Vader's suit -- Was Palpatine trying to keep Vader weak on purpose?

I just watched ROTS again. While watching the final scenes a thought occurred to me that did not leave me alone. Did Vader really need the suit? Why could they not just clone the organs necessary, I mean they cloned whole people? I think it was a way for Palpertine to control the powers of the chosen one. Without the suit Vader was helpless and could not attempt to overthrow the Sith Lord, or so he thought. Vader's dependency on Palpertine meant Palpertine could keep an eye out for possible rebellion and crush it as soon as it arose.

What do you guys think?

Kignt_AlSidre



Butt Edit: This week, I edited this post.
TLJ Edit: but you didn't correct "Palpatine"? That's week.

 

Also, I always found it very curious how Palpatine had that perfectly fitting* unique armor readily available just when Anakin happened to lose 3 limbs and burn up.


(*if badly designed/engineered, see Dark Lord )

 

1) Vader was very, very badly damaged. This is confirmed in RoDV.

2) The answer is probably yes - he limited him to some extent. He also explicitly points out that he can easily kill Vader by overloading his sensitive mechanical body.

Over the years Vader would have made amendments to the suit himself.

But as I was reminded in the PT forum recently, it is Science Fantasy as opposed to Science Fiction.

If this were hard science fiction, Vader would have had new limbs and would have been almost 100% healed (in my estimation - I do not care to debate it)

 

The answer to your question is no. Palpatine placed Vader in the suit to save his life. Though we learn from Dark Lord that it was lackluster, Vader has already begun to upgrade the suit by the end of the novel. Check out the duel on Bespin--Vader looks downright graceful in the suit, I doubt it's much of a hinderence by then. Palpatine also comments in Dark Lord that Vader still can become as powerful as he was destined, but at the momment, he cannot, because he hasn't fully given himself to the Dark side. The suit wasn't an issue.

 

Welcome to CT!

To answer your question, I used to think that Palpatine was trying to keep him weak too. Putting him in a big clunky suit like that seemed to confirm that. The more I thought about it, though, the more I stopped thinking so. The book Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader confirmed that Vader was upgrading it already anyway (as has been pointed out above), and if I remember correctly then that's only a few weeks or months after ROTS. Besides, like LV66 said, the suit doesn't seem like it's really holding him back come TESB. He's adapted to it and is still one of the most powerful and feared men in the galaxy.

I would also think that, before Luke was discovered, Palpatine would have expected and welcomed Vader turning on him at some point. That was basically understood by Dark Lords under the Rule of Two from Darth Bane onward. If you read Darth Bane - Rule of Two, he was fully prepared to have Zannah usurp his mantle from him when she was ready because that was the nature of what he created, and it would also show that he had taught her well and had not failed as her master. Palpatine may have had a perverted view of that considering the fact that he had become the dictator of the galaxy, but I'm sure he at least understood it.

 

Thanks for welcoming me to the board.

I was planning on reading Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, but I got banned form the only bookstore in this kriffing town. So I have to scrape my last bit of money up and but it on Amazon. I heard that Vader gets really obsessed with taking down the few Jedi Knights that are left.

I was just astounded where Palpetine suddenly got the armor from, it was as if he expected for Vader to be cut down. Well he is a Sith Lord and more than able to look into the future with the help of the Force.

Yah the rule of two. Every apprentice will eventually overthrow his master, or the Master will dispose of the apprentice and take a more worthy one. I liked Dooku's spider comparison in Yoda- Dark Rendezvous .

From what we have seen of Anakin/Vader's nature, it would make sense that he made a few modifications to the suit. And he was definitely very graceful during the battle of Bespin. For me Bespin was one of the most powerful scenes in the saga.

I have to go and look if I can find a few Euros behind the couch to buy Dark Lord.

Knight_AlSidre

 

Well I've never once bought into the whole idea that Vader is weak because he's now in the suit (or lacking more body parts - I don't care what GL says). As mentioned before, Vader did just fine in ESB. It seems like the weak perception is more from Luke coming around and putting self-doubt in Vader in what he had become. I don't think he truely believed it anymore after his first encounter with Luke. So, to answer the question, no - I think Palpatine did what was necessary to keep him alive, and don't think it hampered him at all. One's ability to use the Force can over-come quite a lot.

 

OK, I have skimmed RoDV again and I may have been wrong.

It is Vader who thinks that Palpatine may have purposely weakened him.

 

Excuse me, but how can anybody be honestly banned from a bookstore?

 

Indeed.

I was wondering too.

 

I tried to nick a star wars CD and was ought and was baned form the store. I payed for what I did and have not stolen ever since. I know i acted like an idiot and rued the day i decided to take something that did not belong to me. I would really appreciate it if you do not judge me on what happened.

I am still amazed how one movie trilogy can bring so many people from all over the world together.

Thanks for replying everyone and for being such an unknowing newbe.

knight_AlSidre

 

Not to worry, I nicked a piece of candy when I was 5 years old and when I got caught I lied on top of it and told the store owner I thought it was free. She laughed and said 'nothing is free, but you go ahead and keep it honey.' For my third sin that day, instead of being greatful to the store owner, I thought something like 'what a sucker'. Since it was only worth 5 cents, I am sure she was just being nice. But I am happy to report that just being caught was enough to stop me from ever doing so again. lol.

As for Vader, I think he did lose some of his potential by losing his limbs. But I also agree that the 'Anakin' inside kept him from fully being able to embrace the dark side. Otherwise I think he would have grown quite powerful indeed - not quite up to Anakin's potential, but greater than he actually did.

 

If this were hard science fiction, Vader would have had new limbs and would have been almost 100% healed

Yep. The thing that gets me, is that it was already proved that they could replace his arm, and it looked pretty normal. And the legs should be almost the same things. So the full body suit wasnt really needed IMO. Just maybe a breathing pack on his back maybe.

 

This has also been bothering me for a long time. If you can clone a person, you can clone body parts. I can see the suit as a temporary necessity, until his limbs were grown, etc. But, honestly, they clearly had the technology to clone him new arms and new legs, and then graft them on. They also could have cloned or repaired his damaged lungs, allowing him to breath normally. There is simply no logical scientific explanation as to why Darth Vader should still be in the suit by the time we get to ANH.

Barring a scientific (based on what we see in Star Wars, not based on real, Earth based science) explanation, Vader keeps the suit, because of other reasons. Darth Vader, as the black suited monster, is far more terrifying than Anakin Skywalker is. Further, a lot of people in the Republic/Empire would recognize Anakin's face...Sure, Yoda and Kenobi knew that Anakin became a Sith named Darth Vader, but, how many other people outside of Palpatine's Inner Circle would know that? Perhaps they kept the suit to hide Darth Vader's true identity.

Then, we do have to remember that Anakin Skywalker is very skilled at mechanical engineering. By the time he was nine, he built a pod from scratch and managed to assemble a protocol droid to the point of functionality. There is no doubt in my mind that by the time we get to ANH, that Darth Vader has seriously upgraded all of the hardware he could in the suit. Darth Vader, circa ANH through ROTJ, is MUCH stronger than the Darth Vader we see at the end of ROTS. He is comfortable in his suit, he has upgraded the suit to better suit his needs, he has customized it, pimped it out, or what have you.

Lastly, I can see a psychological reason why even if he could have a normal body again, why Darth Vader might have chosen to keep the suit, even if he hated it. He had nothing left, as Anakin Skywalker. As Anakin Skywalker, mother was dead, his wife and child were dead (as far as he knew) by his own hands...the hands of Anakin Skywalker. The Jedi were dead, again, by the hands of Anakin Skywalker. Even though he had taken the name Darth Vader, prior to Mustafar, he would still have associated the face in the mirror as Anakin...Everything he held close to him as Anakin Skywalker was gone. By keeping the suit, as Darth Vader, he didn't face the constant reminders of who he used to be. Darth Vader didn't lose his family, Anakin did. As long as he is inside that demonic black suit, he doesn't have to fully accept the losses he incurred as Anakin.

Based on that reasoning, I cannot come to the conclusion that Palpatine was intentionally trying to keep him weak. Perhaps weaker physically, maybe not as strong in the Force, but Darth Vader was perhaps a stronger Sith Lord because of the barriers the suit gave him against his former life. Had Darth Vader had his parts replaced, and remained a human Sith Lord, as he would have been without the damage done to him on Mustafar, he would have been stronger in the Force, stronger than Palpatine. But, he would have been far more psychologically fragile.

 

I remembering reading a fan fiction (can't recall the name, but it's considered a classic) that featured this idea prominently as Luke rehabilitated Vader after ROTJ. I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with it, but I'd never considered the possibility before, so it was interesting. I'd always assumed that Palpatine considered Vader's loyalty beyond reproach (at least until it became apparent that his children had resurfaced).

 

Personally, I think Palpatine should have worn a mask. His face was disfigured far worse than Anakins.

 

Maybe the fact that he did not clone himself new limbs was because of the guilt felt. He felt that he deserved everything that had happened to him, because he failed the ones he loved, especially Padme. So he would welcome the pain as a way to repent for his sins and as a reminder what had brought him here.


Knight-AlSidre

 

Hasnt Palps heard of Kolto? really does work wonders.

 

he might actually not have, because Kolto had been outdated at that point for centuries and replaced by the much better Bacta

which still couldn't work wonders - actually, I'd assume some Bacta was involved in keeping Vader alive after the burning, but perhaps not enough...

 

I would have assumed that as well ( too bad we didn't see it in the film ). I find bacta's absence from all of the films in the saga other than TESB somewhat shocking.

 

Kinda how Batman is more terrifying than Bruce Wayne.

This I'm unsure about. After all, couldn't Palpatine and his lackeys just have spun it that Anakin was the sole Jedi to remain loyal to the Republic? In that case, his reputation as a hero of the Republic (and now the Empire) could've actually been increased.

This seems likely more or less, but even before the damage done to him on Mustafar, Anakin was hopelessly enslaved to Palpatine and his manipulations. While putting him in the Vader suit may not have been the plan the Emperor had in mind (some could argue it was), it definitely falls in line with Palpatine's approach to handling Anakin. Somehow, I don't see Palps as being very concerned about maintaining the Rule of Two.

 

I agree. Bacta is not all that it was cracked up to be in the ESB. In fact, its absense almost leads one to believe its presense in ESB is a cheap home cure recipe. Kind of like dipping Luke in chicken soup.

 

Bacta, tractor beams, ion cannons... why is so much tech from TESB never mentioned again in the entire film series?

 

Tractor beams were in ANH.

 

Yeah, I know. When I said "never mentioned again" I meant in any of the films released after TESB.