What If Darth Sion Met an Ysalamir?

This is kind of random, but I had an interesting thought. We know that Darth Sion is able to keep his body from decomposing by use of the Dark Side, but what if Sion were to get inside the Force bubble of an Ysalamir? Would his body just fall apart? Or would the bubble not be enough to neutralize the Dark Side energies keeping Sion's body together. I had this funny image in my mind of the Exile chucking an Ysalamir at Sion and watching him fall apart.

 

Yes! Awesome question!

I guess you're right. It would be like pulling up a deep sea fish really fast...he'd just fall apart

 

awesome question XD I myself believe in him falling apart, too, if he is not strong enough to overcome the bubble, like Luke learned some time according to a NJO novel

 

I never thought that ysalamiri's power-cancellation should be absolute -- it's their control of the Force working against the Force-user's. Remember that vornskrs developed their super-keen-Force-senses to *compensate* for ysalamari's force-cancellation, which wouldn't make any sense if ysalamari's anti-Force powers were absolute.

It's like we saw in the most recent episode of Heroes -- the Haitian exerts an anti-superpower bubble around himself, but when in the presence of an extremely powerful hero like Arthur Petrelli he has to actively struggle to "hold the power back".

The ysalamiri's powers may be enough to negate the abilities of your average Jedi, but I think for extreme outliers in terms of the degree or type of the power they wield, there might be exceptions. Darth Sion could be an example (though I think Darth Nihilus is a better one, with his being an incarnate void in the Force and all). Same if, say, you tried to bring an ysalamir directly into the Valley of the Jedi before Kyle freed the spirits from it.

 

I'm not sure if we've ever gotten an accurate description of the potential of the Ysalamiri Force-bubble, though I don't have many guide books hand, anyone have an idea?. I like to think its just an area where the Force is completely neutral, no matter how strong. That its a complete void where the Force just doesn't exist. On the other hand since the Force-bubble is a type of natural protection that evolved in the ysalamiri due to being hunted by Vornskrs, it may be that it has a limit. So far I don't think we've seen anyone break through one of their Force-bubbles (been a while since I read TTT so I could be wrong). Its probably more likely that someone with strong enough ability with the Force could be immune to the bubble, though I don't ever see ysalamiri having a hard time retaining their neutrality bubbles like the Haitian in last night's Heroes (good episode BTW).

I almost forgot about Nihilus, it would be interesting to see what effect an ysalamir would have on him (assuming that it would have an effect on him).

 

This thread is awesome purely because it gave me a mental image of someone flinging an ysalamiri through the air at him.

 

Ha ha, take that Sion! *flings hapless critter*

 

Anyone played Nethack? Anyone remember the devastating "rubber chicken" strategy with a dead cockatrice?

 

They should've made that an attack in KOTOR II.

 

There's a cheat code in Age of Empires where you can catapult cows instead of rocks... what if Galactic Battlegrounds had one with ysalamiri?

 

Here it is: Another great moment that makes me glad I'm still visitng this forum.

I'd like to add the question what would happen if an Ysalamiri moved towards a Force Ghost. "Hey Ben, what's up with your body's left side?"

 

Maybe that's why Ben left for good when he did... he knew where Luke would go later in the book.

 

Straight from the Threats of the Galaxy sourcebook for the Saga Edition of the SW RPG:

"Nullify Force - The Force-nullifying bubble that each ysalamiri creates has a 6-square (about 30 feet) radius centered on itself. Characters and creatures cannot employ Force powers, Force techniques, or Force secrets within a ysalamiri's bubble, nor can they make a Use the Force check of any kind. Force powers activated outside the bubble cannot penetrate it, and they cease to function if the user of the ability moves into the ysalamiri's radius. This ability is automatic; the ysalamiri cannot control it or turn it off. Force-users who are affected by the ysalamiri's nullify Force ability are immediately aware of it, and though they might not understand the source of the interference, they immediately recognize that attempts at using the Force are entirely futile."

So, yeah - arguably, one tossed ysalamir = a very nasty problem for Sion.

The problem is that, for the ysalamir, getting removed from their tree is essentially fatal. Not that getting tossed would be that healthy anyhow.

 

Thrawn's nutrient frames. Problem solved.

 

They could get someone to toss a tree... maybe a Scotsman.

Wait, didn't Sion have a scottish accent? Things are getting complicated...

 

That's basically a copy-paste from the D&D 3.5 Antimagic Field description.

Note that, by D&D standards, though, "magical creatures" are not counted as using "magic" simply by existing. Zombies and Skeletons in D&D do not crumble and die in an Antimagic Field; magical beings like Elementals and Demons don't cease to exist; etc. Arguably Darth Sion falls into that category.

D&D *does* stipulate that incorporeal beings temporarily "wink out" while in an AMF, though, which means that Glowin' Obi-Wan indeed cannot appear inside an ysalamiri's bubble.

(And, of course, Game Mechanics Are Not Canon! either way, but whatever.)

 

While we're on a related subject...didn't they originally only have two legs? What's up with this?

[image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/d/dd/YsalamiriEGttF.jpg]

Edit: We're talking direction from D&D now?

 

Given that I haven't read any of Wizards of the Coast's Star Wars RPG books myself but do know the D&D ruleset -- and the vague way the D&D RPG rules map onto what "really happens" in the "D&D world" -- I thought it was a fair comparison.

For the purposes of an RPG in general, what the RPG calls "using magic" for the sake of *game mechanics* is not identical with "magic" as a whole. That's pretty well established -- the same holds for video games (where just because "Force Seeing" makes Kyle see everything as glowy red and green outlines doesn't mean this is how it's actually supposed to work in "real life").

The fact that an RPG *game mechanic* says that the list of things the RPG describes as "Force powers, Force techniques or Force secrets" or a "Use the Force check" can't be used in an ysalamari bubble doesn't mean that it's canon that anything that can be described out-of-game as a "Force technique" is impossible, including stuff that's basic to the life-force of beings like Sion or Nihilus.

I mean, unless I see a SWRPG stat sheet for Darth Sion that officially says that for him "Continue To Not Fall Apart" is a "Force power, Force technique or Force secret" or that he has to roll a Use the Force check every round to not fall apart, then as a GM I would definitely rule against the Ysalamari Toss trick.

 

So doesn't that make a D&D comparison even less valid?

I mean, it's an interesting perspective, but I can't imagine how Sion holding himself together could be construed as anything other than use of the Force. He's not inherently "magical" like a Force ghost would be, but he's not something that has its roots in magic but no longer requires it to function like, debatably, a zombie.

Say, another tangential thought: if a Jedi Master dies within an ysalamiri bubble, can he still ghost?

Maybe we should rename this thread "Unusual Strategic Uses for Ysalamiri".

 

Well, the only way to actually settle this through a game mechanics argument would be to see an actual official writeup about it in the game.

Does, in fact, anyone know of an official Star Wars Saga Edition writeup of the stats for Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus or other KotOR-era villains?

ETA: Hrm. I'd definitely say Obi-Wan's weird trick of causing his body to vaporize in the process of becoming a Force ghost is something an ysalamir bubble would probably prevent. I wouldn't say that it means he'd never become a ghost at all, though -- the implication of that, that without an active "use" of the Force your soul isn't really a soul at all but just a pattern of brain impulses that disappears entirely when you die, seems to run straight against SW metaphysics.

Destiny's Way confirms/retcons that ysalamiri cannot truly "negate" the Force, which would be impossible and would in fact result in the end of existence or the death of all life within the bubble (just like Traitor tells us that the Vong can't truly be "outside" the Force or they couldn't live, and instead are just outside the Force as the Jedi perceive it). So the ysalamiri bubble instead forces the Force to be "neutral" -- it neutralizes all *active manifestations* of the Force, but the Force continues to exist inside it giving life to all things and binding all life together (including the ysalamiri's) and so forth.

So I'd say the ability to become a Force-ghost out there in the Netherworld of the Force is definitely still there even if you die right in the middle of a nest of ysalamiri. You just wouldn't be able to manifest within that bubble, or cause your corpse to shimmer and disappear (in the weird way that LotF implies Jedi have the power to from beyond the grave).

I suppose along these lines one could ask whether Darth Sion's life is the result of him actively manifesting the Force consciously all the time or whether he's just used the Dark Side to put himself back together in an unorthodox way. It's like asking whether the cloned Palpatine would have his spirit forcibly ejected from his body by an ysalamir or not.

 

WOTC has this to say about Sion's power in game terms:

Source. There's more there on how they suggest "superpowers" like Nihilus' and Sion's be treated.

 

Doesn't The New Rebellion imply that one cannot join with the Force as Obi-Wan did under the influence of ysalamiri? Or is Luke just mistaken? Or perhaps it only implies he would not be able to return in time to help Leia against Kueller...?

 

According to ROTS, Qui-Gon does not reside in the netherworld. He has returned from it.

 

Well, there ya go.

Well, yes. My point is that first his soul *goes* to the Netherworld and *then* he becomes a Force-ghost by coming *back*.

In other words, his soul isn't still in the corporeal universe, in the ysalamiri bubble, so it doesn't restrict whatever trick of the Whills you use to become a Force-ghost.

 

That settles how such a thing might be handled in a roleplaying situation, but it's still a gameplay mechanic, done for pragmatic reasons, so that doesn't really tell us anything about what would "really" happen. I think you illustrated the real question perfectly:

Both are plausible (I guess), but I haven't seen anything that clinches it one way or another.