was Luke the only jedi that wasn't all talk(figuratively speaking)?

<=== brand new to this website guys so be merciful =)

Was thinking, fear is the path to the darkside or so goes the saying, it seems to me Luke was the only jedi who wasn't afraid to yield and overcome. seems to me all the other jedi gave into fear before it was all said and done. i am new so if this topic is commonplace i am truly sorry. if anyone has a thought on this i would love to see what you think.

P.S. as i said i am new to this site, but have been reading alot of the topics, you guys have some interesting thoughts, lots of things i have never considered before =)

 

I don't see Yoda, Obi-Wan, or Qui-Gon giving into their fear. I also don't think Mace or Ki-Adi Mundi did, but there's significant amounts of argument on those two. Now, I don't think Luke did either in RotJ, I think he did in Empire in the cave in my opinion.

 

i do see where you are coming from Master Starwalker, i was viewing there fear on a larger scale tho. it seems to me that fear of change caused them to take actions that a jedi should not, i.e. "aggressive negotiations", which in fact goes against the whole use the force for defense instead of attack. imposing your will on someone is rooted in fear in my opinion, and while Luke did have a few missteps along the way, in the end it seems he was willing to trust in the Force instead of his own actions, where the other jedi were not.

also it is interesting to me that u mention the cave. i think its neat that all the masters pass there trials but fail when it counts, and Luke failed his trial..... =)

 

Nice idea here.

Luke overcame his fear, for sure.

Qui Gon died a pretty noble death, face to face with Maul. I don't really see fear coming into play with him. He always seemed to stand up for himself, and always did what he thought was right.

Obi-Wan also died a pretty noble death. Talk about confronting fear of death.

However, I believe the Jedi way that disallowed personal romantic attachment has to be looked at as fear induced. In this sense all the prequel Jedis are kinda full of it.

That's where they went right with Luke.

 

The Jedi in the Prequels however were as far as they knew fighting to prevent the oppression of the Sith from returning, which would in turn be fighting to preserve the freedom of the beings throughout the galaxy, which would in my mind be the opposite of imposing their will on others.


They were played by Palpatine, but their motivations were pure. Old Ben at least seems to fully trust in the Force as he lay down his life without hesitation or regret and achieved complete selflessness(which is what must be attained in order to Force Ghost.) Yoda also had no fear of death as he fully accepted that it was time for him to forever sleep.

Oh also, great screen name.

 

you guys make good points of very specific instances when it comes to overcoming fear of death, but when you can talk with the dead and you KNOW where you are headed, kind of takes the fear out of it. fear of the unknown is more applicable here in my mind. in all of the jedi i see a narrow view, an inability to accept things not pre-determined by there own dogma. to me this is fear, fear of questioning ones own beliefs, fear that if you do question, and find an answer you dont like, then you will be lost. how come its so easy to fall to the dark side, but impossible to cross back over. everyone but Luke marked Vader off as a lost cause.
Luke saw past the black and white, good and bad, Vader and Anakin, he just saw his father, love, and potential.

Mark Twain said "who in the history of man has had the compassion to pray for the greatest sinner of all time", in reference to lucifer(not trying to get religious just illustrating a point =). to me fear is resting on your laurels and sticking to what you know or what is known. i just think all the jedi study and train in the Force but Luke embodied it in the end =)

sorry for the long post..."you have failed your highness, i am a jedi, like my father before me" how cool is that =D

 

Because not one Jedi has ever gone to the Dark Side and came back from it before. Not even Yoda, the grandmaster himself has seen it happen before which is why he believed that Anakin is gone forever, "consumed by Darth Vader". That's what makes the ending to Return of the Jedi so powerful as we see a one of a kind moment where Vader does the impossible by giving up the Dark Side to save Luke from the Emperor.

 

Mostly because as far as the films go, no Jedi other than Anakin had ever turned back. I also don't see the Jedi as having a fear of questioning or even disagreement, given that they have busts made of all of the 20 Jedi who had voluntairly left the Order in the Jedi Archive. They even lept to Dooku's defense before they learned he had fallen to the Dark Side.

I do think Luke was the greatest Jedi, but I also don't feel the others were failures. I also don't think what Luke did would have worked on any of the other Sith. It wouldn't work with Maul and Palpatine because they were raised Sith and had no conflict. I could see it working with Dooku had Qui-Gon lived, but otherwise I think his confidence in his ideology would be too strong since it seems to me that Dooku's fall was a conscious idealogical choice.

 

i tend to think that obiwan was probably the greatest jedi when it came down to obeying the force, showing no fear, and giving himself totally to the force.

imo, this is why obiwan survives until he willingly gives up his life, the force protects him because obiwan lives to serve it, without fear or selfishness.

Obiwan is not the most powerful jedi. I'm talking power in terms of skill with a saber, ability to shoot lightning, throw pods, etc. however, the force protected him because he always listened to it, without showing fear.

There were many times that obiwan could have been killed. his fight with Maul, his duel with anakin, and all the times that anakin mentions saving him in rots, but the force protects him because he is the greatest jedi when it comes to listening to the force even if the means being put in a situation where he is against all odds and overmatched.

 

Wow! Welcome to the club man. Great first time post. I'm adding you to my watched user list. Intriguing ideas. I must say that I agree with you. The other Jedi did give up on Vader. I think that's not necessarily fear, but quitting. They just quit. Obi even says "Then you are a lost!" He sees no good left in him, but there's good left in everyone. Lucas says somewhere and I paraphrase, "People don't believe what they're doing is evil. They think it's good, but it's actually evil." Therefoe, Anakin feels he's doing good to the galaxy and himself so he still has love and goodness in him, even if they're not the same as our point of view. Luke just changes his point of view. Luke has a BROAD point of view while the Jedi as you adequetly put it have a "narrow" point of view. That's why Luke it the greatest and most envious character of the saga to me. I don't know if I can argue against Qui-Gon with regards to your question so I'll have to think about that. But all the other Jedi were afraid to "yield and overcome."

 

thanks for all the great posts guys, very insightful and challenging, i will try to reply in kind...

PMT99...i liked the Yoda perspective, and the fact that no one has seen it done, but that kind of reinforces my thought on the narrow mindedness of the jedi, just cus no one has seen it happen, does it mean its not possible. for an all penetrating entity like the Force you would think nothing is out of reach and i would think Yoda would have more faith than that. no one can see the Force, yet it happens everyday in the star wars universe.

Master Starwalker...caught me off guard with all the jedi who either left of there own accord, or were asked to leave due to differences of opinion or whatever reason....but once again the narrow mindedness...it seems to require you to no longer be a jedi to have that very difference of opinion correct? i am bested however on the Vader being his father comment, you may be rite there, would be tuf to win over a Darth Maul with compassion =) however if u read below i think Obi could have done just that with Anakin on lava world, also i dont think victory is as easy as who is left standing in anycase, Luke was ready to pack it in at the end of ROTJ, and was fully confident to tell the emporer that he had failed after he tossed his saber aside.

Chewiesnextmeal...all of your comment about Obi are spot on, and it pains me to say cus i am an Obi fan myself, but here goes...failure is a strong word, while i wont go there, i will say that he wasnt walking the jedi talk in the least. instead of using the primary traits a jedi should show, he was antagonistic to say the least. "only a sith deals in absolutes"..tough to find a more absolute way to judge your friend and companion, regardless of Anakin being rite or wrong, Obi didnt even listen to him, he was too busy quoting self righteous philosophy, he made up his mind before he even got there. studying the Force and embodying the Force is the difference again in my mind.

skgai1...always nice to have someone agree with me, doesnt happen very often, probably cus i am so poorly informed and long winded, but thanks none the less =)

sorry for the long post, i love good debate so feel free to lampoon me at will, thanks again all =)

 

I wouldn't say you must leave the Order if you disagree strongly with the Council, as while Qui-Gon agreed with the Council on the most fundamental levels(such as Dark Side = Bad, Compassion is good, trust in the Force, etc.) He was a rogue, and went about things fairly differently in some instances.

I don't think victory is always as easy as who is left standing, as shown by the fact that while Obi-Wan died, he won against Vader in A New Hope. Luke did trust in the Force, but he had also almost fallen due to his anger right before he threw it away.

 

Not only have the Jedi not seen it done before but they've also never experienced it either. When they witness a Jedi turn to the Dark Side and become a Sith Lord, they notice that the Sith are overjoyed with their "unnatural" powers that they refuse to give it up. The Jedi would try to coach the Sith into giving up the Dark Side but when that Sith won't listen to reason, that leads the Jedi into believing that a Sith can never turn back to the Light Side.

These non-attachment rules prevent the Jedi from doing a better job at guilt-tripping the Sith into giving up the Dark Side, hence why they are sworn enemies.

 

To be a Jedi - you have to overcome your fear. If you haven't then you are not a Jedi.

Luke gave into his fear (of losing Leia and his friends) in Return of the Jedi and attacked Vader with anger. But he managed to calm himself down, saw what he was becoming (a lesson from the Cave) and threw down his saber. He overcame his fear and at that moment became a Jedi.

This is why yoda said that Luke would only be a Jedi once he has confronted Vader. It was Luke's fear. And he had to get past that before he could make the final step.

 

Not only have the Jedi not seen it done before but they've also never experienced it either. When they witness a Jedi turn to the Dark Side and become a Sith Lord, they notice that the Sith are overjoyed with their "unnatural" powers that they refuse to give it up. The Jedi would try to coach the Sith into giving up the Dark Side but when that Sith won't listen to reason, that leads the Jedi into believing that a Sith can never turn back to the Light Side.

These non-attachment rules prevent the Jedi from doing a better job at guilt-tripping the Sith into giving up the Dark Side, hence why they are sworn enemies.[/quote]

while you present a valid argument of how difficult it would be to get into the heart and or mind of a sith, i think the nature of your approach is flawed from the jump. how about appealing to a beings better nature or perhaps trying to understand what they feel in order to get to there core and perhaps save them, the idea of guilt tripping is beneath what a jedi should be, if that is there intention no wonder they fail.

as i stated above i felt Obi-wan was lacking in compassion when he confronted his apprentice in ROTS, he wasnt being authentic, he was being self righteous, in a sense he was being more like his enemy than he realized, and sinking to your enemies level in order to face them may not be the best idea.

Master Shaitan...you make a fine outline of what qualifies a jedi in the eyes or minds of other jedi, but crossing the line from student to master doesnt make you correct at all times, my observation was that Luke was the only jedi to actually walk the talk, or embody the force. i am not saying Yoda or Mace or any of them werent jedi by definition, i am saying they talked a better game than they played, i guess you could even say they werent true representatives of the Force in action

 

Luke was the best Jedi in the whole saga.

Obi Wan wan't all talk though - he kicked many an evil butt, including Sithy ones. Yoda wasn't all talk - he walked the walked which he talked.

Actually, a lot of Jedi weren't ALL talk - although apart from QGJ & OWK, it sure felt like it in EPI. Maybe it was supposed to...

 

Nah - Kenobi was the best...from my point of view.

 

yes Obi kicked many a butt, but the nature of a jedi isnt that at all, Luke became a jedi when he tossed his saber down, Yoda didnt even have one in the OT. and while i love Yoda i liken him to the saying about teachers..."those who cant do, teach"...it doesnt lessen the importance of a great teacher or the wisdom of Yoda in the matter,but still, if you cant get the job done teach someone who can

 

I think Luke was the best of the new, Kenobi was the best classical Jedi, and Yoda was the greatest Jedi Master(in terms of instruction and wisdom.)

 

Fear is something else than simply sitting back and not meaning to go any further. That is more or less cowardice.

Fear goes deeper than cowardice. It has to do with avoidance, with being unable to shed light on something and it most definitely has to be understood, rather than eliminated or oppressed.

Not necessarily embody the Force (for that we'd have to know what 'the Force' is exactly), but very basically IMO Luke put love and action together, as it should be. He didn't simply preach the gospel, he had understood what it meant. And as you said, the Jedi weren't previously in the position to attempt an understanding, they weren't even committed to understanding anything, they were merely condemning and preaching.

 

In a sense, all jedi are all talk. There all told to be emotionless and to not fear. But to fear fear itself is fear none the less. I think Luke is the new improved Jedi because even after he tapped into the darkside and defeated his father, his compassion for him made him refuse to give the killing blow and he overcame the possible power behind the darkside.

He also understands in the EU that attatchments can bring out the best in people, and even though the thought of losing them brings out the fear it motivates him to do the good and control his fear.

 

i really like what you put about the difference between understanding and eliminating, and i do think it applies. when i put "sticking to what you know or what is known" i was getting at being affraid to question your own beliefs or the ideas of conventional wisdom. i think all too often we hear something that doesnt mesh with our philosophy and disregard it out of hand(or eliminate it as you said=). are we affraid to study it or to attempt to understand it, because it may end up changing our belief structure, i believe so. i think the jedi are this way, cowardice eh, i would say fear and laziness. fear that maybe an idea outside there understanding may change things, and an insecure type feels that changing a belief implies time wasted believeing, the laziness because its just easier to stick with your current belief than it is to question oneself. anyways i liked your post =)

Sublime...i also liked your comment about the EU Luke, i think its a great way of looking at things, but i have no EU experience so i wasnt aware of that, good post

"its real velour, come on let yourself go" (Zapp Brannigan)

 

However, there's no evidence that the Jedi fear fear. They're told not to use it, but that's a fairly logical decision given that the reason every Jedi who falls to the Dark Side in the films(and most in the EU) falls, is something that is ultimately rooted in fear. Anakin's fall is fairly obvious how fear factors into it because it was motivated by his fear to lose Padme, Luke's near-fall in Episode VI is due to the fear that Leia would fall to the Dark Side.

 

i would say it was 50/50

50% was fear of Leias fall, and 50% was being affraid of the 6 foot mechanical man with a laser sword who was throwing things at him with his mind and straight whoopin his butt, just a thought

 

If it was Empire, I'd agree. However Luke doesn't seem to be afraid of Vader at all to me in Jedi.