ST What really happens to Palpatine during his battle with Rey?

OK full disclosure: I don't know exactly what happens to Palpatine at the end of his battle with Rey, but since I find being destroyed by your own force lighting an over simplification of beating such a devious and powerful character, here are a few of my best theories.
1) On a positive note, maybe the force ghosts that Rey got in touch with clouded Palpatine's judgement and once Palpatine started getting hit with his own force lighting he couldn't stop himself from using it. Or maybe the force ghosts held Palpatine in place so he couldn't avoid his own force lighting being directed back at him and Palpatine died.
Before I get into the negative theories, I would like to debunk a theory that I saw on the internet a little while ago that said the Palpatine tricked Rey with the Jedi voices and got Rey to kill him and then transferred his essence into Rey and he is hiding inside Rey. While I like the imagination of this theory, I going to say its not valid as it doesn't take into account one critical point in the movie and that is that after Palpatine is annihilated he may have entered Rey's body, but then Rey dies. In which case Palpatine should have died right there with her. Also I doubt Ben would have brought Rey back if he detected Palpatine's force presence in Rey's body, and if anyone should have been good a detecting Palpatine's force presence Ben Solo should be the best at it.
One of the sadder outcomes of the Sequel Trilogy is that our heroes after appearing victorious after Return of the Jedi, actually end up losing to the Emperor. Yes the Emperor gets his revenge, by manipulating Ben Solo, to turn to the dark side he kills Han Solo, Luke gives himself over to the force in shame for his failure in training Ben and Leia uses what is left of life energy to bring Ben Solo back to the light side. In The Rise of Skywalker the penultimate moment is right after he sucks the healing force out of Rey and Ben's force Dyad. He has got revenge on his enemies, he has restored his body and power, and all that stands in his way is a half dead Rey and half dead Ben Solo.
It's just that I have difficult time believing that someone as powerful and devious as Palpatine, would just allow himself to be destroyed by his own force lighting, when he could simply just stop using it, and try another means of attack. As he let Mace Windu force the lighting to disfigure himself for a reason, I think he let Rey kill him for a reason.
Let's remember that Palpatine is interested in only two things, ultimate power and immortality, so his death, his sacrifice must have left them with either one or both of these objectives. Let's also remember something Palpatine told Anakin in Episode III the Sith and the Jedi are a like in almost every way. So what happens just before Palpatine and Rey fight. Rey uses an ancient Jedi technique to reach out into another plane of existence and hear the dead Jedi of the past, Palpatine, while putting on an impressive display of force lighting attacking only the Resistance's fighters also notices it, and puts something together through the force. By allowing Rey to kill him with his own force lighting, Palpatine sacrifices himself to the Dark side (which often requires sacrifice) and transfers his essence directly into the dark side of the force. At best creating the first Sith Force Ghost, at worst, Palpatine's has transferred his essence directly into the dark side and literally become the dark side. He will now live on forever, with the whole power of the dark side at his disposal, any Sith Lord that comes after him, will be his to direct and he can advise and empower them to do anything he wants done. So I think it's possible that we will see Palpatine again as the perpetual voice of the dark side or possibly a Sith force ghost.
Based on the lack of thought that Disney gave the sequel trilogy, I doubt that they had anything this cool in mind when it came to the end of Palpatine, most likely he is probably just dead, but this theory makes me feel a little better about the outcome of the movie.

 

Good post.

 

Yeah very strange climax, where Rey does the thing Palpatine wanted of her like 5 minutes prior to him changing his mind.

I'd say for all intensive purposes that he's 'gone'.

And by that I mean become part of the force, just as all living being do when they die ("I am all the Sith / I am all the Jedi"), the difference being that his consciousness or whatever did not survive as he intended. I assume that's what he wanted...? To take over the body of Rey, like he previously intended with Vader (before he became mostly a robot), and later Luke and Kylo Ren (before deciding on Rey in the end)? And perhaps since Exegol was destroyed, he didn't have a clone body ready to hop into when he was killed this time?

Also I'd say there's a difference between the way Jedi and Sith 'survive' in the force after death. I think only Jedi's consciousness is retained, through their selflessness, and are able to linger, helping those still living. Whereas the only way to do that as a Sith is what Palpatine did, literally having your consciousness hijack another body. So, thematically, that's what Rey had over the Emperor in the end, despite their mirrored lines, despite them each channelling the light/dark side of the force, Rey had the support of others, the power of encouragement and faith, while the Emperor only had himself in the end.

 

He is killed by the power of not one lighsaber but two....

In all seriousness great effort on the post but I will never be able to take that ending seriously as why doesn't he just come back again....

 

He Dies....

 

Concerning Palps not being able to stop hitting himself with his own Force lightning, I always thought that's what killed him in RotJ. As he's falling down the shaft, the bolts are still blasting all through his hands and body. My personal interpretation was, he called on the dark side to create lightning, and when Vader grabbed him and he started shocking himself, he called on the dark side to protect him, but since he was already using the dark side for lightning, all the extra power he was trying to grab just channeled itself into more lightning, and it built up in a vicious circle/feedback loop that eventually reached critical and destroyed his body.

As for how he should have died in RoS, I thought deflecting lighting with two sabers instead of one was totally lame. I would have written it in a totally different direction: Rey had demonstrated her Force healing power repeatedly, so she should have shown mercy to her pitiful old grandfather and healed him. But healing him would cure him of the Sith alchemy that kept him undead; with that darkness purged from his body, it would return to its natural state and immediately die of old age, quietly and peacefully, with no unnatural paths to stealing more undeserved life.

 

He dies, until the next trilogy.

 

Ben would be the worst in detecting Palpatine. Kylo's dumba** still keeps communing with his Vader helmet even after Palpatine tells Kylo it's been him in Kylo's head the whole time. Kylo is an idiot.

 

Your idea is infinitely better than what we got and would have been very interesting thematically. No wonder it's not what they gave us.

 

Wait, Palpatine gets fried with lightning in the 3rd movie of each trilogy.

 

Good point!

 

I think the point was to not only show the level of idolization that Kylo has for his grandfather, but to show him coming to the realization that it has been Palps the entire time. It's silly and out of place because Kylo has already committed himself to follow Palps. It ends up coming off as I already joined, but now I wonder if he lied to get me to join him? It would be like Anakin after becoming Vader, stopping to reflect if what Palps had been telling him all the time was a lie.

 

If only Mace Windu had thought to bring his spare lightsaber so he could have two. Palpatine would have been the one getting shot out of the window instead.

 

Sorry but I don't agree with the most posts in this thread. I found it obvious that we saw a stand-in-fight between all sith and all jedi. Palpatine trusted in the dark side until the end but Rey (as a vessel for the jedi's power) was stronger. Light overcomes darkness. But not actively in hate but passively and deflective - jedi style. Simple Star Wars telling. By the way: this is also why Sidious did not transfer his spirit into Rey when he died.

 

Agreed. It's odd. Star Wars is fairly straight forward in it's story telling, yet some of us want some greater in depth approach. Rey basically did as you said, and the light side of The Force went Ark of the Covenant on Palpatine.

Good repels evil and evil destroys itself. Sith happens. That's "what really happens."

 

If that's what we were supposed to see it was poorly executed and since Sith aren't supposed to be able to live forever.... It just seems straight up weird and IMO the worst ending of any Star Wars trilogy or film. The execution of that final scene and the visual chosen for it were underwhelming. Also the idea of Rey suddenly being all of the Jedi and Palpatine being all of the Sith was so stupid and just about ruined The Emperor as a character for me. Having the Sith somehow now be the all of the Sith just seems to be antithesis to their philosophy. Why would Dooku after what happened to him want to help Palpatine or the Sith as an organization. Them fighting against one another and all of the manipulation make JJ's idea of the Sith organization seem outlandish based on what we know and from a bad saturday morning cartoon. I agree that it was supposed to be a fight between all of the Jedi and all of the Sith but it was so bad and makes no sense in context to the previous films and what we know about both organizations especially since force ghosts weren't a thing till Qui-Gon and then he taught Yoda and Obi - Wan so this all of concept was just......

 

The Palpatine-Rey fight was a big boring cartoon. The kind of confrontation that has been more successfully executed in cartoons before, visually and narratively. And compare it to the end confrontation of ROTJ, and it’s almost a joke, it’s so visually and emotionally uninvolving and flat. I can’t think of a less interesting or satisfying conclusion to the saga. JJ utterly botched it.

 

Who knows. Lots of things just happen in this film.

 

This is a good thread topic, because the answer should be more indepth (when Lucas was writing the movies). But the TROS ending is just your typical 'blockbuster' ending, where the hero kills the villain plain and simple (There is no real explanation that makes sense). The difference between TROS and ROTJ is night and day. The ROTJ is a culmination of 3 movies (back in 1983) or 6 movies (in 2005) where the ending is not your typical finale. Luke throws down his lightsaber (which stunned audiences in 1983 as we all thought he would kill the Emperor himself). His compassion for his father is what eventually kills the villain when Vader throws him down the shaft (Nobody saw that coming because we are trained for the TROS type ending, even back then). So you have this emotional ending in ROTJ that means something rather than a blockbuster ending in TROS that really doesn't mean anything.

I say this as a person who enjoys TROS, but I think the movie falls apart in the last act where you get the typical blockbuster ending, as SW was always much more than that. For all the Lucas haters, they never appreciated how different ROTJ ending is from most blockbusters.

 

Thanks. I love hearing anecdotes of first hand reactions to the OT. This is the first I’ve heard about reactions to the end of the Throne Room scene.

 

It's true, back in '83 nobody saw that coming. It was a mind-blowing jaw-dropping plot twist, almost up there with "I am your father." We were expecting violent righteous vengeance-styled justice, not compassion and redemption. It was a totally unexpected subversion of expectations.

 

It's a fools errand to try and make this much sense of bad writing.

Good overcame evil. The end.

 

Remember, Episode 6 was originally called 'Revenge of the Jedi' in 1982. I remember hearing that title that summer (I was 10 years old) and first thought, "Luke is going to be kicking some serious a**!!!! and get his revenge on Vader for cutting off his hand." When Luke ignited his lightsaber on the Emperor and Vader blocked it, that was expected. Then Luke going off on Vader in their fight was also expected, as you saw how much his power had grown between movies. When he threw down his lightsaber, everyone was shocked, "What is Luke doing????" As the Emperor was blasting away at Luke while Vader stood by, I was still in the mode of a Hollywood Blockbuster ending. Maybe Han and the Rebellion would come in and save the day? Maybe Lando would rock the Death Star and Luke would be able to escape? When Vader threw The Emperor down the shaft, it was right in front of our faces, but we never saw the Father/Son angle in that respect. Or atleast I never saw it coming. The PT only strengthened that scene because it gave it all context, and you appreciated it more now as the complete story was being told.

THAT is how you subvert expectations. Not in a cheap way, but in a way that has a deeper meaning that holds up even better 37 years later when I watch ROTJ.

 

Sith Lightening is a double edged sword, it can be as lethal to the receiver as it is the user.

 

That's a question of taste. I by myself like the simple but still not too straight in the face execution of it. Sure, they could have shown the old ghosts to make it really cartoonish. But for me it was just on point.

Well....actually they don't. I see it more as the concept of never satisfied “soul-eater“ with the permanent desire to rule and to get stronger. So, since the 'rule of two', usually the apprentice killed the master and with every time, the new lord got stronger. Sidious stopped this “chain“ in a certain way because he seemed to see himself as perfect and legitimated to rule forever. Only after some problems with clone technique and Vader's betrayal he had to seriously overthink some plans. But back to actual topic: for me it fits that the sith started with such a concept based on greed and desire for more power. They accept the natural consequences of master murderer. Just Sidious saw it a bit more egoistic (and picky).

Why?

Do we know what Dooku knew about the sith?

I agree that it was too quick and with too less explanation. I mean okay, Obi-Wan teased in ANH that after death, he would become “stronger than“ Vader “could ever imagine“, but we all were not expecting that the dead jedi remained “in the cosmic force“ and that force ghosts could not only sit on a tree (ROTJ) or cause a lightning (TLJ) but even catch a lightsaber (TROS) or lift a X-wing (TROS). As it seems, Rey but could use the knowledge of the ancient jedi texts to open a force-channel to receive their power. The force is with her! Everything is somehow connected - the living world and the netherworld. Symbiotic dualism, like in Episode I. By the way, I agree with you that the concept of force ghosts was never really clever. George Lucas opened a pandora box when he established this in the OT; fortunately this pandora box never caused any problem until the ST took this crazy peace and made something even more questionable but at least mighty out of it. Anyway, I don't judge anyone who finds the force ghost arc too messy. I personally found it messy but also satisfying to finally see what is possible for the dead jedi after live. “No one's ever really gone.“

Hmm....I wouldn't say flat. I would say they changed the ending from something western shakespear'esque to something which appears to be influenced by asian mythology. This time it is not the father who saved the son to fulfill a prophecy (like in a greek tragedy) but a spiritual stand-in-fight between good and evil (like in Dragon Ball). I guess we all don't have to like this idea but at least they did something new to bring the saga to an end. It wasn't the verrrry most creative ending but a certain depth was giving: not by the reflecting of the lightning itself but by the context of Rey (all the jedi) defeating Sidious (all the sith). The world seems to have self-healing abilities because the “dark heir to the throne“ (based on unnatural cloning/alchemy) decides against evil and with the galaxy on a knife's edge she overcomes the darkness balancing out her inner light and dark side.

For me it may look like this typical blockbuster ending but under the surface it has more. Because we have all the narrative past. Unnatural solutions for unnatural problems. Sidious cheated death, so it needed something unnatural and big to finally stop him. “Darkness rises and light to meet it.“ The bigger the evil, the bigger the hero. The ways of the force are unfathomable. Maybe it was all a plan of the force that Anakin was created (to kill Sidious for the first) and that the dead jedi fought through Rey (to kill Sidious completly). And I am not even talking about Ben's sacrifice wich is pure Star Wars in my opinion. He had multiple broken bones but he could have survived and become a hero of the new republic. But even as the last Skywalker he would have lost against Palpatine on an emotional level. Since he gave his live for Rey he proved that it was never about being a hero or to survive to be a Skywalker. It is about compassion, empathy and love. Palpatine's granddaughter didn't continue his dark legacy but will probably even found a new jedi academy. Palpatine's last “kill“ was no kill because Ben rescued the granddaughter of the man who manipulated his whole life and was responsible for the death of almost all family members. That's a true jedi. To trust in the good. To ignore legacys and just do the right thing. Against all odds. Like Han did when he talked to his son on the SKB. Like Luke did when he became what the galaxy needed on Crait. Like Ben did when he sacrificed the last Skywalker to let the last Palpatine alive. I am sure Rey will be grateful and do the right in her live. She is going to be a great jedi. She faced highs and lows, heroes and villains, light and darkness. It's the purest spirit of Star Wars. Believe and trust in the good, face fear and darkness, pass on what you have learned. The ST's purpose for me is legacy and future. The resistance had to fight the defeated evil which can stand up again at any time when the situation allows it. The makers decide to symbolize this with resurrected Palpatine himself - that wasn't the only possibiliy but a good one to stick to the red line of the saga. With the victims and experiences of the past in your heart, no one can stop you fighting new evil. That's the essence of the ST, including the big finale of Rey fighting against Palpatine.

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Only if you want to see it in a pessimistic, negative way. Yes, some points of the ST are messy, lacking of explanation etc! But that doesn't mean that your only option is to focus on the negative aspects. Also I often hear and read “The ST has nothing to tell“. I think it tells a lot, otherwise I must have dreamed all the content-based interpretations and analysis on forums, boards and videos.

But of course you have to be open for all this. When you are like “I never wanted a sequel trilogy. What can the mouse company tell me?“ or “I have only my old canon, nobody can replace that!“ or “The saga ended with Episode VI!“ then things are getting complicated. You have to change your view on things, you have to overthink your old idea of SW and it's characters, you have to allow SW to change, you have to let the time going by - if the project sequel-trilogy shall work on you. Otherwise it is mostly frustrating and you focus on the negative aspects. Maybe I am getting too strict right now. But I don't know...these are my thoughts.