What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?

While it's been quite a few years and Dark Empire doesn't have a lot of influence on the EU anymore, it was pretty major when it came out, being some of the only EU other than the Thrawn novels.

While I originally liked DE (mind you, I was probably 8 when I first read it, it's been at least 10+ years since it came out) but after Episode I came out, it seriously started to bug me.

Anakin Skywalker is the Chosen One. He brought balance to the Force by destroying Darth Sidious. Oh hey, look, Palpatine is back from the dead, and Vader's sacrifice and role as the Chosen One now means nothing.

I've really begun to hate Dark Empire. Not just because Palpatine's revival kills ROTJ's ending, but it just isn't very good. At all.

Luke turns to the dark side. Okay, what? Luke going evil and killing a bunch of Rebels is pretty uncharacteristic of him, but then he turns good again and everybody's cool with it. Sure, you could say the same about Vader, but Vader would have probably gotten one hell of a trial and would spend the rest of his life behind bars at a minimum if he wasn't executed for war crimes, even though he realized the error in his ways and was sorry for what he did.

Han Solo is the one who finally kills the Emperor. Very lame. You'd think it would at least be Luke, because Han, who doesn't have the force, killing the one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history seems a little silly. Not to mention VERY anti-climactic.

The story itself is very jarring and chaotic. Reading the comic, it doesn't really seem to have any logical progression or make any sense. It's all very... random. Plus, I guess it tries to be gritty, and while gritty can be good, it just isn't working here. Also, what's up with the colors? I guess they were trying to be "artsy" or something, but one color per panel just seems lazy, and isn't very easy on the eyes.

Not that my opinion really matters in the grand scheme of things, but I almost wish someday it would be removed from canon, along with the "Glove of Darth Vader" series. In my own little world, I try to pretend it never happened, along with a couple Batman movies and any Sonic the Hedgehog game made after 1995. I remain hopeful that some author will at least retcon Palpatine's resurrection out of continuity, saying that he was just a clone of Palpatine in body, and not in spirit. I doubt it will ever happen, though.

Well, now that I've ranted for a bit, what's your opinion on Dark Empire? Do you think that it hurts the Saga, or is it a valuable part of the EU? I'm kinda interested to see if people share my sentiment, or if I'm just complaining about something silly.

 

Don't I have a copyright on this icon? I don't see it that often...

--Adm. Nick

 

Kinda like how I have copyright on mine

GL likes DE though. IMHo one of the best oarts of DE is where we explore Han Solo's life before ANH (i.e. Salla, Miko and Ninks)

 

People seem to either love it or hate it, and there isn't a lot of middle ground. I liked it, and don't think it screwed things up as much as people say.
For one thing, I don't remember Luke killing anyone other than Palpatine's tanked clones. If anything, he helped to turn the tide by giving Artoo the control codes to the World Devastators and sending him with Han and Leia. Mostly, he just sat around on Byss getting his hand replaced.
Anyway, I liked Dark Empire, although DE2 wasn't really as good, and I haven't read Empire's end. Personally, I think they should have stopped after the first series and had Palpatine's final death be at the hand of Luke, Leia, and the unborn Anakin Solo.

 

Basically, for me, Dark Empire has become an elephant in the closet because while I love the comic book. I hate the sequels. Also, I'm so gut sick of fandom attacking it at every turn in order to prove their geek credibility. Mocking Dark Empire has become such a tired and cliche thing to do, I've lost out on some people's opinions because I automatically assume anyone who has a problem with it isn't actually remotely interested in the comic itself but only wants to prove himself cool by regurgitating tired challenges to it.

For me, it boils down to the following things.

* Anyone who brings up the word "Chosen One" apparently can't understand the concept of the comic preceding the Prequels.

* Anyone who can't comprehend Luke is going undercover as a Dark Sider, saves Mon Calamari but NEARLY LOSES HIS SOUL misses the theme that Palpatine couldn't care less about the Rebellion. It's all about the spiritual struggle

In the end, it was the only comic for me that did five things.

* Made the Sith to be the grandiose threats they are.
* Allowed Luke to be a proper Jedi master fighting proper threats to his statue.
* Made Leia out to be Luke's equal as a Force user potentially.
* Made the Empire the Satanic Army they are with no apologies.
* Treated the Jedi with reverence and respect.

 

I like Admiral Ackbar. Are you trying to lead me into some kind of TRAP!?!?!

Yeah, you're not the only one, I hate myself for making that joke, too.

I'm not attacking it to try and be "a cool geek", it's because it bugs me. I didn't even know people were dissing it a lot before. I'm not trying to prove myself, and I was interested in them. I own the books and I've read them. Chill man, you almost seem to be taking this personally, the fact that I don't like them doesn't make the fact that you enjoy them less valid. My opinion is just an opinion.

Sure, it was made before the prequels, but that isn't really why I'm calling it out. Even if Episode I-III were never made, it still cheapens ROTJ's ending. People don't still call Boba Fett Jaster Mereel. I just think the Saga as a whole would flow better if the Clone Palapatine was just that - a clone and not the spirit of Palpatine himself.

 

I don't know, Nick, I think he just earned it with that one.

I love Luke vs. AT-AT. It's hard to say it, but we've never seen vaunted badass Kyle Katarn do anything that cool (except in the collective imaginations of the CoK)

And in my personal canon, the retcon that Palpatine was lying when he said his Reactor Shaft fall wasn't his first death is him being perfectly frank.

All around, one of my favorite parts of the EU, though the sequals suffer from sequal syndrome...

 

I agree with Charlemagne19 100%.

 

E107_Theta:

Damned fine work sir, damned fine.

As the official greatest Ackbar fan on these boards, I give you my blessing to use that icon. Any joke with a "trap" in it earns my instant respect.

Anyways, what was this thread about again.

--Adm. Nick

 

Traps?

 

I loved DE and DE2, they have their bugs but on the whole are great, Star Warsy stories with awesome art (the art seems to be a major reason why many fans can't stand DE, but I think Cam Kennedy's stuff is wonderful and really gets you into the gloomy period the galaxy is in). Empire's End on the other hand...*shudders*. It still deserves a remake.

 

Agreed. The art really captures the sense of desparation that the New Republic and the Heroes of Yavin were in. Gloomy colors add to the overall feel of the state of the galaxy at that point. It is also great how each world Cam depicted got a color. Mon Calamari is all greens, Nar Shadda blacks and blues, Da Soocha pinks and purples, etc.

--Adm. Nick

 

I am still dying to get my hands on a Dark Empire Sourcebook. Those old WEG books are some of my favorite things to read for some reason.

 

Probably because, in general, they're very good pieces of work.

 

Not trying to diss the original poster, just saying it's a well worn argument with both sides well dug in.

 

Absolutely hate it. And for pretty much every reason you stated. AND it's not in my personal canon... i.e. lalalalala. I'm a cool geek.

 

groan

I bought DE, and I hated it, hated it, hated it.

OK, I can see Luke's need to search out his father's past and his father's motivations, but what it did with Palpatine -- !

Did I mention I hated it???

Somebody ... a LOT of somebodies ... are wayyy off base when it comes to portraying Palpatine. A great villain, especially in the GFFA, is precious, and should never be thrown away like confetti. When The Powers That Be chose this way to expand Palpatine's story, they had a potential gold mine (I'm not talking about money, here) and threw it right down the toilet.

Great villains can do what no other character can do: they can open up ways to present deep insights in a way no other character in a story can.

Especially in a SW story, because this film series is beloved worldwide and presents important knowledge that is needed by all mankind in a way which no other fictional universe, existing or yet to be invented, is able to.

If Palpatine were handled properly, SW could transcend the boundary of "media-tie-in fiction," "candy for the brain," "not real science fiction," or whatever the impression non-SW readers have of it is, and enter the realm of great, award-winning literature. [Before everybody bashes me, please read the preceding sentence again. It is a comment on what I think people who don't read SW think, not a comment on what I myself think.]

Back to great, award-winning literature. I'm talking the kind of thing that people who read Marianne Williamson would buy ... the kind of thing that people who read Neale Donald Walsch would buy ... the kind of thing that people who read Wayne Dyer would buy. The kind of thing that people who read Sister Helen Prejean would buy.

The kind of thing that people who read Martha Beck would buy. The kind of thing that people who liked _The Dharma of Star Wars_ would buy. The kind of thing that people who read _A Course in Miracles_ would buy. I'm talking National Book Award caliber stuff, here.

But the few people who actually have the power to commission these sorts of books, or to write a SW book at all, look at the character ... and all they can come up with is, I'm sorry, but -- horse-you-know-what like DE.

If you don't believe me, look at my sig. I can prove it.

 

I've known about DE for the last decade or so, but didn't get hold of it until very recently. What I knew of it -- comic where Luke goes to the Dark Side -- made it sound like the coolest plot ever, and I wished, until I got it, that I could read it. And, indeed, I still think Dark Empire has one of the coolest premises in the EU. Luke putting his soul and his friendship with Han and Leia to save the Rebellion by going after the Dark Side and the Empire from within? Luke taking this epic step in his journey to become a master -- dabbling in the Dark Side and throwing it off for the light? Awesome.

I'll admit, I was kind of disappointed when I wound up with a copy, but my problems are mostly with the execution of the story. For one, I'm not a big fan of the art style in the comic. Jem makes me go "What?" and the... steam-powered space ships or something? Weird. The Galaxy Gun is a silly weapon with a sillier name (the series' arsenal is, thankfully, saved by the World Devastators, which I thought were pretty cool). Clones are odd. Clones trying to take over Anakin Solo are weird. Sedriss is a funny man. I'm pretty sure I could keep this list going on, but...

... for me, none of those flaws are able to overshadow "HAH! LUKE GOING TO THE DARK SIDE TO SAVE THE GALAXY IS SO COOL."

And that's the bottom line of why I still like Dark Empire.

(Well, also, the hilarious radio dramas kept me occupied on a three-hour trek through below-freezing temperatures and awful winds to find a Trader Joes off the metro in Maryland. For that, I can never hate Dark Empire.)

***

As for some of the accusations in the original post -- the clones, imho, are pretty inferior to the real Palpatine. They're twisted beyond the point of sanity by the Dark Side. Luke would never have been able to pull Dark Empire off with the real Palpatine, and seven years without Palpatine was a blessing to the Rebellion. Same for Han killing the Emperor -- it's not Sith Lord Palpatine, it's Some Crazy Clone. As for the art (which I'll admit, I also disliked), it's one of those flaws that doesn't ruin the series as a whole.

 

One of the main problems I have with the EU is that a lot of it seems like a "Oh, what can we make Luke/Han/Jacen/Leia/Obi-Wan/Anakin etc. do now to sell books?"

While there are good elements in DE, like the parts about Han, it doesn't necessarily make good storytelling. It seems not very well-thought-out. Kind of like a knee-jerk plot, you virtually have to be a Luceno, a Stackpole or a Stover to make it work (and they've done some toughies!)

I could argue the same sort of thing with Jacen's character arc following NJO. So disappointing

 

Oddly, can we keep all 3 books seperate?

When we say Crimson Empire we mean the original book series.

I like Dark Empire.

Dark Empire II and Empire's End were just badly written and inconsistent with the first comic.

 

kam Solusar's not so bad, neither is Sedriss.

 

Wish it never existed! it screws the whole EU.

 

One of the main problems I have with the EU is that a lot of it seems like a "Oh, what can we make Luke/Han/Jacen/Leia/Obi-Wan/Anakin etc. do now to sell books?"

QFT.

I don't own much of the stuff.

At all.