Vader's Redemption: is it merely that "Blood is Thicker than Water?"

Vader certainly does the right thing and fulfills the prophecy in Return of the Jedi when he is already mortally wounded and throws Palpatine to his death. Why does he do this? Is this because he finally realizes everything he has done since his "turn" was wrong, or is it merely continuing the very behavior that made him "turn" in the first place?

Here is my point: Anakin/Vader is a "put family first" kind of guy, consistantly and throughout the saga. He was very attached to his mother; when she dies he gets medieval on the "Tusken Raiders". When he fears his wife may die, he betrays his friends and comrades and becomes the very thing he was trained to prevent. When he kills Palpatine, it is again out of attachment to family, this time his son Luke. While Lucas clearly sees this as a "redemption" of Vader (he becomes a force ghost), is this convincing? Does Vader truely reject evil and the dark side, or is family really just for him still the most important thing (and therefore, to borrow from Nieztche), "beyond good and evil"? Is his compassion for his son a catalyst for change of character and ideology for Vader, or more of the same behaviour that made Anakin into Vader in the first place?

George Lucas himself is a great family man; he is a terrific father, which isn't easy in the celebrity world he lives in. He has brought up his children alone since his wife left him. For any faults anyone may find, George Lucas is a stand up guy when it comes to family; so we know this is important to him; so is Vader's redemption a vindication of "blood is thicker than water"? Is his progression really one of realizing that compassion for family should lead to actually saving and helping them, as opposed to the revenge (in the case of Shmi) or fear (in the case of Padme)?

Thoughts?

 

This deinitely isn't Vader acting as he did in ROTS. This is Vader showing true compassion and love - letting go of his own attachments and acting selflessly - as a Jedi. Would he have acted this way if it wasnt his son? Nope. It needed something strong to turn Vader back. Seeing his son show the amount of compassion he did despite what he (Vader) had done to him was inspiring enough to draw him back from the darkness and into the light.

Vaderkin finally learned that through letting go, not holding on, you actually get more.

 

Yeah, I'm always a little "leery" about trying to find another explanation for something that has already been explained clearly. What I mean is, sure, it's fun to speculate on a lot of "unanswered" Star Wars stuff, but in this case (as you say yourself), Lucas--who wrote the stories--WROTE into ROTJ that Anakin was indeed "redeemed" because we see him become a Force ghost. Period, end of story. So the way I see it, you MUST go with the intention of the AUTHOR of the story!

This isn't like Anakin/Vader was a real person, and some guy named George gave us his OPINION on what happened with this character. If that were the case, then we could debate Anakin's true motives until the shaak come home. But since Lucas is the SOURCE of the character, his "interpretation" (if you will) is the correct one.

 

Anakin's decisions weren't really for his family, they were for himself, in the PT. It was all about how he felt if he lost his family and since he couldn't accept that he would lose them, he did what he did. When it comes to Luke, it is because this is his son, but it is also more than that. Anakin sees himself in his son. Sees what he could've been had he chosen correctly. He realizes what he has lost by turning his back on his loved ones, in his pursuit of power. So he comes to understand the price he has paid and he realizes that Luke is the one good thing he ever did. He starts to think of his son more than he does of himself, which a good parent should do. And in thinking of Luke, he chooses to save him in a way that is more in line with the Jedi philosophy rather than the Sith's. If it was someone who wasn't as close to him as Luke, he wouldn't give two cents.

As to what Lucas himself says...

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

Anakin Skywalker's final confrontation with the Emperor occurs during Luke's final confrontation with the Emperor, which compliments his father's dealings with the same man many years earlier, Indeed the life of the father and the life of the son are commentaries on each other.

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221

"You learn that Darth Vader isn?t this monster. He?s a pathetic individual who made a pact with the Devil and lost. And he?s trapped. He?s a sad, pathetic character, not a big evil monster. I mean, he?s a monster in that he?s turned to the Dark Side and he?s serving a bad master and he?s into power and he?s lost a lot of his humanity. In that way, he?s a monster, but beneath that, as Luke says in Return of the Jedi, early on, ?I know there?s still good in you, I can sense it.? Only through the love of his children and the compassion of his children, who believe in him, even though he?s a monster, does he redeem himself."

--George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, ?Star Wars: The Last Battle,? Vanity Fair, 2005

"And obviously there are two sides to the redeemer motif in the Star Wars films. Ultimately Vader is redeemed by his children and especially by having children. Because that's what life is all about?procreating and raising children, and it should bring out the best of you."

--George Lucas.

 

Major irony here: Just as Anakin/Vader brought balance to the Force through his actions, here we have "Darth Sinister" bringing "balance" to this thread. Bravo, DS!

 

I see it as Vader had a choice. He knew of Leia, so he could have let Luke die and tried to entice Leia to the dark side. If he were acting out of attachment on DSII, then he too would have let Luke die, because the whole reason he's trying to save Padme in RotS is because HE can't live without her. It's about how he feels. Therefore, Vader, acting in attachment, isn't about sacrafice, it's about him carrying on a relationship when he is alive,too. Vader giving up his power, the Empire, etc. it's about sacrafice. He's willing to die to save his son. RotS is not about that. It's about Anakin saving Padme because of how he will feel without her.

 

Both of you two, Sinister and Poppy, are spot on.

 

I don't think it was merely blood is thicker than water.

in ROTJ he says to Luke '' It's too late for me'' this sentence show clearly that he realise that the dark side is not the way, that what he's doing is wrong and even that the idea of going aways with Luke apeal to him.
but ''once you go to the dark side forever it will dominate your destiny'' it doesn't think it's possible. the belief of the jedi and the sith is that once you turned their's no way back. he firmly believed Anakin Skywalker was dead and buried.
I don't think he made a conscious decission too turn back, I think it was more a case of '' screw Palpatine, the dark side, and master yoda I' not letting my son die!!!''

in ROTS he was a very young and unprepared father to be scared out of his wits with a dying wife and (so he believed)nobody to turn to but Palpatine.
when Padmé died I think he just lost the will to live, to fight. Anakin had always been a passionate man and the darth Vader of a new hope wasn't, he was mechanical, going to the motion but not really caring any way.
the discovery of his son awakened his interest in what was happening around him and I think that from that point he would have turned back anyways for someone he felt connected to.

 

Is it merely that "blood is thicker than water"?

No - in the sense that the realisation that he had was far more profound that that.

Yes - in the sense that he wouldn't have come to the realisation had it not been for a member of his family.

 

The problem we have about Vader's redemption at the end of ROTJ is that he very conveniently dies after this takes place. What would have happened had he lived? How would the Rebels have dealt with him? Would they have put him on trial for war crimes? Would Luke's public defence of his father, if this had happened, have caused serious divisions in the Alliance? I'm interested to know what people think.

 

I think that would have depended on whether the public at large knew who Darth Vader really was. If the galaxy at large didn't know that Vader was the Jedi once known as Anakin Skywalker, it would have been possible to pass him as Anakin, who came out of hiding and defeated Vader. They would have had to alter his armor, though.

 

Yet, if he had survived, people would be wondering how...to quote Obi-Wan Kenobi, "He's more machine now, than man", and he was receiving the Force lightning from the Emperor as he scooped him up. Vader, and really, anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of electricity, would know that if he picks up a guy spewing lighting, and his life is dependent on electrical systems, it doesn't take a genius to reason that his actions would cause the lighting to short out his life support systems. Darth Vader saving Luke from Palpatine's lightning was sacrificing his life. Vader must have known that by doing that, his electrical systems that sustain him would fail, and he would die. He chose to do it anyway. His death was inevitable once he chose to save Luke...

But, for the sake of argument, lets say he defies all odds, and miraculously, and completely illogically, survives. We actually have an EU example of this, with Kyp Durron. If Darth Vader becomes Anakin Skywalker again, (shoot, lets even say he ditches the black Vader costume for an all white version, what the heck!) the Alliance would be foolish to execute him. A reformed Anakin Skywalker offers a WEALTH of valuable information that would have saved them years in fighting the Imperial Remnants. Anakin Skywalker killed the Emperor, and combined with his own conversion back to the Light, still destroyed the Sith. From Luke's point of view, if you are the Alliance, do you want to be the guy to sign the execution order for the father of Princess Leia and Luke Skywalker? Do you want to be the guy that kills the two most prominent figures in the entire Alliance's father? I wouldn't...I think if I were a New Republic Tribunal member or something, I would argue that Anakin Skywalker's punishment for all his crimes as Darth Vader would be to restore the Jedi Order, to help bring peace to the galaxy he helped wage war in...Is it perfect? no. Does it essentially mean that Vader gets away with his crimes? Kinda. But, governments rarely make decisions based on altruism, instead basing decisions on whats most politically expedient. Turning Anakin Skywalker into an ambassador for justice would be a politically expedient way for him to atone for his actions as Vader. He is a war criminal, for sure. That is not going to be in dispute. However, he is far more beneficial to the fledging New Republic alive, as an ally than he would be dead. The New Republic incorporated many former Imperial officers who committed war crimes, in fact, many of the Rebellion's leaders could be described that way.

 

Had Anakin survived what he had done, he would've gone on trial if that's what the Alliance wanted him to do. He would be defended by Luke for his crimes. And if he is allowed to, he would dedicate himself to helping to rebuild the Jedi Order and the Republic. He would spend the rest of his life making up for his crimes, by saving lives and maintaining the peace.

 

Its a good thing he died , because if he would have lived..he would of been put on trial, but i dont think luke would defend him torturing his sister,think how she would of felt i would feel betrayed by luke. Who knows when the next "evil" guy come around he would prob turn bad again... i think he just redeemed himself because he knew he was gonna die.and he was acting out of selfishness not because luke was his son.. or he would of stopped the emperor earlier, than at the last minute.

 

Nice conjecture, but we don't know that. If the movies have taught us anything it is that redemption in the SW universe doesn't work the same as it does in the real world. Maybe the alliance would have brought him to trial, but there's also a high probability that they wouldn't have done anything. There's a chance that he would have helped Luke, but it's also a high possibility that he would have left to live the rest of his years out as a hermit. However it's just as strong of a possibility that he did save Luke simply because he was blood and he wouldn't pass up the chance to lead the Empire now that the Emperor was gone.

 

I always believed that Anakin's redemption came purely from Luke's faith that he wasn't a lost cause just because of his past. Luke keeps telling him theres still good in him, that he can feel it even when Vader cannot. Luke's belief in his father shows him that no matter what, there is someone who still believes in Anakin Skywalker.

Vader/Anakin gives up his hold on the galaxy in order to save his son who became the jedi Anakin always wished to be. The jedi he should've been but didn't have the strength at the time.

 

He couldn't have done it for that reason. If he had, then he would have just been another Sith apprentice overthrowing his master, and he never would have appeared next to Ben and Yoda on Endor as a Force ghost. But, he DOES appear alongside Ben and Yoda, which is a clear indication that his return to the Light was genuine, and devoid of a wish to merely run the Empire instead of Palpatine. Sorry, but Endor proves that Anakin Skywalker fully returned to the Light, and his saving Luke was done so out of love, not potential political gain.

 

Yes, that's what actually happens, but we're talking about a hypothetical situation where Anakin survives. If he survives I think it'
s hard to brush aside the fact that this man who has always had a lust for power would not even consider or possibly take the chance to become the Emperor himself.

 

But, even if he survived, his motivation for saving Luke remains Light-Side oriented. He doesn't return to the Light Side because he dies, he returns to the Light because of his actions in protecting Luke from the Emperor. Whether he lived or died, his actions shifted him back to the Light. He was not merely trying to overthrow the Emperor so that he and Luke could take over. His shift occurred because of his actions, not his death, and because we see what happens to him after he dies, we know that his conversion back was genuine. That would not change had he survived.

 

He converted in a heated moment, who's to say that a man that has already switched sides twice wouldn't switch sides yet again when he realizes that now he can obtain his ultimate goal, ultimate power and control of the universe?

 

If one is going to criticize Vader for killing Palpatine to save his son's life, one might as well criticize Luke for desperately trying to achieve redemption for Vader, because the latter was his father.

 

Luke forgave his father for all his crimes. That's what compassion is. It is unconditional love. Whether Leia would forgive her father, is not the point. Luke would defend his father. Both would admit to the guilt that lays at the feet of Anakin, but both would acknowledge that if given a second chance, Anakin would right all the wrongs. Anakin turned on Palpatine because he saw the truth when Luke refused to turn. When Luke had his father at his mercy, it was the Invisible Hand all over again. But whereas Anakin failed by killing Dooku, Luke succeeds in throwing down his saber. The two men finally see each other. Luke sees what made his father fall and why. He rejects it. Anakin sees himself in Luke. Seeing what he could've been had he not been weak. Anakin always had the physical power, he just lacked the emotional strength to resist the temptations of evil. When he watched Luke being tortured, he realized all of his mistakes were his fault and not the fault of Obi-wan or Padme. He realized that his son was willing to die for him, because he still loved him despite the bad things he did. He couldn't let his son die for that. If anyone should die, it should be himself. And so he choses to save his son, which will kill him in the process. It was at that moment that he turned back from the dark side. Luke had already redeemed his father, because of his nobility and his compassion. When Anakin dies, he dies as a good man.

Anakin no longer cares about power. He sees that power offers nothing except loneliness, an emptyness. He's seen what his thrist for power and control has gotten him. That's why he tells Luke that it is too late for him. He knows that he has lost everything and yet he lacks the courage and the strength to go back. Had he lived, he would not turn again. He knew that he was not the one wise enough to rule and that the man who worshipped that power, was opposed and defeated.

 

Who is criticizing Vader for killing Palpatine? I think your comment was directed at me, and I'd really like to know where I'm criticizing Vader for killing Palpatine? Vader made a decision in a heated moment and he killed Palpatine, and at no point did I criticize him for doing as such. I think it's very short sighted for people to forget that this is a man who turned from the Jedi Order once before in a search for ultimate power. Now after years of being second fiddle should he have survived he would have his chance for ultimate power at last. I fully believe that he wouldn't have taken control of the Empire and declared himself Emperor, but I also think it's equally plausible that he would have done the opposite and declared himself Emperor just so that he could be in control like he had coveted for the last 20+ years.

 

I agree with what you are saying.


On another note:
leia's forgiveness does have something to do with luke also he is attached to his sister and like a big brother he is protective of her (hence why he so mad at vader in rotj for vaders comment on turning leia to the darkside).Its like this title of the thread is called blood is thicker than water..imo ..up to a point.but the movie is the movie so i go with what gl made and he wanted to show blood is thicker than water..but come on vader was bad for 20 years and up till the very end til hes dying and knows he is dying confesses.hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

Luke forgave his father for all his crimes. That's what compassion is. It is unconditional love.


Or one can describe Luke's actions with the phrase - "blood is thicker than water".