What really caused the fall of the Jedis?

After TPM and AOTC, it's evident that the Jedis are losing their touch, but why? They really didn't need Anakin to aid in their destruction, because their skills were eroding; some other powerful enemy (or team) might possibly have done them in. Windu states that "Our ability to harness the Force has diminshed." Why? And why are Windu and Yoda so naive when considering Sith re-emergence? Such overconfidence is not only foolhardy, but contradictory to the Zen-like Jedi principles. Why can't the Master Jedi sense the Sith presence? Why didn't they insist that Anakin not be trained (by anyone) if they felt it wasn't such a good idea? I know that, had they prevailed in the situations stated above, we wouldn't have Episode 2 through 6, but, still, you have to wonder...

 

I disagree with the whole "Jedi are arrogant and out of touch" thing, that people like to to talk about from the PT.

For instance, they point to "arrogance" of the Jedi not believing the Sith were back. First, recall that they came around within a number of days. That's not being very stubborn, all things considered (for comparison, how long did the Catholic Church dispute Galileo's position before coming around?). Secondly, remember that the Sith had been extinct for a millenia. That's like if someone ran and told you they'd been attacked by dinosaurs, or a Spartan hoplites.

As to why there powers have diminshed, it's not any fault of theirs. The fact that Mace recognizes their dimiinishing powers means that it's happened within their lifetimes. And yet, neither of them has seemed ot have changed appreciably. So we have to assume that the Force itself is doing this deliberately, swingign favor towards the Dark Side.

So instead, I think the Jedi failed because they had there biggest asset taken away. That is, everything they did revolved around their ability to use the Force. As that ability diminshed, so did they. It was like, literally, taking a fish out of water.

 

I believe the reason for their fall was due to their own arrogance. They were so full of themselves as having been the main power in the galaxy for so long they began to lose touch with what gave them their power in the first place, the Force.

Take for example the condecending attitude shown to Qui Gon Jinn by the council in EP 1, more so look at these instances of that same arrogance in EP 2, when basically asked for help by the supreme chancelor (keep in mind all they know of Palp is that he is the head of the Republic in a time of need) they tell him for all intent and purpose "we cant help you" but the most glaring instance is when the council librarian tells Obi Wan "If a planet doesn't appear in the archives, it doesn't exist." sheer lunacy. The council as a whole was so sure of its infalability that it was primed for a fall. A fall that Palpatine was happy to give them...no the Jedi doomed themselves through the act of pride, pride in their achivements and power in the galaxy, wheter they admited it or not, and as we all know pride leads to the dark side.....

 

I think the Jedi fell because they underestimated how far reaching Sidious' plans were and how powerful he was. To me it doesn't seem like Yoda believes what Dooku told Obi-Wan in AOTC about a sith lord controlling the senate.

By the time of ROTJ Yoda may have learnt the lesson and warns Luke not underestimate the power of the emperor (before I used to believe that Yoda was talking about Anakin being overconfident, now after seeing and reading more and more about the PT era I think Yoda is talking about his own mistakes).

 

I think there is an arrogance to the Jedi - Yoda himself tells us that, "a flaw more and more common among Jedi - too sure of themselves, they are" - and also an inability to adapt. One of the themes of the PT is "adapt or die". The Jedi are unable to adapt to the changes that the rise of the Sith are bringing. They serve a corrupt, bloated Republic, when they really should not. They also do not sense, like Qui-Gon does, that Anakin IS the Chosen One, and if nurtured correctly, WILL bring balance. They're simply not able to adapt to what's happening in the galaxy - they become blinded, they're arrogant enough to believe that the Sith could not return without them knowing, and they believe their old code is more important than the will of the Force itself. Naturally, they fall.

Notice that in the OT, there are big differences. They don't train Luke and Leia from infancy - they wait for the Force to do its work, and for Luke to be brought to Obi-Wan at the right time. They let events take their course. They train Luke at the age of 19, much older than a normal Jedi, and they allow him to have deep and loving relationships with his friends and sister. They realise their mistakes - they don't stick to the code any more, they're flexible, and they follow the Force.

We also see little glimpses of Jedi arrogance, just in little things they do. Like Obi-Wan's "why do I get the feeling we've picked up another pathetic life form?" That's arrogant, it's digusting and it's sick. So much for the compassionate, humble Jedi. I can't imagine OT-Obi-Wan using a phrase like that. They change - they realise they made mistakes, they weren't perfect, and they were too complacant. This is proved itself in TPM - Obi-Wan casts Jar Jar aside as a "pathetic life form", but in the end, Qui-Gon is vindicated for his compassion in bringing Jar Jar along, as Jar Jar helps the Naboo and the Gungans together. The message is that compassion leads to symbiosis. Clearly, some of the Jedi don't understand this.

 

Excellent summation DarthyMark, although the changes in training ages between OT and PT had more to do with desperation rather than choice. Luke was the last chance (at least until Yoda reminded Ben of his twin) of producing another Jedi warrior. He was only accepted at Ben's insistance. Yoda felt he was "too old to begin the training." But there wasn't much choice, so...
I think the preferred training age is quite young, before candidates can develop bad habits, grow cynical, and in general lose their open minds.

 

I think the fall of the Jedi can be attributed to many things, some of which are the fault of the Jedi and some of which aren't. As for the Jedi not being able to use the Force as well, that can be attributed to the unbalance and distortion of the Force created by the overwhelming presence of the Dark side. ("The Dark side clouds everything" -Yoda) This puts the Jedi at a serious disadvantage and is why they can't see through all of Sidious' various plans and schemes. But the Order itself has grown to overconfident and arrogant over the years, from being virtually unopposed and unmatchable for 1,000 years. They also are not able to adapt very well to the rapidly changing times. The Order knows that the Republic has grown corrupt, but they continue to keep foolhardy faith in it. Of course a lot of this is easy for us to say since we know just how corrupt the Republic is, who's behind the Seperatists, etc.

 

Excellent summation DarthyMark, although the changes in training ages between OT and PT had more to do with desperation rather than choice. Luke was the last chance (at least until Yoda reminded Ben of his twin) of producing another Jedi warrior. He was only accepted at Ben's insistance. Yoda felt he was "too old to begin the training." But there wasn't much choice, so...
I think the preferred training age is quite young, before candidates can develop bad habits, grow cynical, and in general lose their open minds.

But the interesting thing is, when Obi-Wan and Yoda went into hiding, they could have both gone to Dagobah, taken the twins with them, and trained them from birth. But they don't do this - they let them grow as people, until they are mature and psychologically ready to be trained in the OT. Hopefully the reason for this will be explained in RotS. But they do seem less strict with the code - they're able to adapt to the situation. What Yoda says in ESB about "too old" sounds to me like just desperation, trying to find a reason not to train Luke, because he doesn't like Luke's personality. He also says "He is not ready" - it seems like they're waiting for Luke to be "ready" for his training, when his mentality is right for it. Obi-Wan thinks he is at this point, but Yoda's not so sure.

 

My theory is that the force also reflects the populace as a whole. Palpatine is stirring up the evil within the republic and this helps the dark side gain and the good to diminish and the result is that the Jedi are losing touch because the good side is faltering. I also think that the jedi have lost touch with the populace as a whole. example when obi takes the hand off of the bounty hunter and anakin just tells people to go back to their drinks. being isolated in the temple helps develop the jedi but i think it also helps them lose contact with humanity. this is what qua-gon was trying to teach obi in PM. In a side book just released "Dark Rendevous" Yoda says he is thinking about moving the training to another place because he thinks the Jedi are losing contact in the concrete jungle called Coruscant.

 

About 1000 years before TPM, a rift in the Jedi order began to form over what the plural form of the word "Jedi" actually was.

Originally, only a few disagreed with the rest. They were mocked and shunned by all the real smart ones who carried around dictionaries and stuff. Eventually they left Republic space to start a new order where grammar rules were not so strictly enforced, and swirlies were punishable by death.

Some time later, this new hidden order of Knights began to infiltrate the old Jedi Order. Thier goal was to erase all information in the Jedi Arcives, including all mentions of the plural form of the word Jedi.

A bumbling Jedi named Sifo-Diyas was tasked with this operation. The order came from a Jedi so traumatized by his swirlies that he wanted to, not only erase the archives, but destroy the whole Jedi Order.

While in the Archives, Sifo-Diyas became so enamored with a pretty Twi'lek padawan, that after only erasing all information pretaining to the planet Kamino, he got up to talk to her and promptly tripped over a Bear Clan safety-saber hitting his head on the corner of a table as he fell. This blow fractured his skull and killed him. Remember, he was bumbling. This only furthered the resolve of those anti-grammar Knights that wanted to destroy the order. They eventually accomplished this task some time later.

Wow! That was a long way to go for such a crappy payoff.

 

bump

 

I am reading Labyrinth of Evil right now, and in it Obi-Wan seems to be getting wary of the Jedi ways himself. He feels as though the padawans are "programmed" to be Jedi rather than learning.

In short, I think it was the Jedi's inability to be flexible and discuss new ideas.

 

The Jedi's fall was caused by their belief that they could spot evil anywhere. Yet, they couldn't spot it in their ranks or for that matter in the guise of the Supreme Chancellor.

 

Complacancy and arrogance, pure and simple. The Jedi fall because they do not see. They're the Pharisees who can't see their Deliverer right in front of their faces. I mean, what's up with placing the "chosen one" who has had absolutely no previous Jedi training as he should of (not to mention the vagueness of his future that the Council can see) as a padawan to a Jedi who only just passed the trials? Regardless of Obi-Wan's oath to Qui-Gon, Anakin should've been placed with the best of the best (Windu or Yoda, even) if there was that much question about his future.

 

I don't think Mace and Yoda would have been able to change the outcome of Anakin's actions. The whole Jedi Order is the problem, not just Obi's teaching abilities. It was their inabilty to change to the times and accept the change that needed to happen. They were to busy living in the past and looking to the future instead of focussing on the Problem at hand. To quote an older, much wiser Yoda "All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless." That right there sounds exactly how the Jedi in the PT arct. Yoda has learned from his mistakes.

 

I find that the fall of the jedi comes from there inability to adapt to the changes that occur within the galaxy. They stick to ancient princiapls with a foolish reverence and unfailabilty. They do not understand that as things cange they may also need to do so. For example they still believe that a jedi must be trained from birth. However one has always been raised under the shelter of the jedi would lack vital life expierieces. This is what helps luke to succeed in his task. Also the denial of basic human desires such as the desire to love which they deny Anakin. If they would have been more understanding he may never have betrayed the order. The jedi also are extremly self centered and do not take the time to consider what difficulties one may be having. No one ever stopped to try and help Anakin to cope with his personal problems. Even Obi-Wan who truly cared about Anakin was unable to aid Anakin as a freind should. In the end these traits caused the jedi to lose focus and be suplanted by the darkside.

 

I believe their fall was attributed to the lack of a spousal partner.

There is power in pairs, and that is why there is the dual combinations so present in Star Wars.

Two Jedi who trully walk the code of the Jedi can only be that much stronger, and I think if the jedi where in such harmony to be with one whom they loved, they would have been able to feel the oncoming darkside threat which loomed over them.

 

High insurance rates.

 

I think Yoda summed it all up in E2: "too sure of themselves they are".

He (Yoda) later in the film became a victim of his own opinion, when he did not believe that a Sith Lord was in control of the Senate.

 

Jedi. Like fish.

Not Jedis. Like fishes.

 

Jedi. Like fish.

Not Jedis. Like fishes.

Exactly... ugh that's annoying.

!snap

 

back to the topic of the fall of the jedi(s) surely the force had favoured them for a milennia and therefore to bring balance they had to fall, Anakin brought about this new balance so he did bring a kind of balance just not quite the equlibrium the jedi(s) expected

 

Hi this is my first post but I wanted to comment on something in the last post. It has always been my personal impression that Anakin is and always was the Chosen One in the sense that he does establish balance in the end. In other words, I understand it to mean that his FINAL act in killing the emperor is what he was "destined" to do in order to fulfill his destiny as the Chosen One. He was destined to fall and destined to conceive a child(ren) that would redeem him in the end so that he could accomplish what no one else could do. IMO. I know its a bit off topic but I was intrigued nonetheless.

 

Also, it's not just in the death of the Emperor that Anakin brings balance. The training Yoda gave Luke was very different from the kind Anakin got. Anakin was basically told not to do stuff quite strictly wheras Luke was more allowed to do things on his own.

Luke was allowed to love and form caring relationships and then learn to deal with loss; in the end making him a greater Jedi.

I think thats how Anakin brings balance too; by making it ok for Jedi to love and changing the old harsh discipline of the order. Though in the beginning, love causes Anakin to turn evil, its what saves him in the end.