Was Vader so twisted that even if he had seen his babies he still would have..

I believe that Vader was remorseful after he learned of padme's death. Since he was at fault, and he knew it. But if the story ROTS was different would Vader still have been tempted to stay with the darkside if he has seen his babies? I mean after all, Luke and Leia is all he has left of Padme. Would he have melted of was almost at the point of no return? I say almost because Vader IMO Vader was "The Return of the Jedi." and was redeemed by his son. Thanks,

 

I think that seeing his babies wouldn't have detered him from his destined path. Luke was able to reason with him in Return of the Jedi. If Vader had seen his babies, he either would have used everything his new dark powers gave him to protect them the way he had planned to protect Padme, or the Emperor may have decided that they should be destroyed. Being babies, they couldn't reason with Vader...call on his good side. They would just be another set of people he stood the chance of losing. More of the original cycle that sent him down his dark path in the first place.

 

But Vader will realise that PalpSidious lied to him about Padme's death which will lead him to believe that Palps will attempt to kill Vader's kids should he find them. Vader would kill the Emperor before he'll allow that to happen which in turn will pull Anakin back into the lightside and the prophecy will be fulfilled because he's doing it for someone other than himself...namely Luke and Leia.

 

The children would have to be hidden to keep them safe.

They would have been used by either Sids or Vader and taught the Dark Side.

If Sids some them as dangerous, a tool of his apprentice Vader, he would not have hesitated to kill them.

Vader would have used his children to help overthrow the Emperor.

The children had to be hidden and protected. That's one correct decision Yoda made.

I just don't think Yoda was as wise as he thought he was.
Perhaps he was arrogant as well.

The years in exile upon Dagobah taught him to be less arrogant and perhaps a little more compassion.

 

No. You're wrong.

Fulfilling the prophecy involves destroying 'the Sith', which means Palpatine AND Vader i.e. Vader giving up his own life as well as killing Palpatine, as he did in ROTJ.

If he'd known about the kids early on, and killed Palpatine, he would've simply taken Palps' place and raised one or more of the kids to be his Sith Apprentice.

 

after padme dies nothing can make him leave the dark side...if he had seen the babies and his wife alive i think that the chances are little if there are any but after she died the babies alone are not enough IMO

 

after padme dies nothing can make him leave the dark side...

Ummm.............. what?

Have you watched ROTJ? Anakin leaves the dark side while he watches Sidious starting to kill Luke. In that scene alone, he is leaving the dark side for his children.

Vader went through alot between ROTS and ROTJ. If he had found out the children were still alive right after ROTS, it's hard to tell what he would have done.

If Vader turned back to the light side, he would still fullfill the prophecy by killing Sidious. When he dies in ROTJ, he isn't a sith anymore, he's a Jedi again. He didn't HAVE to die at the end of ROTJ, but if he hadn't, that would have left the trilogy "open" at the end. Lucas hadn't intended on making any movies after ROTJ, so he gave Anakin closure - he became bad, and redeemed himself, story over. But he didn't die because it was necessary to fullfill the prophecy, he died in the process of saving his son from the sith.

 

^ Also wrong.

Anakin also had to die to fulfill the prophecy. Lucas himself has said this on MULTIPLE occasions.

 

Well, Anakin force choked his preggo wife as the darkness of the Sith consumed him. No reason to believe that he saw the child(ren) as anything other than a path to 'absolute power.' We see this fully develop in TESB as Vader seeks out his son to serve along side him as the "rule the galaxy as father and son."

Anakin, now Vader, knew that Palpatine must die -- and he certainly wanted to kill him. He states such to Padme as he tell her his plan of her being his Emperess. As noted above by several of you, Vader didn't quite realize that killing Palpatine also meant his own death (as the Sith apprentice).

The choices I see for Anakin are:
-- return to the Jedi, unlikely after he tasted the addictive power of the dark side
-- remain Palpatine's whipping boy
-- put a plan into action that results in someone else killing Palpatine

Many have stated perplexity over Vader blocking Luke's saber blow at Palpatine on DSII, which would have been the third option above. Recall that Darth Sidious was able to defeat 4 master jedi and then the great Yoda with his absolute dark powers. Had Vader not blocked Luke's blow, I'm sure Palps had a plan 'B' ready and waiting -- and you can almost see that in Palps' eyes as he coaxes Luke to 'take his weapon and strike him down.'

Vader knew without a doubt that he had no choice but to block Luke and obey his master -- for the time being. Had he not, a force-weakened Vader and a not-ready Luke would surely have paid a terrible price, even if both had attacked Palpsidious. Something tells me old lizard face had a little something up his sleeve, just in case.

 

im talking about inmediatelly post ROTS and you know it

 

Haha, OWNED.

 

Think about it. Would he have destroyed Palpatine? Perhaps. But honestly, Palpatine never lied. He said that Padme died - she'd still be dead. Seeing his children wouldn't have changed that. He believed that she died at his hand, and in a way, she still did. Even if he had destroyed Palpatine, it would have been in a fit of darkness. And if you remember past comments from Anakin, he believed in Emperor-ship. He felt strongly in his convictions and would probably have taken throne himself, presumably for the good of the Republic, with his children ruling at his side.

 

Anakin re-emerged from Vader because of his discovery that Luke was alive. This also confirmed to Vader that he didn't kill Padme and that she was indeed alive since he felt it as he stated.

Yoda and Obi Wan witnessing Padme's death and the birth of the twins enlightened them on Anakin's motivations for succumbing to the dark side. This motivation being the love and compassion for family; something traditional Jedi have no experience in and therefore can't really judge. This is why Luke and Leia are the last hope as stated in Ep 5. Padme's dying words are testement that beneath Vader's treachery is the shadow of a good man, still there but lost in the darkside; blinded by the darkside.

In Ep 4 Obi Wan knows this and so instead of striking down Vader he trusts his feelings that if he kills Vader, Anakin dies with him. Once in the Netherworld, Obi Wan contacts Yoda (or perhaps they spoke already through Qui Gon) and they form a plan to train Luke in the basics of Jedi creed so that when he faces Vader he won't fall. And since Vader will be unable to kill family directly linked to Padme; Vader will be forced to either convert Luke or die.

But then something remarkable happens. Luke spares Vader and it leads to the end of the Sith. His children are not only the instrument of his redemption but the reason it happened at all. I think this would be true no matter what happened regarding Padme.

 

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Please provide quote from Lucas saying this, I'm not saying your wrong, I just dont remember that quote, thanx.

 

The quote I think you may be reffering to is the one where Lucas says that Anakin died becasue of his injuries and that the only way for him to redeem himself was giving his life up to save his son, that self sacrifice is the ultimate sign of compassion which is totally opposite of the Sith which is to live for ever which is the ultimate sing of greed.

I dont think it has anythind to do with the Prophecy,Anakin did destroy the Sith and brought balance, he just happened to redeam himself as well.

On topic: I do believe Vader would have been conflicted with emotion ealier had your theory happened, but not sure how it would play out.

 

If Vader had found his kids and started to train them and plot against Sidious, he would surely sense it and have both Vader and the children killed.

Have you watched ROTJ? Anakin leaves the dark side while he watches Sidious starting to kill Luke. In that scene alone, he is leaving the dark side for his children.

As Yoda said, the darkside will forever dominate someone's destiny should they walk the path. Even though Vader showed compassion to Luke, should he have lived (ie let's say Palpatine didn't zap him) I'd imagine he'd always be at terrible risk of renewing his position as Dark Lord of the Sith. While Luke doesn't accept it, I think Vader had to die.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this and only because of the symbolism of Anakin in the Netherworld. We see him wearing the tan and white Jedi garb like when he was nine at the end of TPM. It's like saying that this is the Jedi Anakin would have been if Sidious hadn't been training him to become a Sith Lord without his knowledge. It's no mystery to me that his emotional instability was due to his mentor ever since he arrived on the central system of the Republic.

"I have told you many times, you are the most gifted Jedi I have ever seen."

This kind of ego inflating posturing is counter to the humble creed that the Jedi are constantly trying to instill in Anakin. This conflict of interest is what sets the stage for his fall.

That being said; it is true that he had to die to destroy the Sith, but not because he was one of them but because he couldn't take out Sidious any other way. The reason for this is the risk of getting hit with lightning on his suit. Once he lets go of his craving for power and no longer cares about his own destiny; he saves Luke knowing that it'll be the death of him. Motivation is everything.

As a kid I always fanticised about what Anakin would have been like if he survived. I imagine him weaing a newly constructed suit of white and tan with friendlier designs to promote comfort rather than intimidation. I imagined him with a blue saber again and helping his son build a new Jedi Order.

But as I've gotten older I see that all these things are accomplished when Anakin reached the Netherworld; minus a new suit and blue saber.

 

I think the main point is Anakin is NOT thinking about HIMSELF at all, the complete selfless act for anothers life, for someone that had shown him love when he himself did not desrve it, Luke had shown faith in him, regardless of the horrible things he had done, and Anakin was going to do WHATEVER it took to to stop it.

So, basically I dont think Anakin thought about whether or not he would live or die, because he was not thinking of himself. He was redeemed for his return to the light and the greatest act of selflessness. He cant be trying to redeem himself, becaause then he would be thinking of himself. He died because of his injuries, not because he had to.

 

Anakin would have to totally give up the Dark Side, which I don't think he would've done. He needed someone to bring him back to the light and that's where Luke comes in. Just finding out they're alive is not enough. He has to be shown the error of his ways and at this point, only Luke can do that.

 

Ultimately he chose a selfless act but the shots of him looking between Palpatine and Luke showed that he was conflicted as to what to do.

I have a hard time imagining what's going through Vader's mind that would make him question whether he should favor Sidious over Luke and I guess it's open to speculation (unless it's mentioned on the ROTJ commentary?)

i.e. is he thinking "Luke is my son, he needs my help... but Sidious will kill me..."

or perhaps Sidious was still hanging the idea over Vader's head that he knew how to create life and could ultimately cure Vader

"Luke is my son, I should help him... but then I'll never learn Sidious' power and I will be trapped in this suit forever..."


either way just as there was with Mace, there is a conflict. And the point I was trying to make is that even though Anakin made a mistake by cutting off Mace's hand and it eventually doomed him to the dark side, he never lost the capacity for good. Likewise he did good when he killed Sidious and saved Luke, but I feel he still has the capacity for evil should he ever be faced with similar circumstance and that it was essential that he die, as his power would be a great threat if he ever became evil again. By killing Palpatine and himself he eliminated this threat and redeemed himself.

 

I agree with alot of what you said. Perhaps he was still conficted, It appears he has been since ESB. I dont think that killing Palps had anything to do with his redimption though, if he would of still been thinking like a Sith, he would not of saved Luke, because Vader would still be thinking of himself so, hence he would not of saved himself whether he killed Palps or not.

I agree that Luke had to show Anakin the path, and Anakin had to choose for himself whether or not to walk it, so Luke had to be old enough to confront his Father and show him the light. Although IF Vader would of found out the twins lived, his conflict could of made him quiestion Palps a bit sooner, and possibily try to capture the twins or as the old " There is still good in him: Anakin will let Obi Wan and Luke go" thread that exist in some form (kinda,LOL) around here, that some theorized that Anakin would let the twins be raised by the Jedi, or whom ever, and once they were old enough, and the Emporer sensed the presence if the Force, Vader would find them for his greedy self, to use to overthrow the Palps. THis was just a theory ofcourse, and THE best I'd ever read.

 

Obi Wan was an example for Vader to see the right way. Obi Wan stopped fighting and became completely passive and yet Vader killed him anyway. Luke didn't teach Vader or Anakin anything he didn't already know.

"It is too late for me son." Vader ROTJ

When Vader learns his son is alive; the old wound festers and gnaws at his conscience. The death of Padme sealed Vader's suffering and amplified his hatred of Obi Wan.

Anakin only comes back because the good in him will not allow Sidious to kill his son. It's about family. Family is the connection that Luke and Leia have over Obi Wan and Yoda. Family is the reason Anakin fell in the first place and only his love for family can bring him back. The idea that Luke had to become old enough to teach Anakin anything is wrong. He already knows right from wrong and if Sidious had tried to kill Luke or Leia as a baby the result would have been the same. The only lesson Anakin learns from Luke is that it's possible to not turn when tempted, that no one is consigned to the will of another even unto death. And this is why the children were hidden, because if they developed and grew away from the manipulations of Sidious (unlike Anakin) then they would not fall.

Obi Wan and Yoda could have easily served the same purpose; except that Sidious was not interested in them. Only the children of the chosen one would serve as a suitable replacement for Vader and at the same time they were the only real threat to Sidious because of Anakin's close tie to family. Family came before politics and before loyalties to any code: Jedi or Sith.

If this wasn't the case then the idea that Luke and Leia are the last hope is void and null. Yoda and Obi Wan had more knowledge and skill than Luke would ever have in the short FOUR years of training virtually by himself. Luke's only importance is that he didn't fall like his father so that Sidious would force his hand and reveal himself as the real aggressor in everything.

 

In my opinion, Anakin could have been saved by his babies. Eventualy he was, but it would happen sooner if he had got a chance to see them. I also think that he could have been turned back to the light by Padme if Obi-Wan hadn't showed up on Mustafar.

 

vader was half way to attack her already before he even saw obi wan.that conversation was going nowhere...but thats only IMHO

 

He wouldn't have hurt them. He would have turned back a lot sooner.