Was Anakin Solo more powerful than Jacen Solo

IN star by star when Anakin is killed by the Yuzhan Vong he becoomes pure light. In the Unifying force Jacen does the same, he hears his grandather's voice Pointing out that only these two have been able to master the Unifying force.
2 things
1. When does Anakin Skywalker perform the Unifying Force?
2. Has Anakin Solo already perfoormeed the Unifying force? When Yooda dies in RoTJ hhe does light up neither dooes Obi-Wan whhen he is struck dowwn. This leads to the only conclusion thhat Anakin has been able to master the unfying force. If he has,how hhasn't he been able to survive. Jacen was able to to fight omni wiith the force surely Ankkin could take on a battalion of Yuzhan Vong with it.

 

It's rather hard to answer that now, since Anakin is pretty dead, lol (at least until DR realizes how much cash they could make off a well-done return). But potentially, or midi-chorloian-wise, Anakin was the strongest of the Solo kids, stronger than Luke, and possibly more powerful than Anakin Skywalker.

 

But potentially, or midi-chorloian-wise, Anakin was the strongest of the Solo kids, stronger than Luke, and possibly more powerful than Anakin Skywalker.

That is not true.

Anakin Solo was the strongest in the force of the Solo Kids (Star By Star, New Rebellion, Interview that came with the TUF CD).

He, and no one else in Star Wars is stronger or more powerful than Luke Skywalker - with the exception of Anakin Skywalker, who had the potential to be greater than his son, but lost it - (All the books, Databank, GL, RPG guides - basically all the sources).

Anakin Solo was powerful - compared to the new generation Jedi, not Luke, Anakin, Yoda and the old ones.

Many people believed that Anakin Solo would one day take Luke's mantle as the most powerful Jedi (ie his successor), though it was still potential, since no one else would even come near Luke.

IN star by star when Anakin is killed by the Yuzhan Vong he becoomes pure light. In the Unifying force Jacen does the same, he hears his grandather's voice Pointing out that only these two have been able to master the Unifying force.

Jacen does not does the same in TUF. He thinks he heard his Grandfather's voice. In TUF, Jacen Solo was used by the force, and as he himself understood, he would never again achieve that level. Ie it had nothing to do with his own power, but it was a destined one time only feat where the force used him.

Anakin Solo went out in a blaze of glory, but Neither have mastered the Unifying Force. The Unifying force is not something that gives power. It has to do with destiny alone (GL). That is why Jacen was used by the force and as he understood he would never again achieve that level. The living force is what has to do with power.

There's no "mastering the Unifying Force" as it is the part of the force which has to do with destiny. Surrendering to the will of the force - it is something that Luke, Yoda, Obi-Wan and all the great masters of the old have always been doing.

1. When does Anakin Skywalker perform the Unifying Force?

There is no such thing as "performing the Unifying Force". Jacen was used by the force in a never again possible feat, which had nothing to do with his power.

Has Anakin Solo already perfoormeed the Unifying force?

There's no such thing as "performing the Unifying Force". As GL mentioned, it has to do with destiny, not power.

When Yooda dies in RoTJ hhe does light up neither dooes Obi-Wan whhen he is struck dowwn. This leads to the only conclusion thhat Anakin has been able to master the unfying force.

Becoming one with the force has nothing to do with the Unifying force. The Unifying force has to do with destiny alone. All the others, including becoming one with the force has to do with the living force - which will be explained in Ep-3.

Jacen was able to to fight omni wiith the force surely Ankkin could take on a battalion of Yuzhan Vong with it.

It had nothing to do with Jacen's own power. As he himelf understood, he was used by the force (the conduit) in a feat that is never again possible.

There's no such thing as "performing the Unifying Force". Anakin wasn't used by the force, Jacen was. Anakin was simply fighting to his death, using up all his power as he understood he would go down.


Living Force = Everything power, one with the force etc. The Key of the force.

Unifying Force = Destiny, where one could choose to follow the destiny or not. Jacen was used in that never again possible event-feat by the force as his destiny.

Answer to the question - Anakin Solo was indeed the most powerful of the Solo Kids, even though he wasn't the one used by the force - which has to do with destiny. His destiny, he fulfilled.

 

Just because Onimi was technically the SO, doesn't mean that he was all powerful. He was still a single Shamed One.

 

Just because Onimi was technically the SO, doesn't mean that he was all powerful. He was still a single Shamed One.

Indeed. He was a shaper, without the power or might of the mightly overlord (like Shimrra), that's why he needed Shimrra and had to stay near him all the time, to stay alive - otherwise the other Vong, most of whom hated him, would kill him immediately.

 

You're assuming Jacen isn't simply delusional at the end of TUF...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

A few points I know Anakin's fans will love to hear:

1. No where in SbS does it say Anakin is more powerful than Jacen. Re-read that section which states Anakin is the most powerful among the group. Jacen is conspicuously absent from that group. Read from that what you will but you cannot say the NJO books and/or SbS said that Anakin is more powerful than Jacen when it simply isn't true.



2. Jacen soundly defeated Anakin in a lightsaber duel in VP. Re-read that duel, it wasn't even close! Not only was it not close, VP specifically goes out of its way to note in all of their duels, Anakin hadn't defeated Jacen even once!



3. Of course, you may interpret Anakin's progression after VP so much faster that you believe Anakin is clearly stronger. I will of course disagree because Jacen progresses in his own right, with and without the Force after VP. And VP was pretty clear about the fact that Anakin couldn't defeat Jacen even once.



4. Belittle Jacen's fight against Onimi all you want, but there's a reason why it was last (a la Luke's climactic rescue of Anakin Skywalker in RotJ). In fact, did you notice all the NJO hardcovers have Jacen doing something important during the climax, the end? VP, BP, SbS, DW, and TUF.

 

I believe that in the beginning of the NJO Jacen was stronger but over time Anakin grew stronger while Jacen became more undecided.

The force used Jacen at the end of TUF but I still say that doesn't compare to when the force saved Luke near the end of The Courtship of Princess Leia!

 

You could say Luke was using the force in CoPL. It's true that he communicated with the life which gives the force, but life creates the force after all, Luke is able to mingle with life at the deeper level where they generate the force. Also as he observed, there were levels of control that he never thought possible before that which he did there.

 

Lilo J " the masters of old for example Luke, Obi Wan, Yoda"
when have these 3 OR any jedi been able to join the Unifyiing Force. Luke as far as I know hasn't in all the books i hhave read ( which well may not b evry single boook) but as far i know hhe hasnt. HHe himself questions Jacen on the Unifying Force on Zonama Sekkot. Thiis also leads to has Obi Wan then been able to fulfill his destiny of the Unifyiing force. Surely 5 minutes inside the Millenium falcom would be enough time to explain it. Then the obvious question did Yoda know if neither Luke ( who was Yoda's lastt student) and Obi Wan one of his closest Knights surely he wudve passed it on. Especially to Obi Wan who could ve used this in both AOTC or RoS. Luke couldve fulfilled his destiny earlier and with les effort if he knew the beginnings to the unifying force instead oof questionng jacen 20 years later on Zonooma sekot

 

when have these 3 OR any jedi been able to join the Unifyiing Force

The Unifying force has to do with Destiny. No one can "join" it. They become one with the force, knowing the secret of the force which would be explained in Ep-3, which is a key part of what Luke does in RoTJ.

Luke as far as I know hasn't in all the books i hhave read ( which well may not b evry single boook) but as far i know hhe hasnt.

Read above. It's because there is no such things joining the Unifying force. There's becoming one with the force and retaining the identity, which has to do with Ep-3

HHe himself questions Jacen on the Unifying Force on Zonama Sekkot. Thiis also leads to has Obi Wan then been able to fulfill his destiny of the Unifyiing force.

So what if he questions Jacen on what he and Vergere thinks? He never accepted their views of there being no dark side of the force - the wrong philosophy. Obi-Wan's destiny? The Unifying Force is destiny. It is the part of the force which manages destiny. Obi-Wan's destiny is different from anyone and everyone else's.

Surely 5 minutes inside the Millenium falcom would be enough time to explain it.

Why should he? It's GL who explained outside of the movies that it has to do with destiny. That everyone has a destiny is something that most characters in Star Wars seem to know already "It is your destiny".

Then the obvious question did Yoda know if neither Luke ( who was Yoda's lastt student) and Obi Wan one of his closest Knights surely he wudve passed it on.

The Unifying Force is not a different kind of force or some deep secret. There's nothing to pass on. They have their destiny - the Unifying Force is the aspect of the force which manages destiny, and each person has the option to follow that destiny or not.

Especially to Obi Wan who could ve used this in both AOTC or RoS.

What do you mean "use this". There's nothing to be used. Jacen's destiny was being used by the force in that particular event. What has that got to do with others? They all had their particular destiny. Not everyone's destiny is the same.

Luke couldve fulfilled his destiny earlier and with les effort if he knew the beginnings to the unifying force instead oof questionng jacen 20 years later on Zonooma sekot

Luke already fulfilled his destiny at the end of RoTJ, choosing to follow it than reject it. Questioning Jacen? He was probing about the wrong teachings of Vergere and what's wrong with asking questions?

And why should he know the beginnings to the Unifying Force? The Unifying Force is not something that the Jedi "use". It's the part of the force that has to do with destiny. What can be "used" is the living force.
Luke himself foresaw that it was not his destiny, and that it would be someone new - it was Jacen's particular destiny to be used by the force at that moment, for that event. No one else. Everyone else have their own destinies and they are different.

There's no "doing" the Unifying Force. As GL explained, it is the part of the force which has to do with destiny - where people choose either to follow that destiny or reject it.

The living force is the key to the force. Yoda, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn knows it well, and there are certain events in Ep-3 which has to do with it. What Luke does at the very end of RoTJ - fulfilling his destiny, has a connection to it as well.

Destiny - each person has a different destiny. Originally this particular destiny was supposed to be Anakin's, and Jacen was supposed to be killed. However, GL switched those roles around - presumably to avoid confusion with having 2 Anakins, and that particular destiny became Jacen's. One person's destiny has nothing to with another's. Luke kept Jacen alive long enough, and guided him to fulfill his destiny - from the slavemasters, from the Vong warriors and the slayers, from Shimrra and gave him the direction to leave the lightsaber and go - so that Jacen could fulfill his destiny. The will of the force works in mysterious ways - though controlled

 

In terms of sheer Force strength--and by that I mean the physical capabilities like jumping and TK and stuff like that--, I would have to say that Anakin just barely edges past Jacen. But Jacen was and still is the more powerful of the two Solos in terms of skill and connection to the Force.

Aside from the obvious evidence of this like Anakin's incapability of beating Jacen and the fact that he's, well, dead , it was stressed repeatedly from VP onwards that Jacen was different from his siblings in that he alone had problems trying to reconcile himself with the unbalancing nature of war. Whereas many people might see this as weak, I see it as a deeply rooted connection to the Force that no other Jedi besides Luke displayed. It has been constantly reaffirmed again and again that the Force is life and visa versa, regardless of motive or cause. If that is to be believed, then war--an act that necessarily ends life/the Force--would bother and distress anyone who's entire life and power is centered around it. Jacen's indesciveness is symbollic of his the Force's attempts to prevent the loss of life in all its forms, be it the members of the GFFA or the Vong. That Jacen is struck with the Force's pain and indecision shows just how deeply rooted in it he is.

Granted, that's all a bit of a stretch, so here's some more obvious evidence:
1. Jacen was able to pinpoint distinct human signatures within the Force on several occasions, like when he saved Danni in VP and Anakin and Tahiri in EoV. Anakin could barely even find Tahiri when they were on the same planet.
2. It was Jacen, not Anakin, who recieved the pivotal dream in BP, and it was Jacen who Anakin Skywalker (which I know is open for debate) chose to contact.
3. Jacen was the most capable of the Jedi strike team in dealing with the mind meld and it's implications in SbS, as well as the coordination of the armed forces in DW.
4. Anakin's death was felt in the Force only by Luke and Leia. Jacen's removal from the Force was felt by every Jedi in the galaxy.
5. In TR it is revealed that Jacen is in tune with a "frequency" in the Force that none of the Jedi can reach, allowing him to bond with alien and Vong-formed creatures.
6. The Force never spoke to Luke about Anakin like it did about Jacen's destiny in DW.
7. Jacen connected with the Unifying Force, a feat only the Chosen One was able to reach before.
8. Anakin's ladies: A hippie-like sandworm from Tatooine and a promiscuos Twi'lek
Jacen's ladies: A rocket scientist and the queen of like, 500 planets.

 

In TR it is revealed that Jacen is in tune with a "frequency" in the Force that none of the Jedi can reach, allowing him to bond with alien and Vong-formed creatures.


It said "the other Jedi" - and perhaps that doesn't include the Masters. And from what Luke has displayed before - his own empathy towards life and creatures, that excludes him. The Vong creature - empahty has to do with the slaveseed implant which enabled him to do it, as the Starwars.com databank explains. That is what gave him the "vongsense" which allowed him to bond with the Vong creatures like the normal creatures.

The Force never spoke to Luke about Anakin like it did about Jacen's destiny in DW.

The force already told Luke enough about that it would be one of the new people whose destiny would be to be the key. It's Vergere who spoke to Jacen - and filled his mind with the wrong ideas of the force, but that's something else entirely.

Jacen connected with the Unifying Force, a feat only the Chosen One was able to reach before.


That's not true. Not only did Anakin Skywalker NOT reach the Unifying Force - the Unifying force is not something that cannot be just "reached". Anakin, before becoming Vader, only does a lot of evil things. At the end when Anakin returned when Vader was gone, he became one with the force like Yoda and Obi-Wan which has to do with the living force. Ep-3 will sow more on that. Anakin, Yoda, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn became one with the force which has to do with the living force, not the Unifying force. Surrender to the will of the force is something that Luke and the old masters of the old were always doing, ie they were always in touch with it - the part of the force which dictates destiny. Jacen here, was used force this event because it was his destiny here. However, Luke and the other masters were always in touch with the Unifying force - surrendering to the will of the force. It's not a "feat", because the Unifying Force has to do with destiny.

Jacen being used for his destiny doesn't make him better than Anakin. It has been twice mentioned (Not New Rebellion, but it was Dark Saber I believe, and the TUF CD interview) that Anakin was the strongest in the force among the Solo kids. Not by a long shot, but Anakin does end up being the one more powerful in the force - their 2 different destinies have not to do with this. Everyone has a destiny, and it's the Unifying Force - that aspect of the force which has to do with destiny. Those who accept the destiny are in touch, and those who refuse are not.

Also, Anakin was shaped to be the main character in the position of Jacen, with the actual destiny at the end being his own..but thanks to meddling by higher powers, the destinies were "Switched" Poor Anakin.

 

It said "the other Jedi" - and perhaps that doesn't include the Masters. And from what Luke has displayed before - his own empathy towards life and creatures, that excludes him. The Vong creature - empahty has to do with the slaveseed implant which enabled him to do it, as the Starwars.com databank explains. That is what gave him the "vongsense" which allowed him to bond with the Vong creatures like the normal creatures.

The slave seed provided an outlet through which Jacen discovered the talent. The slave seed was a living being, and Jacen used his talents to create an empathic bond with it.

No one has the deep connection to the force that Luke has. The force already told Luke enough about that it would be one of the new people whose destiny would be to be the key. It's Vergere who spoke to Jacen - and filled his mind with the wrong ideas of the force, but that's something else entirely.

Vergere spoke to Jacen about UNDERSTANDING the Force, something totally different than what I said. Vergere wasn't around in BP when Jacen recieved the vision, and she was long dead by TUF.

That's not true. Not only did Anakin Skywalker NOT reach the Unifying Force - the Unifying force is not something that cannot be just "reached". Anakkin, Yoda, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn became one with the force which has to do with the living force, not the Unifying force. Surrender to the will of the force is something that Luke and the old masters of the old were always doing, ie they were always in touch with it - the part of the force which dictates destiny. Jacen here, was used force this event because it was his destiny here. However, Luke and the other masters were always in touch with the Unifying force - surrendering to the will of the force. It's not a "feat", because the Unifying Force has to do with destiny.

pg. 470 of "The Unifying Force": "As his grandfather had done, he had broken through the apparent opposites that concealed the absolute nature of the Force, and found his way into an unseen unity that existed beyond the seeming seperateness of the world...a technique once mastered by the Jedi Order but at some point misplaced;".
Earlier in the text, Luke himself admits to focusing on the Living Force and thereby ignoring the Unifying Force. And until ROTS, the claim about Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Yoda can't be considered a valid one, because the answers have not yet been revealed.

 

"Anakin, before becoming Vader, only does a lot of evil things."

Only?

I'd say the millions he saved from slavery and death in the Clone Wars would disagree with you there.

He wasn't called the damn, "Hero with No Fear" for no reason.

 

The slave seed provided an outlet through which Jacen discovered the talent. The slave seed was a living being, and Jacen used his talents to create an empathic bond with it.

The slave seed was the key to the vongsense. It's a living being of course - like every Vong tech being living, but it, like Anakin's crystal and Tahiri's shaping and Luke's contact with Shimrra's poison at the end, are the key to what gave them the vongsense - they act as the conduit.

Vergere spoke to Jacen about UNDERSTANDING the Force, something totally different than what I said. Vergere wasn't around in BP when Jacen recieved the vision, and she was long dead by TUF.

The vision ah, yes that's different.

pg. 470 of "The Unifying Force": "As his grandfather had done, he had broken through the apparent opposites that concealed the absolute nature of the Force, and found his way into an unseen unity that existed beyond the seeming seperateness of the world...a technique once mastered by the Jedi Order but at some point misplaced;".


These explain what Jacen thought at that moment - which aren't true, because we already know from GL that the greater/cosmic/Unifying force - the 2nd part (the other being the living force) has to do with destiny of everyone. It's no technique and it's not something that can be mastered. Those who choose to follow their destiny, are in tune with the Unifying Force, and those who refuse, are not. What's a lot more important than this is the living force (Ep-3) What his grandfather actually did was see the clear 2 sides of the force and willingly choose the evil side, for reasons that're not yet revealed (except in the spoilers) - that which reflects when he tells Luke later - "You don't know the power of the dark side".

Earlier in the text, Luke himself admits to focusing on the Living Force and thereby ignoring the Unifying Force. And until ROTS, the claim about Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Yoda can't be considered a valid one, because the answers have not yet been revealed.

Yes Luke focuses on the living force than the Unifying force - which makes him far greater. Reason - Ep-3 (not revealed yet of course) And I agree that the answers have not yet been revelead and they have to do with spoiler territory, but once the movie comes out they will indeed show it well, that Anakin did nothing special (unlike what Jacen thought) except become evil (as we already know), and that Yoda, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gonn and Anakin (At the end of his life) understood the true nature and meaning of the force (not the unifying/cosmic force which has to do with destiny), which Luke himself did as well


Only?

I'd say the millions he saved from slavery and death in the Clone Wars would disagree with you there.

He wasn't called the damn, "Hero with No Fear" for no reason.

That's true, but in Ep-3 is where the full change happens, and the evil man whom everyone in the galaxy feared is born

 

The slave seed was the key to the vongsense. It's a living being of course - like every Vong tech being living, but it, like Anakin's crystal and Tahiri's shaping and Luke's contact with Shimrra's poison at the end, are the key to what gave them the vongsense.

Anakin was only able to use this Vongsense when the lightsabre was on and in his physical grip. Tahiri is only able to use it because Vong genetics have been intermingled with her own. Luke is able to sense it because of the poison running through his system. Jacen has no contact with the slave seed or any other form of Vong-life, yet he can still use it when no one else can.

These explain what Jacen thought at that moment - which aren't true, because we already know from GL that the greater/cosmic/Unifying force - the 2nd part (the other being the living force) has to do with destiny of everyone. It's no technique and it's not something that can be mastered. Those who choose to follow their destiny, are in tune with the Unifying Force, and those who refuse, are not. What's a lot more important than this is the living force (Ep-3)

Do you have an exact quote where Lucas says this? Yes, destiny is a product of the Force's influence (at least in SW), but destiny and the Force are two different things, and destiny can only be fulfilled when one is in tune with the complete scope of the Force, as Anakin was when he defeated the Emperor and as Jacen was when he defeated Omni. The Unifying Force.

Yes Luke focuses on the living force than the Unifying force - which makes him far greater. Reason - Ep-3 (not revealed yet of course) And I agree that the answers have not yet been revelead and they have to do with spoiler territory, but once the movie comes out they will indeed show it well, that Anakin did nothing special (unlike what Jacen thought) except become evil (as we already know), and that Yoda, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gonn and Anakin (At the end of his life) understood the true nature and meaning of the force (not the unifying/cosmic force which has to do with destiny), which Luke himself did as well

pg. 268, TUF: "Maybe she learned to tap into a power that was more embracing than the Living Force."

"The Unifying Force...I've felt as if the Jedi have been on a quest to recover the Force's power to glimpse the future, which is perhaps the nature of the Unifying Force."

And unless you can provide an authorized copy of the ROTS screenplay, everything else is simply just personal opinion, which is perfectly fine, but can't properly be used in a convincing argument.

 

Anakin was only able to use this Vongsense when the lightsabre was on and in his physical grip. Tahiri is only able to use it because Vong genetics have been intermingled with her own. Luke is able to sense it because of the poison running through his system. Jacen has no contact with the slave seed or any other form of Vong-life, yet he can still use it when no one else can.

Jacen's vong sense was created by the slave seed implant. He needed it's help to escape the Vong. Just like that, Luke's given the start with the poison but it's only the beginning.

Do you have an exact quote where Lucas says this? Yes, destiny is a product of the Force's influence (at least in SW), but destiny and the Force are two different things, and destiny can only be fulfilled when one is in tune with the complete scope of the Force, as Anakin was when he defeated the Emperor and as Jacen was when he defeated Omni. The Unifying Force.

As Luke did when he refused to fight anymore and put his life on the line, as Obi-Wan did when he sacrificed himself to guide Obi-Wan and so on. The Unifying force is what dictates the destiny, and everyone has their own destiny. Like Jacen's particular destiny, everyone has their own and those who choose to accept it like all mentioned above, are in touch with it, and those who refuse, are not. The Unifying force - which has to do with destiny. Destiny of every being. Everyone who chooses to follow their destiny is in tune with it.

"The Force itself breaks into two sides: the living Force and a greater, cosmic Force. The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, etc. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it or not."

"pg. 268, TUF: "Maybe she learned to tap into a power that was more embracing than the Living Force."

The Unifying Force...I've felt as if the Jedi have been on a quest to recover the Force's power to glimpse the future, which is perhaps the nature of the Unifying Force."

And unless you can provide an authorized copy of the ROTS screenplay, everything else is simply just personal opinion, which is perfectly fine, but can't properly be used in a convincing argument.

I can show you Stover's contradictions in the series. That doesn't make what's shown right. The characters are the ones who suffer due to those problems. From what we already know about Ep-3 (except those who don't), the living force is the key.

I don't have to provide you any authorized copy of anything, because what you say there is your personal opinion as well. Whatever argument that you present is your own personal opinion - what I present is mine, just as I have no intention to "prove" anything to you.

I know the spoilers, and I'm fine with it. Even if I provide you with an authorized copy of the novelization or the movie, you or anyone could say it's still my personal opinion, because that's what it is in a discussion. You post yours, and I post mine. It's not to "prove" anything

 

Caine: No where in SbS does it say Anakin is more powerful than Jacen. Re-read that section which states Anakin is the most powerful among the group. Jacen is conspicuously absent from that group. Read from that what you will but you cannot say the NJO books and/or SbS said that Anakin is more powerful than Jacen when it simply isn't true.

Anakin is described as the "strongest" Solobrat down to SbS by both Luceno and Rostoni in the interview at the end of the VP e-book...

Jacen soundly defeated Anakin in a lightsaber duel in VP. Re-read that duel, it wasn't even close! Not only was it not close, VP specifically goes out of its way to note in all of their duels, Anakin hadn't defeated Jacen even once!

Then again, in BP, he can pretty much hold his own against Farmboy...

Of course, you may interpret Anakin's progression after VP so much faster that you believe Anakin is clearly stronger. I will of course disagree because Jacen progresses in his own right, with and without the Force after VP. And VP was pretty clear about the fact that Anakin couldn't defeat Jacen even once.

We can argue it both ways, I think.

Belittle Jacen's fight against Onimi all you want, but there's a reason why it was last (a la Luke's climactic rescue of Anakin Skywalker in RotJ). In fact, did you notice all the NJO hardcovers have Jacen doing something important during the climax, the end? VP, BP, SbS, DW, and TUF.

Oh, yeah. Jacen is clearly set up as the hero - consciously, deliberately so, by both the creative team and certain in-universe characters.

And, yeah, every hardcover ends up with him slaughtering his enemies without blinking. Now sure, I'm not saying that Anakin's perfect - far from it, he's a killer as well. But, regardless of authorial intent, I'd say that Anakin was the brother who actually had some humanity, some willingness to engage with complexity and ambiguity, and deal with his opponents by more than simply wiping them out. Jacen just worries in an abstract manner, and then unleashes Vader-style aggression...

1.) VP - saves Danni. Don't remember much else.
2.) BP - rips things off the wall, throws them around, removes a limb from his enemy. 100% ESB-Vader.
3.) SbS - kills the voxyn queen. After spending the entire novel worrying, he again proves that his morals really mean nothing to him.
4.) DW - makes an Anakin-style "stand" at Ebaq. This looks back to both BP and SbS, and shows that the real, raw Jacen has far more in common with the darker aspects of Anakin's character than his quiet, contemplative public persona suggests.
5.) TUF - gets an orgasm/high from murdering a mentally-ill cripple.

B_B_J_M: 1. Jacen was able to pinpoint distinct human signatures within the Force on several occasions, like when he saved Danni in VP and Anakin and Tahiri in EoV. Anakin could barely even find Tahiri when they were on the same planet.

Good point.

2. It was Jacen, not Anakin, who recieved the pivotal dream in BP, and it was Jacen who Anakin Skywalker (which I know is open for debate) chose to contact.

Yep, it is, rather open to debate. It's also worth pointing out that the dream plays firmly to Jacen's prejudices. Anakin also has regular nightmares, and he has a couple of dreams about himself and Tahiri. And, perhaps, less prejudices...

3. Jacen was the most capable of the Jedi strike team in dealing with the mind meld and it's implications in SbS, as well as the coordination of the armed forces in DW.

Yeah. He's good at control.

4. Anakin's death was felt in the Force only by Luke and Leia. Jacen's removal from the Force was felt by every Jedi in the galaxy.

Um. We only saw Luke and Leia's reactions, full-frontal. And Han and Ben's. I'm pretty sure other Jedi felt it, too...

And didn't Kyp not feel Jacen's?

5. In TR it is revealed that Jacen is in tune with a "frequency" in the Force that none of the Jedi can reach, allowing him to bond with alien and Vong-formed creatures.[/i

 

Wow, you guys are competing with the Anakin/Obi-Wan fans.
Mine's better. No, mine's better. No, mine's better.


When we all know Anakin Skywalker rocks. Plus he's hawt.

 

Jacen's vong sense was created by the slave seed implant. He needed it's help to escape the Vong. Just like that, Luke's given the start with the poison but it's only the beginning.

Yes, Jacen was able to discover how to connect with Vonglife through the slave see, but what I said was that it is because he is attuned to the Force in a seperate way from other Jedi he is able to maintain it without the slave seed. Everyone else needs a direct symbiosis with Vonglife in order to do so. This is why he was unable to teach Tahiri--she was repressing her genetic connection with the Vong.

As Luke did when he refused to fight anymore and put his life on the line, as Obi-Wan did when he sacrificed himself to guide Obi-Wan and so on. The Unifying force is what dictates the destiny, and everyone has their own destiny. Like Jacen's particular destiny, everyone has their own and those who choose to accept it like all mentioned above, are in touch with it, and those who refuse, are not. The Unifying force - which has to do with destiny. Destiny of every being. Everyone who chooses to follow their destiny is in tune with it.

"The Force itself breaks into two sides: the living Force and a greater, cosmic Force. The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, etc. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it or not."

It has never been written what Luke's destiny was. It can be implied that he was meant to redeem Vader, but as Yoda says in ESB, that role could have gone to Leia as well. And as for the quote, didn't you just say in a previous post that the Living Force is greater? This quote seems to argue against your point. And I can see where you get your ideas based on the second last section, but you need to read the entire paragraph before the meaning is clear. You must be "working with the Force" in order to reach your destiny; the Force does not dictate what that destiny is, it is merely the means to reach it.

And McEwok, as much as I want to disagree with everything you have to say about Darth Jacen, I must grudingly admit that it is always entertaining

And Obi-Wan is way better then Anakin, mostly by default by not being a whiny pretty-boy brat

 

You're assuming Jacen isn't simply delusional at the end of TUF...

*thinks of Barris Offee*

Or high. Hey he is a hippie Jedi.

 

but what I said was that it is because he is attuned to the Force in a seperate way from other Jedi he is able to maintain it without the slave seed. Everyone else needs a direct symbiosis with Vonglife in order to do so. This is why he was unable to teach Tahiri--she was repressing her genetic connection with the Vong.

It does say "other Jedi" but it fails to mention/ignores that Luke is there with his own empathy with life and creatures as he has shown many times before. He is able to maintain it without the slave seed now, but he needed the slave seed and its help for a while. That's why I said it's a start for Luke. On Tahiri, I agree.

It has never been written what Luke's destiny was. It can be implied that he was meant to redeem Vader, but as Yoda says in ESB, that role could have gone to Leia as well.

Yes it was. Anakin's destiny was brining balance back to the force, where Luke's was to redeem his father - allowing him to fulfill the prophecy.

"It (Star Wars) will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was." - GL.

Yoda didn't think that role could've gone to Leia, but had a desperate plan if Luke didn't follow his destiny - a desperate, going down with a fight backup plan. Yoda was willing to sacrifice Leia (ESB) for the sole purpose of making Luke follow his mission, for example.

"And as for the quote, didn't you just say in a previous post that the Living Force is greater? This quote seems to argue against your point."

Not at all. The Unifying Force has to do with destiny. The living force has to do with powers. That's all what that particular quote explains, but doesn't end there. It goes into a lot more shocking detail in Ep-3. Everyone has their destiny, and this part of the force is that which has to do with destiny. Whether people would choose to follow their destiny or not, is their decision and not everyone would.

And I can see where you get your ideas based on the second last section, but you need to read the entire paragraph before the meaning is clear. You must be "working with the Force" in order to reach your destiny; the Force does not dictate what that destiny is, it is merely the means to reach it.

Yes you must be "working with the force" you find your destiny but the force indeed dictates what that destiny is (it has to do with destiny). It doesn't dictate as in force people in the direction they are meant to go - dictate as in it "is". That which manages, that which has to do with it. What the people can do - their part, is finding that destiny and having the option to either follow it or not. They have the choice.

And Obi-Wan is way better then Anakin, mostly by default by not being a whiny pretty-boy brat

Vader is a lot cooler than Obi-Wan and Anakin

Remember, I'm not trying to prove anything. Just as you have your opinions, I just share mine

 

between jacen and Anakin, its hard to determine who is stronger, they both have areas they are better than the other at, but i dont see one more powerful than the other really, though Jacen has more growing to do, its debatable.

 

"It (Star Wars) will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was." - GL.

Yoda didn't think that role could've gone to Leia, but had a desperate plan if Luke didn't follow his destiny - a desperate, going down with a fight backup plan. Yoda was willing to sacrifice Leia (ESB) for the sole purpose of making Luke follow his mission.

The quote tells us what SW is ABOUT. It talks about how Luke recognized Vader's potential for good, but it doesn't say that his destiny was to redeem him. That would mean that it was also Anakin's destiny to go evil, and that takes away from the whole "tragic" story that Lucas says he's making. And Yoda did think that the role could go to Leia, if it came to that. Obi-Wan said that Luke was the last hope, to which Yoda replied "No...there is another." It was an alternative, not a back-up. And willing to sacrifice human life for an uncertain future? Not very Jedi- or Yoda-like. Which means that Yoda is in fact a Sith!

No it doesn't, but works quite well for my point. The Unifying Force has to do with destiny. The living force has to do with powers. That's all what that particular quote explains, but doesn't end there. It goes into a lot more shocking detail in Ep-3.
Actually I have read the entire paragraph many times. Yes you must be "working with the force" you find your destiny but the force indeed dictates what that destiny is (it has to do with destiny). What the people can do, is finding that destiny and having the option to either follow it or not. They have the choice.

Again, you have no idea what ROTS will or will not do. Until that time, that argument can't stand as valid evidence. And again, the Unifying Force is connected to destiny in that it is the means with which a Jedi can REACH his destiny. And maybe I should have worded my last post differently to read that while the Force may dictate what a specific destiny may be--much like how it is believed that G** or his/her/its equivalent does in real life--it doesn't MAKE anyone do anything, as you're implying. A Jedi must use the Force and embrace in order to fulfill its ultimate plan.