PT Was the Anakin/Obi-Wan vs Dooku meant to feel more the OT duels?

It's just so...steady. No crazy tricks (besides Anakin's mega leap to save Obi)...just a duel.

I also love how it feels like Empire in some ways. Vader essentially conquered Luke and Dooku did the same to both Obi and Anakin.

Anyone else?

EDIT - I messed up the title!! Dammit! Lol

 

This battle, untill the apperance of Yoda, its one of the most interesting from PT. And you are right, this fight looks more OT than PT.

 

I never thought so it seems very PT to me.

 

I don't know, I think the lightsaber duels are the weak point in the OT, so IMO it wouldn't make sense to try to emulate them. Especially since the TPM lightsaber battles were so well-received, I can't see why they'd regress. I think the AOTC duels were severely limited due to time constraints, and the Anakin/Obi Wan battle was compromised to make Dooku and Yoda appear more impressive - didn't quite work, since it's established that Obi Wan already is a lethal fighter, and Anakin (idle boast or not) is not that far off from Yoda in technical know-how, if not quite there in experience.

Just to me, the AOTC duels felt rushed and lazy than intentionally OT.

 

It isn't really established that Obi-Wan is a great duelist until ROTS. In fact it isn't even exposed that much in the film but expanded upon very much in the novelization.

 

Well he held his won against Darth Maul and in Geonosis, I assumed that took a certain level of proficiency (since there is no such thing as luck in his experience). Plus I'm guessing his skills have improved by training with Anakin in the interim. Surprise attack or not, the duel with Darth Maul did not reveal him to be a complete amateur.

 

It was definitely played more to Sir Christopher's fencing abilities (what he did perform), and in that sense, yes portions of this fight remind me more of the OT.

 

The duels are supposed to be special to the duelists at hand. They really aren't trying to mimic any certain trilogy. All the duels take on a life of their own. In AOTC, we see a young experienced Anakin and his young mentor Obi Wan take on Count Dooku. A fully fledged ex Jedi master now with the abilities of the Sith to add to his mastery of the force. So here we get to see Anakin jump into action and get quickly beat down by Dooku. Then Obi Wan being more grounded tries to take on Dooku but fails. Though watching Anakin jump up to rescue Obi Wan at the last second, really shows that Anakin did have skills. But as he said earlier in the films, he was being held back. I firmly believe he was being held back. With the council having their doubts about him being the chosen one and all.

Then enters Yoda. That was the highlight of the duel for me. Seeing one of my favorite characters go all out was a sight to see for the first time. And it was against Dooku, his former padawan. This saber duel was much more refined than the one previous in TPM. The duelists in the first one were facing a Sith that had a much wider range of maneuverability than Dooku did. So the duels were very different in style and flavor.

 

The duels between Anakin and Dooku were meant to reflect Luke vs Vader, which is why there are similarities.









Dooku vs Obi-wan does have more dialogue, but that's because he wants to turn Obi-wan and has no interest in Anakin. Nor, apparently, does he know that Palpatine has been looking at turning the boy.

 

First things first, I think the real reason the Dooku duels are more tame is because of Lee's physical limitations.

In AOTC, Anakin comes at Dooku very brash (he gets blasted by lightning immediately), like Luke goes at Vader in ESB. "I am a slow learner" is very similar to "You'll find I'm full of surprises", and I'm a fan of both lines. That's just good Star Wars dialogue.

Obi-Wan vs Dooku in AOTC was pretty weak to me. There was no depth there at all. Obi-Wan just doesn't "go" for anything Dooku says, he just shuts him down, shuts down the dialogue. It's not working. The first thing Obi-Wan says when sees Dooku on Geonosis is "traitor". He's just not entertaining any of it. There's still stuff to like, Lee does a good job and Obi-Wan's staunch attitude shows how committed he is to this whole Jedi thing, and that's good in its way.

The problem is that Dooku has zero connection to Anakin or Obi-Wan in AOTC. There's nothing really personal between them. I think it kicks up a notch when Yoda shows up, they have a history, and personally I loved the pinballing.

In ROTS, Obi-Wan is taken out of the picture, and I think that's a good thing, there's nothing there between them, plus it allows Anakin to save him later, which was very endearing.

Then it gets down to Anakin vs Dooku, with Palpatine looking on, similar to the throne room scene in ROTJ. "My powers have doubled since we last met, Count" is probably the most Vader Hayden has ever sounded, and "Twice the pride, double the fall" is a great response. Very good dialogue. Since Dooku took Anakin's arm last time, it feels more personal.

 

I think it feels more OT only in the sense that they toned it down from the duels in TPM. There was a simplicity and understatedness that held between Obi-Wan and Dooku and then Anakin and Dooku's duels. Once Yoda arrived, all that changed. But even in ROTS, I think the duel with Dooku had somewhat of a similar feel to AOTC. Again, nothing too flashy other than Dooku Force throwing Obi-Wan and attempting to crush him with the balcony. I actually really enjoy the Dooku duels exactly for those reasons.

 

Something that I like about the first encounter between Anakin and Obi-Wan and Dooku is how rushed it is. Not the duel itself, but the way it begins. Perhaps, more accurately, rushed into.

It is the only duel of the saga that immediately follows a big battle, where our would-be heroes race off a ship that then explodes, narrowly missing death, bursting into a cave-like environ, glowing swords at the ready.

And Anakin is frantic. He's like a kid that can't wait for his first video-game. He's gonna take Dooku and he's gonna take him now. Only a moment's hesitation, a moment's pacing, holds him back. It's like, as soon as he hears Obi-Wan speaking, giving him yet more orders, he snaps. He's straight off, away from pain, away from annoyance, away from restraints.......... he's gonna assert himself in this moment even if it kills him. Padme is in the sand, possibly dead, Jedi have been downed in the arena, he effed up against the Tuskens, he lost his mother, he's barely had time to grieve, to literally or metaphorically "catch his breath". Payback time.

Something powerful in that.

I will admit, when I first read the opening description, I wasn't sure if the OP was talking about the AOTC duel or the one that opens ROTS. When you break it down abstractly, the ROTS duel is almost a straight reprise, with the only difference being that Anakin, in offing Dooku, conquers (or rather slays) himself. Dooku is his mirror. Attack of the clones.

And if there is any duel in the PT that is OT-esque, I would vote for that aforementioned reprise at the start of ROTS (or at the end of the start, or the start of the end). Something about those camera angles, the Jedi-esque staging and staircase. Pretty damn cool. That stairway even appeared in a dream of mine the other night. I've been watching these movies too much.

Jacob's ladder?

"I'd much rather dream about Padme."

Anyway, I was going to add, so should (!), a couple of things:

i) I like the subdued lighting of the AOTC duel(s). It creates a really nice contrast with the duels in TPM. There is a sort of visual narrative evident here: bright (desert duel between Qui-Gon and Maul), intermediate (Theed reactor duel), dark (AOTC hangar). Lucas' visual themes and his overall landscaping of these movies (whether "consciously implanted/intended" or not) are pretty awesome. The cranked-down lighting also makes the lightsaber blades really stand out, giving them a unique power, despite all the laser blasts etched all over the screen in the preceding thirty minutes of (brightly-lit) battle scenes. Here is where things are at their most intimate, their most dangerous, and also their most abstract. Amazingly, the eye doesn't tire, but is ready for just such a visual construction. It is also interesting to notice that Lucas does a two-tone thing by cutting back to Padme in the bright sand momentarily, not merely updating the viewer on that plot thread, but also injecting the duel-space with its own visual language. Symbolism undoubtedly lies in the fact that Padme herself is lying down, then comes to, rises, and asserts, "We've got to get to that hangar!" -- the feminine is lacking in these duelling characters; they will wind up defeated.

ii) The various encounters are pretty short, but I like to interpret this, on one particular story level, as Dooku not fooling around. Despite getting his hands dirty in politics and war (or perhaps more aptly: politics/war), he's still keen to make a clean break for it, dealing brusquely with his opponents, right from the moment Anakin charges at him, imbued with the spirit of the reek, only to be quickly dispatched by Dooku's calm use of a lightning parry. Take that, Chosen One! A symbolic meaning in Dooku's fighting style, and the shortness of the duels generally, is in the way the Sith wield truth, and how it swipes at and lacerates hero characters with brutal efficiency. A lie may be expedient, but truth invariably slashes at everyone. And this is the way the Sith will win (a mixture of truth and lies). There is something very tricky about taking on an "elder statesman" character like Dooku. Through age and experience, he has become chillingly effective at what he does. Not even Yoda can decisively thwart him.


Alright...

iii) Speaking of Yoda, yes... this iconic moment. There is great subtext to Yoda appearing to "set things right". One feels the rebuke of Yoda even before one sees him. The strained yet authoritarian walk. The breathing, the shadow. It is like a parent appearing to scold the wayward child. How great to have such a tall actor in Christopher Lee and a character so short as Yoda! Two tribes, two visual ideologies, going to war.


What was the question, again?

 

The OT duels are bad by comparison, but the AOTC duel is just bad staging.

 

It was, but Lee also had a double who did the more difficult stuff such as the backpedaling, jumping, running and spinning.

Well, Dooku has a connection to Qui-gon and tries to use that to his advantage, but he realizes that his former Padawan has done a far better job than he realized. As to Anakin, no, there is no connection either. But it is personal as Anakin blames him for the assassination attempts on Padme, as well as endangering her in the arena and just recently, her falling out of the gunship which brings out all kinds of anger in Anakin.

ANAKIN: "You're going to pay for all the Jedi you've killed today, Dooku."

OBI-WAN: "We'll take him together - you go in slowly on the..."

ANAKIN: "No, I'm taking him now!"

OBI-WAN: "Anakin, no!"

So it became personal for Anakin, pretty quick. It only intensifies by the time of their last fight.

 

I'd say it's closer to the OT duels only in a relative sense. As already opined, each duel assumes an identity of its own. Also made evident is how this one is a lesser favored, which is understandable. On the face of it, there's not much to be impressed by.

The first duel in The Phantom Menace between Qui-Gon and Maul is brief but intense, practically creating its own dust storm while the film’s final three-way showdown is not referred to as "the Fates" for nothing—its setting is equivalently mythic Mt. Olympus, a vast hall of heavenly white-light pillars and networked endlessly with tiered walkways for Gods to come and go, intersect, converge, feud, resolve matters; Williams’ orchestral speaks for itself. Mirrored, the duel on Mustafar in Revenge of the Sith is like Mt. Olympus irrupted, even opening up to the rivers of Hades, if you will. Both offer extremely dramatic environments, though the other duels in Episode III are markedly three-dimensional in the same respect. The duel on Grievous’ flagship with Obi-Wan and Anakin against Dooku is backdropped with a vast orbit battle, while the duel between Obi-Wan and Grievous himself on Utapau is uniquely quadratic and capped with the classic 'super-secret lair' invasion. Even the set piece in the Chancellor office between Palpatine and the policing Jedi Masters becomes strikingly framed amidst a shattered window overlooking Coruscant’s skyline. And, of course, Yoda fighting Sedious in the Senate Chamber is quite obvious in its symbolic destruction.

This leaves us with the saber duel in question, for which the grandly conceived milieu is [wait for it]...a cave. Okay, so, technically, it’s a hangar bay, but it really just looks like a cave, with some spaced-out water heating junk. Comparably low-rent to everything highlighted above. No real bells and whistles of note. Furthermore, something inherent is missing from this overlapping duel involving Dooku, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda: a point. Nothing is decided here. No one dies, or transitions from one alignment to the other. No greater truths are revealed. It's that middle ground between two installments and, unlike the events of The Empire Strikes Back, the narrative here is hindered by certain foregone conclusions. The whole affair is therefore oddly inconsequential.

And that's what I like about it (suck it!).

Story placement determines storytelling, the cinema of things. I know everyone loves (or alternately hates outright) the dizzying finale that is Yoda in full-on 'Green Destiny' mode and, damn it, so do I. But on a more cerebral level I am rather partial to the nature of Anakin and Dooku's engagement, even when accounting for its one or two continuity bloopers. It's the imagery and ambiance that I dig, and there is indeed an awkward staging to it all. Their fight choreography is the slowest of the PT, almost waltz-like, as they seem to be fencing to a speed and style that emphasizes the aforesaid limbo stage of the larger story. Less waltz, actually, and something more Andalusian; I’ve elsewhere since described the flamenco percussions that Williams meters to the footwork and twirls of both fighters. It’s also a duel personified not by fury or dutiful resolve, but angst versus imperiousness, where Anakin seems just as intent on out-swaggering Dooku the elder statesman as opposed to defeating Dooku the enemy of the Republic. There truly is something of significance to the way he cuts the ground wiring. For starters, it makes no real tactical sense, as one is no blinder to the other than either way. It does, however, serve as a clear gesture illustrating Anakin’s desire to express himself. It’s a very self-conscious moment on his part. He literally does it for no other reason than to beckon Dooku into his own form of dance, casting the duel into an ill-tempered youth-rave. The cave setting might not be visually exciting but its muted two-tone color scheme -- gray, copper -- is more singularly medieval, or perhaps evoking some moody crypt or dungeon typical to a d’Artagnan Romance, and in a manner that I think befits what is overall a distinctly literary and archaic slant to Attack of the Clones.

It's not as cold or foreboding as the duel in Empire nor as geriatric as the distraction staged by Ben Kenobi in A New Hope. Though, like those and the final confrontation in Return of the Jedi, there is a bit more leisured conversation mixed in.

 

Truth. Yoda shouldn't have ever dueled until ROTS, and even then it looks somewhat ridiculous.

The Geonosis hanger duel does have more of a PT feel in where it doesn't stretch on too long, and we don't see actual much dueling. Dooku's one handed form also reminds me of Darth Vader's in ESB. A master of the darkside kind of schooling a young Jedi, if you will.

The lighting also kind of reminds me of the Bespin duel, just slightly..

 

i don't think so, the duels are much faster paced than the OT duels, specially in ep 4. I mean really watch the vader obi wan duel in the original star wars..... wow..... huge difference.

 

i love this duel...especially the close up of Dooku's and Anakin' eyes when they are illuminated by their swinging blades...it creates a lot of tension and suspense...great directing choice by Lucas here! Also Dooku's taunting is classic...reminds me of Vader! The prequels rock!

 

I agree with you


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk