What do we know about Darth Ruin's Sith, and the thousand-year New Sith Wars?

Right now, this seems like the biggest significant blank in galactic history and our background knowledge. The 1000 years of peace before the movies saw the rise of powerful trade corporations, the Sith surviving in secret with the Rule of Two, and the reform and eventual decline of the Galactic Republic and Jedi Order. But before the Battle of Ruusan that started this era, there were one thousand years of war!

[image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/68/NewSithWars.JPG]

This period is known as the "New Sith Wars," the Republic's government and military were effectively taken over by the Jedi. For some time, the Republic itself basically was driven to a small remnant in the galaxy. We know it ended with Hoth's "Army of Light" facing Kaan's "Brotherhood of Darkness" at the final battle of Ruusan, with Darth Bane being the only Sith to survive. We know that Kaan and his Brotherhood only came to power at the very end of the New Sith Wars.

The New Sith Wars are also known as the Light and Darkness War, included the Republic Dark Age and the Draggulch Period, and was known by the Sith as the War of the Fittest, the Betrayal, and The Curse of Qalydon. It is more like a series of wars against a common and persisent enemy (the Sith), than one single millennium-spanning war.

What happened in the thousand year period before Kaan and Bane?

[image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/6c/DarthRuin-EGF.jpg]

We have some vague details on how it all started, with Jedi Master Phanius leaving the Jedi Order as one of the first of the "Lost Twenty," to secretly re-emerge later as the mysterious Dark Lord of the Sith and unrecognized by the Jedi.

Darth Ruin was intelligent and charismatic but single-minded and ambitious, with a philosophy of moral realtivism and solipsism, believing nothing was real outside of his own muind, he was the universe and he was "god." He united the surviving Sith clans and recruited 50 Jedi Knights to his cause, and they later betrayed and killed Darth Ruin after starting the thousand-year New Sith Wars.

Like with Darth Bane, the basic concept of Darth Ruin was conceived of as backstory by George Lucas himself, one of the few EU elements he has directly created. He was envisioned to be the original founder of the Sith, but since the Sith had already been established much earlier by the EU, Darth Ruin's incarnation of the Sith became the "4th Schism" of the Jedi Order.




There are 1000 years between Ruin abd Bane too! The HoloNet and interstellar commerce collapsed at some time. Jedi became Supreme Chancellors, seized military control. The Kuati shipyards were the backbone of the Republic's military. The Sith Lord changeling Belia Darzu created the Technobeasts, it included the reign of the phantom Dark Underlord summoned to life from Chaos. But there are very few details.

[image=http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/a/a8/Dark-underlord.jpg]


What else do we know? What else do we want to know?

These are 1000 critical but untouched years in the EU, with a dramatic setting, plenty of story potential, and we only know the very ending in any detail. I think this era would be great to have the next long book series set in.

 

Why ToR wasn't set in this era and called: "ToR: New Sith Wars"?

 

Not got much time to post.

My general feeling of late is that the New Sith Wars was probably not so much a literal period of a thousand years of war, but probably like the Old Sith Wars and merely a period of a thousand years during which there were a series of only loosely related independent conflicts. Kind of like how Exar Kun's war and Darth Revan's war are not "one war", but are part of the overarching "Old Sith Wars".

It seems we have several distinct periods of significant warfare, Darth Ruin's New Sith Empire, the Dark Underlords campaign, Belia Darzu's Sictis Wars, Darth Ruin's activities, the final Draggulch Period/collapse of the Sith Empire of the time, and lastly the Brotherhood of Darkness's relatively short lived Sith resurgence.

I do think though that there may have been a recognised public Sith Empire (in a kind of TOR sense) for large swathes of time. It seems unlike the Old Sith Wars where there were very independent Sith Empires rise and fall, rise and fall, the New Sith Wars may have established a New Sith Empire that never was "destroyed" per se until the Draggulch Period, but maintained a tight hold over a portion of the Outer Rim for several centuries, with constant border skirmishes, but only full on major "wars" once century or two.

Anyway, will post more later when I have more time.

EDIT: Oh, and, QFT Ulicus about TOR.

And I just want to see Darth Ruin...uh, "Darth Solipsis" become a "Rule of I" Sith who doesn't give a toss about his followers, drains their souls like Bane tried in the comic, and becomes a living demigod of obscene power, thus requiring all 50 Sith Lords he may have trained up to battle him all at once in order to take him down.

Yeah... I just want a literal Sith "Dark Side God" sort of bad guy.

 

very very interesting...

 

Following up my earlier comment on Darth Ruin: If ever a book is written about him (or a comic, or a game made, or anything else) then he absolutely MUST utter the words:

"Now. I, Ruin, am Master the Universe."

That would make me an ecstatically overjoyed Sith fanboi.

Seriously, screw Sith Orders, screw "Two" Sith, screw the "One Sith Order". I want to see the Rule of ONE. And I mean just one. Nobody else. Ruin and Ruin alone. To hell with all this "you need an apprentice or your work will die with you" schutta. I want a Sith Lord who is so utterly out of his mind that he wants to rule every last facet of existence forever.

Even Palpatine mostly just talked about ruling the Galaxy. Forget the Galaxy. Heck, forget just the Universe while we're at it. The entire Multiverse, Otherspace, the Force, the Dark Side, Chaos, everything.

That's the Darth Ruin I want to see. "Darth Solipsis", as he almost was named.

Basically, a guy that was turned on by his own Sith because even they grew to fear him as an utterly deranged lunatic who saw them as nothing more than figments of his imagination, cogs not in the great cosmic wheel, but of him. Everyone, Jedi and Sith alike, extensions of his will, his creation, his being.

If Nihilus was scary because he wanted to bring Death... Ruin is scary because he was totally, completely, utterly out of it. Nihilus had a goal. Ruin didn't just want to be God, he literally thought he was God. I want obscene Force usage where he just looks at you and you turn to ash, "erased" from the face of reality because he so wills it: that being why it took so many people to bring him down. Phoenix from the third X-Men movie, where she just literally obliterated the people as they tried to come at her.

If the Republic was healed from the Old Sith Wars... then Ruin is the sledgehammer than flew in and obliterated all stability in the Galaxy, smashing society and the Jedi Order apart such that he was the cause of everything that has happened since then: the Sith were defeated for more than a thousand years, nearly two thousand (1700 now per TOR). But then, KABOOM, Ruin trashed it all, and it's never been the same since. Even Ruusan only achieved a false sense of security. I like the fact that the Galaxy was genuinely at peace until Ruin screwed it all up.

Basically: He was Dark Empire's Palpatine.

Which I find fitting, because Dark Empire was essentially the moment of Palpatine's "triumph" when he believed he had finally won. Ergo, after 2000 years, the legacy of Darth Ruin returned: the legacy of the Rule of I reborn in Palpatine... only to implode just as quickly when his own people realised he had got to be stopped (Lumiya, Jax, etc).

 

Indeed.

The Creed of Ruin is basically what has made me totally fall in love with the character.

 

Very, very nice Zor. Sign me up!

In some ways, I almost hope that the character isn't ever explored (beyond articles Abel wishes to write) simply because... well, I'm not sure there are many people who what you've just described justice... and I fear that he'd be turned into 'just another' DLotS.

Still, if there was *anyone* suited to be a BIG BAD LICH KING that all sides, good and evil, had to unite against to destroy... well, this guy would have fit the bill. No need for BioWare to create their own Sith Emperor, really.

Since it's not in this thread when it really should be:

THE CREED OF RUIN
There is no passion. There is solely obsession.
There is no knowledge. There is solely conviction.
There is no purpose. There is solely will.
There is nothing. Only me.

(I think I remembered it right. There might've been . . . s in it though. Man, I love Abel for inventing the above. Love him.)

 

Yeah... I agree, sadly.

I like the Lich King analogy... that is quite fitting actually.

Part of me kind of just wants Ruin to be left to Abel too. I really worry about them one day turning him into "just another Dark Lord". The whole "solipsism", "thinks he's god" angle has so much potential, but apart from KOTOR2 we've never really seen the EU think way outside the box for Sith Lords.

As the guy who literally single-handedly resurrected the Sith Order though, I don't think it would do him justice to just be another Dark Lord. Resurrections are dull when generic. I want to see him not just resurrect but reshape, re-envision, and remake it in his image: I want him to be the reason the Sith have never disappeared since. In the Old Sith Wars, there were centuries between each isolated, independent bunch of Sith Lords. Since Ruin, there has been an almost continuous chain of Sith, with the only "break" when Bane sent them underground--but even then, they were always there in the shadows. This dude is the literal "Progenitor" of the New Sith, particularly when put in context of Lucas's original "2000 years old" ideas, which is why I think he should really be built up as special.

I wouldn't actually mind if he was the person who caused the "Darth just causes problems" problem. Basically that, after Ruin, Darth became synonymous for "I". There was no "Order" in "Darth". We know Darth Rivan studied the Creed of Ruin, for instance. I rather like that the Creed of Ruin was synomyous with the usage of Darth during the New Sith Wars, such that those who became Darths held themselves above the other Lords, causing the infighting that prevented the New Sith Empire from ever conquering the Galaxy.

Basically, if you used the Darth title in the New Sith Wars, it was in homage to the principles set down by Darth Ruin--he was the figure you were emanating. For the "New Sith" Ruin was the Genesis of the Sith Order: they didn't look further back than him. That was until Kaan burned everything about Ruin, forcing Bane to "go back to basics", and return to source: Darth Revan (who one can assume Ruin himself may have been emanating).

But... yeah... "Now. I, Ruin, am Master of the Universe." That just so has to happen.

 

But... he *is* the universe!

When he's finally confronted by the folks who eventually kill him, I want them to challenge his philosophy (pointing out that it makes no sense that he is everything if they're trying to kill him) and I want Ruin to deadpan back:

I always was my own worst enemy.



No! Even better:

Well, the Jedi always said I'd do myself in.

Hmm. A little too comical, now.

I'd respond more fully to what you just posted above (which is worth discussion) I'm just far too lazy and chilled out right now.

 

Hey Zor you do know they havent name the Sith Emperor for TOR, right? Imagine if that was Darth Ruin... would you like that?

 

I think we'll find that the war between the Republic and the Sith Empire in TOR will also be classified as part of the Old Sith Wars.

 

I'm not sure how else I can sum up how much awesome is packed in to all of Zor's posts in this thread.

 

In an odd kind of way (no clue how it'd actually work though) I actually think talking the guy out of his god complex is possibly the only way there'd be of stopping someone who has achieved such a "perfect dark side zen" moment. Kind of like the way Sion had to defeated. Or, to use the example again, Phoenix: sure, she had to be stabbed in the end too, but it took talking her down to even get remotely close enough. It'd be interesting if he somehow... thought himself out of existence. *pop* Gone. Does that make any sense?

Not sure though. Admittedly, thinking himself out of existence isn't exactly a glorious fight. I don't really know how you'd go about 50 people taking on an immortal demigod though. The Sion thing worked okay on screen, I think the philosophical defeat was less successful with Cronal in Mindor because it's harder to make flashy on paper, so a similar thing with Ruin would need to be well crafted to not belittle his fall.

Back to Sion, I don't want Ruin to be a walking corpse, but I do think it would be awesome if the reason all later Darths during the New Sith Wars looked back to him for inspiration was because he actually came close to achieving perfection: kind of the dark side equivalent of Jacen's TUF moment. They didn't look further back in Sith history, because they didn't need to: he was the only idol they needed. The perfection of Yoda's "if you can believe it, you can do it" attitude to the Force: Ruin believed he was god, so he achieved no restrictions. I will clarify though, that I don't feel this is being overpowered: not everyone is mentally ill. Ruin would only believe this because he would genuinely be completely off his rocker. Even Yoda faced the doubts that come from existing in a universe that has rules regarding gravity, midichlorians, life, death, and countless other "facts of life". Ruin would just be nuts. Completely, utterly nuts. He'd believe it because he'd honestly think he was the Universe and that everything was just in his own mind.

Like Abel says in what Darth-Ghost quoted: this dude is like Traya's belief in being able to destroy the Force. He's loopy. Totally.

I think it is silly every later Darth looked back as far as Revan: that should remain something special that Bane did because of Kaan disposing of all information pertaining to the recent New Sith Empire. But making Darth Ruin the Darth who all subsequent Darths looked up to would make a very unique statement about the usage of the Darth title during the New Sith Wars as embodying exactly what Kaan said it had: total self obsession. Or, as I worded it earlier, the Rule of "I" (mainly because the Rule of One is taken ).

It also makes double irony of his name: he didn't just bring ruin on the Galaxy, the Creed of Ruin would genuinely have brought ruin to the Sith Order for the next thousand years until Kaan disposed of it. The caveat, of course, is that none of the subsequent minor Darths during the New Sith Wars suffered from the same mental delusion as Ruin, so they weren't able to just take the Creed of Ruin and become godlike. (Although, I do think that Darth Rivan may have come close, given his staff managed to teleport an entire star system into the future. )

Which raises the question: could Darth Ruin have created the Darkstaff?

EDIT: Reading the Wookiee's Darkstaff page... I actually notice it is described as "sentient" and D

 

Presumably so they could tie up the "True Sith" plotline and Revan and the Exile's stories.

Also, I am starting to get the idea that the New Sith Wars are being treated like Yoda and Palpatine's past: there is no way to properly do such an epic event justice, so they just hint at what happened.

About Darth Ruin:
First of all, where did that creed come from?

Second: I agree about making him a badass....
But I want him to have an anti-climatic death. No "50 Sith work together" or anything like that.

More specifically, I would like to see him get own Caleb style. I think Caleb has to be one of my all time favorite Star Wars characters...I know he pretty much exists to heal the Sith and give out to them, but I like how he gave a Sith lord pause not with his fighting abilities,, but his pure will to resist. And hr brings up an interesting philosophical point:
Power can not be taken, it must given. Enemies can threaten to kill you, torture you, or hurt what you love...but you still always have a choice whether or not to obey.

To defeat a villain in combat is one thing, but it is all the sweeter to destroy his philosophy. Imagine a prisoner tied up and helpless before him, and they trade some insults which turns in a philosophical discussion...and we see Ruin break down bit by bit as the prisoner proves that Ruin, for all his skill with a saber, for all his power in the force, for all the might of his armies, has no power over the prisoner.
We see the others in the room being affected as well, and as Ruin loses and raises his saber to strike, he is shot in the back by a lowly guard.
The war continues, and the man who sought he was the universe is quickly forgotten.

 

I never knew about Ruin's mental issues before, which casts the bit about him in the TPM novel where it's said he went before the Council to attempt to get the Jedi to follow him.

Ruin: "My Master, I have come to the following conclusion: All of you are actually me."

Council: "....What?"

 

It was of the Dawn of Defiance WotC web content modules.

Not sure what the name of the module was without looking it up... think it was the one with "Sith" in the name. One of the earlier ones... something like Module #4.

 

I find the concept of a "thousand years of war" a little hard to swallow, let alone airlock after digestion. Just saying.

Does anyone Exgree on this with me?

 

It's not a continual war, Ex; think of it more like Israel and the Arabs from 1949 to 1973-just even longer and with even more unreasonable people involved; a major war between the two sides every decade or so.

 

They've been bickering 3000yrs, DarthBoba. They got oil; we want it. Nothing going to change there. But is this official? It was sporadic conflict like the Eng-French "100" years war? A "state of war?"

 

Yeah, it is.

New Sith War

There's a timeline graphic at the bottom of the page; it shows anywhere from dozens to hundreds of years between major events.

 

The Millenium War, then, is a very generous way of terming of it. Hmmm... so be it.

 

That's why I choose to believe it was not a literal 1000 year war, but a 1000 year period filled with various wars.

The Old Sith Wars (on the basis TOR is probably going to be bunched in with them) last... what? 400 years or so? There wasn't one constant war though.

The only things I feel that may have really made the New Sith Wars different are: 1. They involved the, um, New Sith. That is to say, the successors of Darth Ruin, not various consequences of the Old Sith Empire like with Kun, Revan, or TOR. 2. There may have been a single "New Sith Empire" for 900 years--though like the Old Sith Empire, it might feasibly have gone into hiding, so been more like a "New Sith Empire Remnant" at various times; or it might have been like the revived Old Sith Empire in TOR: "recognised" by the Republic but too difficult to completely expunge.

I think I prefer the "Remnant(s)" idea personally: still perhaps having slightly more "consistency" than the very distinct Brotherhood of the Sith/Revan's Sith Empire/revived Old Sith Empire, but basically just going through a similar series of rises and falls.

Admittedly... part of me kind of wonders why Darth Ruin cared about creating his own Sith Empire exactly. Maybe he just initially went through the motions of having followers, using them to amass the knowledge he needed, then eventually discarded them, hence them turning on him in the end.

I wouldn't be against a "public" New Sith Empire for the latter 300 years of the wars though. That was the time when they had an unbroken line of Jedi Chancellors, I think? It seems logical that such a heightened state of alert in the Republic would have happened when the New Sith Empire and Republic were both so weakened through the various skirmishes in the preceding 700 years that neither had the military power to conquer the other: so for 200 years there was a similar situation to the 100 year Great War in TOR (the final 100 years of the 300 year period being the Dark Age/Draggulch Period when the Sith Empire was tearing itself apart as much as it was fighting the Republic).

Which I suppose either means Ruin's New Sith Empire was in hibernation as a Remnant for 700 odd years... or Ruin's New Sith Empire and the New Sith Empire that broke up just before Kaan took over were perhaps technically not entirely the "same thing" (which I wouldn't mind, if only because of my reservations about Ruin building a Sith Empire rather than simply a Sith Order).

I suppose though Exar Kun technically had his own "Sith Empire" even though he was only really in it for the knowledge too... so maybe my reservations are being a bit too narrow minded, and Ruin was just having an Empire for logistical reasons; but, like Kun, at the end of the day didn't really care less about his Empire.

Which actually I guess isn't any different to Palpatine himself: the Empire was only there as a stop gap until he achieved unholy dark godhood.

 

Either way, I hope that there's at least a millennium or so "Sith break" between 3000 and 2000 BBY.

(Though you can GUARANTEE that the minute it starts being filled in, people will be giving us yet more Sith Empires and Jedi vs Sith Wars I mean, jeez, show us the First Great Schism already)

Otherwise the whole point of the labels "Old Sith Wars" and "New Sith Wars" is kind of moot.