PT Was Dooku attempting to overthrow Palpatine with Kenobi's help?

When Kenobi was captured, he admitted to Kenobi that a Sith had taken over and Kenobi didn't believe. him . Was Dooku trying to get Ben's assistance to overthrow Palpatine and have Kenobi as his apprentice Sith?

 

Obi Wan's help. Is the usual thing for the Sith: lie, deception (and corruption) are his ways now as Yoda said in the end of the same movie. But why do you have doubts? I think it is obvious in the movie. Of course the other purpose is to make the Jedi suspicious and afraid of betrayal, still the mentioned above is present also.

 

I was never quite sure about Dooku's end game in this scene. It always seemed as if Dooku was toying with Obi Wan for his own amusement. Dooku does inform him that Sidious controls the senate, which is a pretty big reveal. At the same time, he denies the presence of Jango on Geonosis, which they both know to be a bald faced lie. Dooku also brings up Qui Gonn, which seemed like a cheap trick to play on Obi Wan's emotions.

My personal take is that Dooku knew enough about Obi Wan to know that he would never turn or betray the Jedi Order/Republic. Dooku was certain that Obi Wan would be successfully executed. Because of this, Dooku saw no harm in revealing the existence of Darth Sidious. It was also advantageous to do so, as Obi Wan's reaction told him that the Jedi had no idea and were in total denial of the possibility. This demonstrated how blinkered and complacent the Jedi Order had become.

 

Hard to tell with this scene as in the rest of the Prequel movies we don't see a single attempt made by Dooku to have any ulterior plans considering Sidious or the Galactic Empire.
Two possibilities are that he WAS recruiting Obi Wan in some way, although I don't see for what.. does he want to take on Sidious BEFORE Order 66 and the creation of the Empire, if so then.. that wouldn't make sense as Dooku was in on the grand plan and was scheming WITH Sidious to bring it into fruition. Or he was going to use Kenobi to kill Palpatine AFTER the Empire had been established, which again seems unwise, why create an all powerful and legitimized Empire if you're going to weaken it and assume control illegitimately? might as well use the Separatist army for that.

either way I think the scene mostly existed to make the audience believe Dooku was an indeed idealistic rogue Jedi as he claims who had become aware of Palpatine and was going to do something about it, so that the twist at the end had a lot more impact as he was in fact his right hand man.

In universe reasons were either he was creating a distrust between the Jedi and the Senate on the orders of Sidious, leading into the " coup " they were planning in ROTS

or was indeed just messing with Obi Wan because he knew he was about to be executed anyway.

 

I genuinely think this was a case of Lucas 'winging' it to see where it would go. A bit like the whole Sifo Dyas thing. Remember Lucas mentions in the AOTC commentary that the whole thing will be revealed/explained in the next movie (somewhere around the asteroid chase scene IIRC)

I think Dooku was being serious in wanting Obi-Wan to join him and planned to oust Sidious. Lucas probably thought this was all too much when writing ROTS and omitted and changed things. Unfortunately because of this AOTC comes bottom of most peoples lists. When it really isn't the films fault that things weren't followed on.

 

I think it was part of the plan all along for Dooku to reveal the existence of Darth Sidious to Obi-Wan. Sidious wants the Jedi to know that a large portion of the Senate may be under his control. His goal is to create an atmosphere of fear and mistrust between the Jedi Order and the democratic organs of government. This ploy pays off in Episode III.

Dooku's offer for Obi-Wan to join him in destroying Sidious may have just been a smokescreen on Dooku's part to mask his true motivations for telling Obi-
Wan the truth. But it also may have been a secondary ploy on Dooku's part, this time against his master. If Obi-Wan had said yes, then Dooku could have joined with him to overthrow his master and become the new ruling Sith with Obi-Wan as his apprentice. But if Obi-Wan said no, then there would be no harm, no foul, because as far as Sidious knows, Dooku was just following the plan.

 

Dooku knew that Obi Wan wasn't at all conflicted by the dark side. He knew Obi Wan was in no way at odds with his colleagues (the jedi).
What I believe he wanted to do, was sow seeds of fear and concern in Obi Wan, which succeeded to a point.
At the end of the movie Obi Wan mentions to Yoda and Mace "Do you believe what Dooku says by the corruption in the Senate, it doesn't feel right...".
Mace and Yoda agree that they should keep a closer eye on the Senate from then on.
So Dooku managed to add extra fear and confusion into his former Jedi comrades which serves the purpose of making the Jedi more suspicious of the Senate and therefore probably making the Senate more hostile to the Jedi as they try to exert more control over it at the same time as the true enemy (the chancellor!!) Can play this tension and infighting to his advantage at the appropriate times.

 

I agree with a lot of the points made here.

While I think Dooku was indeed sewing seeds of distrust as Yoda correctly surmises, fear and distrust between the Jedi and the Senate being one of the Sith's tools, the Revenge of the Sith novelisation states he was actually keen on Obi-Wan as a possible convert. So there may have been sincerity to his claim he wished Obi-Wan would join him.

(Edit - as another poster mentioned, he is mixing lies with truth. When he says "There are no bounty hunters here..." I'm always thinking BS! You hired him.)

We know Obi-Wan would never turn - he is much like Luke ultimately, who of course identically as Obi-Wan had with Dooku, states to Vader in ESB "I'll never join you!"
(Although off-topic; Obi-Wan's moment of dark side temptation - getting angry with Maul in TPM - only loses him the fight, where Luke would be more tempted because his anger allows him to defeat Vader in ROTJ).

In the novelisation, as Dooku ponders to himself before Anakin and Obi-Wan arrive; he always respected Obi-Wan, for his nobility and maturity, over Anakin.
He thought Obi-Wan would be a better choice than the seemingly bratty chosen one, but Sidious - who I think was more interested in Anakin's raw power - insisted Skywalker would be best, and Dooku complied.

I wonder with Dooku's origins, knowing he once held idealistic beliefs and had a problem with corruption in the Republic, if in AOTC he had considered recruiting Obi-Wan to help replace Palpatine's Empire with his Empire, and do things differently to how the Emperor did. But in the end decides Sidious is wise, and follows his master's lead.

 

I think part of what Sith Lords do is try to corrupt and convert Jedi/force users. Dooku was, IMO, feeling things out with Obi-Wan, trying to see how and if he could push and pull Obi-Wan and in what directions. Also, it does create a lot of confusion in the Jedi, with them saying "well, if Dooku said it there must be something off about it," even though much of what Dooku said was true.

 

The idea that Dooku told Obi-Wan this in order to cause confusion among the Jedi.
That idea hinges on Obi-Wan being able to report this to the Jedi and since we see him later being in the arena to be executed and then, along with the other Jedi, he has to fight a lot of droids.
So did Dooku know that Obi-Wan would survive all that?
If he did then either he has fantastic ability to see the future or he has read the script.
If he didn't, then this reasoning makes little sense.

So he could be throwing out some bait to see if Obi-Wan might be receptive and when Obi-Wan makes it clear he isn't taking the bait, Dooku drops that attempt and decides to have Obi-Wan killed. So no worry about what he told Obi-Wan as he figures that Obi-Wan won't live to tell anyone.

Or he is just messing with Obi-Wan because he is an evil bad guy and that is what evil bad guys do in films like this.

I think the film tries to blur the lines with Dooku, that the audience isn't supposed to be sure exactly where Dooku stands, if he really is a bad guy or not.
But to me this does not work as we see far too little of any "Good side" to Dooku for us to really think that he could be on good guys side here.
All we get is the opening crawl, which makes him sound ominous. Then Padme accuses him of trying to murder her. No real proof given but it makes him sound like the bad guy. Then we see nothing until Obi-Wan overhear him and Nute and we learn that yes, he was behind the attempt on Padme.
So he is trying to kill her. And we see that he has built up a big army and plans to attack the Republic, which at this time has no army and would be beaten quickly.
So he is shown to be a bad guy, no real doubt at all.
So the scene with Obi-Wan felt empty to me as Dooku could not be seen as sincere here and, again to me, it was just a retread of the Luke/Vader bit in ESB but far less effective.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Oh yeah, I hadn't thought of that...

Well maybe Obi-Wan's death wasn't yet set in stone from Dooku's point of view?
But you're right, it doesn't totally add up.

But Dooku knows the Jedi are going to inevitably attack Geonosis, he needs this for the war to officially start.
So it is still likely the Jedi will hear this claim somehow sooner or later.

I think the above user's observation that Sidious had set this up to create tension between the Jedi and the Senate is perceptive, nevertheless.
Even if a possible logic flaw.

I like the element of Dooku as kind of a shape-shifter, neither the audience or the characters being able to really discern his intent.
It fits.

That makes sense.

Also possible
Hard to say with the prequels tbh, the villains tend to phase between cartoonish super-villainy and sometimes much more complexly motivated entities.

You're right. It only really works on your first viewing that you don't know. At least, I wasn't sure until I saw his evil smile as he was about to defeat Obi-Wan in their duel.
That pretty much erased any notion that he wasn't bad. But before that he was mysterious enough to me.

As others said he is testing the waters with Obi-Wan, at this stage still having some genuine interest in eventually overthrowing Palpatine.
It is interesting that in the middle film of each trilogy Dooku and Vader mention their desires - "Join me, Obi-Wan, and together, we will destroy the Sith!" and "Join me and we can end this destructive conflict!" ... yet in the third movie of both trilogies both have seemingly become compliant to their Master's wishes. Curious.

 

It's likely that he strongly suspected he would survive, yes. Remember that he chained up the Chosen One, Palpatine's coveted prize, in the arena right there with him as well. He knows the Jedi and the clones are coming, and his master has seen the shape of events to come. The staging of the execution is purely for the benefit of his allies. Dooku doesn't expect any of them to actually die that day.

 

Except this has problems;
First, when Dooku said this, Anakin and Padme were not on Geonosis, nor could Dooku have any real way of knowing that they would show up. If he and/or Palpatine had foreseen that they would show up, get captured etc, then they have God-level foresight and can foresee anything and everything.

Second, it isn't just the arena beasts, it is the big droid army that Dooku has ready to spring at the Jedi.
It is a trap for sure and Dooku likely knew that the Jedi would show up. Either he deduced this from Obi-Wan being caught sending a message or Palpatine simply informed him after the senate vote.
But the droids killed about 80 % of all the jedi in the arena.
How could Dooku know that Obi-Wan would not get killed?
Again he either read the script or he can foresee Everything!

Why?
He could just attack a Republic world with his droid army and that would start the war.
Or just make a big threat "We have a big army, bow before us and give in to out demands or else you will all die!!!"
Starting the war is easy.

Ad I said above, a large majority of the Jedi in the arena were killed, had Obi-Wan been among them, the Jedi would learn nothing.

I can see the intent being there but to me it does not work as Dooku is underdeveloped.
Had he been in TPM and been shown as Qui-Gons friend and former master but one who was at odds with the council and he left the Jedi at the end of the film. Then this could have worked.
As is, the crawl makes him seem like the bad guy and Padme accuses him or murder and the first time we see him, we see that yes, he is a bad guy.

Sadly, he never worked as that even the first time.
I was looking forward to see him as I like the actor a lot.
But he does not appear until about half the movie and while the acting is quite good, the character's potential is left unfulfilled.

The reason is two-fold, out of movie and in-movie.
I did not read spoilers but I did know that the late, great Sir Christopher was playing a character by the name "Count Dooku." And I saw trailers with him using a red lightsabre.
So an actor best known for playing villains, and his character is called Count Dooku (Dracula) and he uses a red lightsabre. Gee.. could he be the bad guy?

In-film, as I've said, the crawl makes him sound like he is up to no good, he works with the bad guys from the first film,. the TF. Padme accuses him or trying to murder her, while her accusation makes little sense based on what she would know, the film paints Dooku as the bad guy. And when we finally see him, it is confirmed that he is indeed the bad guy.

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To me, AotC and RotS did this far less good.

First because Dooku is a secondary or even a tertiary character and much less developed than Vader.
But mostly because RotJ did far more with this.
Vader is different in RotJ, he is less forceful, less active and he seems to be filled with regret for his past choices and the position he knows finds himself in.
To me he seemed resigned to his fate, that no good would come of this but he he still do what he did because he HAD TO. As Vader said, he MUST obey his Master.

I think Vader knew what would happen with Luke and him.
Either Luke would refuse to turn and Vader would then be forced to kill his only son.
Or Luke and he would fight and it would end with Vader killing Luke or Luke killing Vader and thus becoming Palpatine's new slave.
Neither of these options had much positive for Vader.
At best he will remain Palpatine's slave and kill his son. Or he will die at his son's hands, who will then take his place as Palpatine's servant.
Yet he still obey because he HAD to. Refusing was not an option as far as Vader was concerned.

Dooku had potential but he is killed off pretty soon in the film and is pretty much forgotten after that.
Dooku shows no hesitation or doubt before doing this.

Why did Dooku go along with this very risky plan?
Have him, Griev and Palpatine just sit in the middle of a big battle, getting shot at, just waiting for Anakin and Obi-Wan to get there and then they would fight.
What would they do if Anakin gets killed when trying to reach the ship?
What would they do if Anakin looses? How would Palpatine get free from the seps?

Plus the quite considerable risk to themselves if their ship gets shot at and is destroyed.
Also, Dooku would know about the rule of two and yet he seems totally surprised when his evil master betrays him. Making him look like an idiot.
I don't think Vader was at all surprised when Palpatine told Luke to kill him, he knew that was coming.

And why this is done is also much more flimsy, if all Palaptine wants is for Dooku and Anakin to fight then there are far easier ways for him to do that, ones that does not rely on so many random variables and has far less risk to him.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

You don't seem to be following the train of logic here. Dooku and Sidious know the general shape of events as a result of Palpatine's already-established (as per ROTJ) powers of foresight. They know that Obi-Wan's capture will result in the Jedi and clones coming to Geonosis to kick-start the war. That's all part of the plan Sidious refers to at the end of the film. Thus, at the time Dooku reveals the existence of Sidious to Obi-Wan, he knows that Obi-Wan will probably survive the execution.

It doesn't matter whether or not Dooku knows Anakin and Padme will show up. He might, and I don't see why that should bother you, given that we know Palpatine of being perfectly capable of foreseeing such things (for example, he knows Luke will seek Vader out on Endor). But Anakin and Padme showing up or not has nothing to do with the Jedi and clones coming to Geonosis to rescue Obi-Wan, thus ensuring his survival. It's a complete non-sequitur.

 

I think the great thing about this scene, is that it's similar to Vader and Luke in TESB, when Vader makes his offer to Luke. I'm 90 percent sure Vader is lying just to get his hands on Luke, since Sidious already knows about Luke at this point, so he's not a "secret weapon" anymore. But there is the possibility that Vader is actually trying to recruit him, and make his power play.

Same thing with Dooku and Kenobi. Obi-Wan being a student of Qui-Gon, who was a student of Dooku, I'm wondering if there's some kinship there (with Anakin also in that lineage). If Kenobi had accepted his offer then and there, what would have happened? He wouldn't have made the offer if Kenobi was definitely going to the execution arena. This was his loyalty test. Would Dooku have taken him under his wing, or sent him back to the Republic? What would be his reason for this? To cause the Jedi and the Senate disruption with news about Darth Sidious controlling everything?

Lots of interesting scenarios there, especially if Anakin had come to Geonosis, found Kenobi and Dooku, and joined both of them. Then you have the obvious Sith battle on the horizon: Sidious and Anakin versus Dooku and Kenobi.

 

No, you don't seem to be aware of what you are arguing nor my problems with it.
1) You mentioned Anakin;

So you argued that Anakin coming there was part of the reason why Dooku said what he did.

My answer is that this does not explain it because Anakin was not on Geonosis at the time, nor would Dooku have an reasonable way of knowing that he would show up.

2) You totally ignored the other part of my argument, namely that surviving the execution is not the only issue, it is the massacre that followed. The droids killed over 80% off the Jedi there and Dooku would not have any way to know that Obi-wan would get through that slaughter alive.
That the Jedi will show up, yes Dooku can figure that this would happen but this is very different from Obi-Wan surviving the arena fight.
When Dooku was going to kill the wounded Obi-Wan, did he KNOW that Anakin would be able to jump in and save him? If not then Obi-Wan dies.

So the issue is, did Dooku KNOW that Obi-Wan would survive the massive droid battle in addition to the beast fight?
If no then him saying this as part of an elaborate plan makes little sense. If yes then he has God-level foresight.

3) Giving Dooku and/or Palpatine such total foresight so that they know EVERYTHING that will happen will not only make their victory less impressive. They know everything that will happen so with this massive advantage, winning is easy.
This level of foresight is also not really established.
Palpatine was surprised that Luke was on Endor so clearly he had NOT foreseen that.
Did Palpatine foresee Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan being sent to Naboo, surviving the attack by the TF, rescuing Padme and taking her to Coruscant?
If yes, why did he bother to send Maul to get her when he knew that he would fail?
If no, then his foresight is not this absolute.
Did Palpatine foresee the rebels blowing up the first DS?

As I said above, I find it to be little more than a re-use of the ESB scene with none of the weight that that scene had.
The impact on Luke was far greater and his situation much more desperate.

Did Vader lie?
I doubt it, when he first pushes Luke into the freezer, he comments "All too easy.."
Indicating that Luke getting beaten this quickly would mean he is not that strong and thus of not much use to Vader.
But Luke gets out and then Vader starts to test him by upping his attacks. To see how much Luke can take and to beat him down so he knows he has lost. Only after that does Vader make his offer, now he knows that while Luke is not at his level yet, he is strong enough to be of use.

Did Vader think that the emperor would not hear about Luke?
That would make him into a moron, he uses Luke's name in front of other imperial officers, they could inform the emperor. So I think it is clear that Luke's name was not a secret.
Which is also why I find the new dialogue in the hologram scene to be less good.
Vader either never considered the idea that Luke could be his son, which makes him dumb, or he tries to pull a weak lie to Palpatine.

Also, both Vader and Dooku know about the rule of two so to Vader, if Luke gets handed over to Palpatine, then you have three sith and that is one sith too many. So by giving Luke to Palpatine, Vader knows that either he will die or he will have to kill Luke.
Getting Luke on his side is the only way, at least to him, that he and his son can both survive.

So what would happen if Luke accepts?
Well Vader can not hand Luke over as I've already said.
So try to stall, fake Luke's death? Hide Luke while training him?
Vader would not make a move to get rid of Palpatine unless he had a strong and committed Luke with him.

Did Dooku think that Obi-Wan might be open to his suggestions?
That is possible so he might be throwing out some bait to see if Obi-Wan bites.
When he doesn't then Dooku decides to have him killed.
And if a miracle would somehow happen and Obi-Wan lives, then no harm done. Obi-Wan knows far too little to ruin their plans.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Yes, In fact, we see him try this 3 times I think.

1) With Obi-Wan
2) With Ventress
3) With Savage Opress - here he point blank states his desire to overthrow Sidious, so I think it can be applied to the other 2 as well.

 

It seems to be the common theme with the followers of the Dark Side, with even non-Sith like Kylo Ren and Snoke vying for control of Rey's potential, with Kylo Ren obviously on the ropes. Even without the Rule of Two, three is a crowd for the Dark Side, unless they're lackeys like Inquisitors.

 

No, I did not argue that. I used Anakin being chained up there as well to illustrate the point that Dooku knew that the execution likely wouldn't be successful. That's why he had no problem chaining up Palpatine's prize to be executed. But Anakin being there or not being there is immaterial to whether or not Obi-Wan would survive. The two events are independent of each other.

I am fully aware of what I am arguing. You misunderstood.

 

No your argument still does not work because you keep ignoring what happened after the execution, the battle with the massive droid army.
This killed many Jedi, at least 80% of those in the arena.
So even if we assume that Dooku knew or figured that they would not be killed by the beasts, this is very different from him knowing that they would NOT be killed by the droids.

Dooku planned that battle and he put Anakin and Obi-Wan there, knowing they would wind up right in the middle of it.
So either he has super foresight and knew that despite many other Jedi dying, they would somehow get out alive. Or he expected them to die or at least was ok with them dying.

Also, your argument has other flaws, like Anakin being Palpatine's "Prize".
Did Dooku know that in AotC? The film does not establish this.
Two, as I said, he put both in very serious danger.
Three, he cut off Anakin's arm in his duel. So he clearly wasn't above doing serious damage to this "Prize".
In fact if he knew that Palpatine was interested in Anakin, then the logical course of action for Dooku would be to make sure that he dies. He knows about the rule of two so if Anakin becomes a sith then either he or Palpatine must die.
But if Anakin dies, then there is no one to threaten Dooku's position.

So if Dooku did know about Palpatine's "Prize" he would likely try to make sure he dies and not try to keep him safe.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Ding ding ding! Guess which character has the well-established trait of "super foresight" and created the plan which Dooku is executing in the film?

 

So your explanation is that Palpatine can foresee EVERYTHING!
Down to the smallest detail.
Tell me, did he foresee and plan for Padme to escape from Naboo with the Jedi's help?
Did he foresee that the rebels would blow up the DS?

If your answer is no then this ability is not consistent.

And we know that he did NOT foresee that Luke would come to Endor.

And as I said, giving him this massive advantage makes his victory unimpressive, if you know everything that will happen and what everyone in the galaxy will do, then winning is easy.

Lastly, where in the film does it say that Palpatine told Dooku to do this?
Did he tell Dooku to cut of Anakin's arm?
If he can foresee everything then he could have.

Bye.

 

No, my explanation is that Palpatine foresaw that Obi-Wan would likely survive the events of the film. Just as he foresaw that Luke would make his way to Vader on Endor despite failing to inform the troopers stationed on the moon not to attempt to kill him.

 

Except he had to foresee a lot more than this in order for this to be a "plan" by Palpatine.
He had to foresee that Zam would fail, that she be captured, killed with the dart and that Obi-Wan would be able to ID said dart.
That Obi-Wan would put a tracker on Jango's ship, that said Jango would fail to kill him.
That he would overhear what Dooku said, that he be able to send a signal, that he be captured, not killed.
This in addition to knowing that Obi-Wan would somehow survive the beasts, the droid army plus the battle on Geonosis and Dooku trying to kill him.

So sorry, this is giving Palpatine the ability to foresee EVERYTHING.

Also, Palpatine did NOT foresee that Luke would come to Endor and he was quite surprised that Luke was there. So he could not have given any orders to troops stationed there regarding Luke.
Once he did know and that Vader had sensed him, he sent Vader down there with the reasoning that Luke would sense his father and go to him.
All that he had foreseen is that Luke would eventually seek his father out, nothing more, not how or when.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

For some reason I was just thinking about this (again, because I've wondered about since the first time I saw the movie) and came to see if there were any threads discussing it already. After reading all of your thoughts, I've come to the conclusion that he was genuinely sincere about recruiting Obi-wan, while at the same time obviously not revealing anything too damaging should Obi-wan somehow escape with the information as ends up happening. I think the admiration of Qui-Gon and for sure the desire to team up with his apprentice to overthrow Sidious were real, even if his "charming legitimate political leader who definitely doesn't support holding Jedi hostage or hiring bounty hunters to assassinate senators" persona is an act, and it's only when Obi-wan refuses that the situation reverts to "it may be hard to secure your release". The movies do give off a weird vibe for Dooku where he's clearly morally wrong, but it seems like in more of a believer that "the ends justify the means" way than a pure evil like most Sith are depicted. Almost like an off brand Sith who Palpatine makes do with after the "death" of Maul while grooming Anakin. (I also don't really buy that Dooku was in on the whole turn Anakin idea). Unfortunately the movies don't explore his background at all, and things like TCW seem to go with "he's a Sith so the only thing on his mind is evil 24/7, and anything that appears otherwise just means he's lying or faking" while also somewhat trying to keep the Christopher Lee cool and dignified aspect and it doesn't really work for me. Like when he teams up with Anakin and Obi-wan to escape the pirates. Can you imagine Palpatine, Episode 1 Maul, or even Darth Vader working together with Jedi without a more extreme circumstance? I wish they had done a better job fleshing out Dooku's goals and motivations as a character in general.