Lit What should the Canon Dawn of the Jedi be like?

Just curious on how you guys want the origins of the Jedi to be explored in canon, the differences/similarities you want to see compared to its Legend's counterpart.

Really its not a question of if.....but when. Someday im sure we will have a film(s) about the dawn of the order.

I like the idea of going pre-Old Republic, before Man made hyperdrives, and even the strong focus on one solar system like what we got in the DoTJ comic series.

Though I would change the starting diversity of alien species mixed with a human population sharing one system. That's not trying something new, that's just taking the society of modern star wars and shoving it all into one system. Preferably there should be no Tho Yor picking up pilgrims and sticking them one one planet.

It actually is more different compared to other star wars with only a human dominated system. Where the first Jedi (no temple yet) or the *insert name* ancestors of the Jedi live, have yet to interact with intelligent alien life.

Pre-Alien Corsucant would be fascinating to see. A time where cities exist on it, but still so much green/nature as well. An era where Mankind has expanded there civilization to Coruscant's moons/space stations, and sending out sleeper ships into the void of space.

Various cultures have arisen on the planet and force based factions also have arisen. No lightsabers yet (and no forcesabers either), early force users also lack many abilities later learned by the Jedi.

But the Infinite Empire should be brought back as a major enemy of this distant era, and the Coruscant system changes forever when they attack humanity and steal some of them for slaves, perhaps some aliens (slaves) get marooned on Coruscant. Those that are kidnapped enter a larger world since the Rakata have hyperdrives and also various alien prisoners. Maybe Man's first use of a hyperdrive in canon, was a stolen Rakata one.

I want to see a version of Star Wars where we are seeing first contact between aliens and humans, cultural issues that arise, especially the language barrier. No droids existing yet that can easily interpret alien languages.

 

I read the topic title and was like... why should it be any different from DotJ? One Canon forever!

But then I began to wonder, what does your Dawn refer to... the Legends DotJ era or earlier than that Ach-To origins? Those are different indeed and with all new lore we have one might craft an entirely unique origin involving all elements.

As you propose there are many great ideas to make this era unique, be it "no droids" or green Coruscant biased against alien arrivals, etc. but one need to keep it Star Warsy and not just any other scifi where humanity meets alien cultures and space wizards. I wrote topics about the Ach-To origins and how it spread across the galaxy including DotJ etc. aplenty and can link you to them if you want to.

The question is, what is this origin? The first ever foundaton or a refoundation? Tython united Force cultures into a Jedi Order, Ach-To is the first discovery of the Force at all (pre Rakata), etc.

Is it inuniverse Newton having the Force awaken within him as he stops an apple (or a Tho Yor) from falling on to his head, thinking, "Oooh, a Force! What else can it do?" (Why do I hear Homer Simpson's Donut voice when writing this?)

Is it inuniverse Moses getting handed the Jedi Code commandments and knowledge about the Force by a god(ly being) like Bendu, Mortis Ones or a luciferan fallen Angel like Abeloth or else?

Is it a reclusive meditating Master reaching space nirvana and returning with unprecedented abilities of control, sense and alter?

And then what? Will he/she/it teach only family and kin, a select group of 12 students and followers? Be stuck on the homeplanet or planet of discovery or move around touring the galaxy with the newfound magic tricks? Is it even before classic spacetravel given hyperdrive re-engineering happened only post Rakata and other slower drives took generations to connect and colonise the galaxy previously? Unless there was a hypergate network, Force Astrogators evolving from said first users before being replaced by technology, or even farseeing, hearing and talking via the Force (Dyad style) as Forceusers appeared godlike to other planets as apparitions in the sky or on the ground remoteprojecting Luke on Crait style?

And at what point did it all go bad? First Darksiders... while stuck on first planet? during the travelling tour? When did it break into factions and students founding their own interpretations and schools long after the Prime Jedi?

More ideas and more details for the mentioned ones in my other topics I need to link to later!

But, essentially I think the natural evolution is deeply connected to the Force being used for Astrogation or other Travel methods and Communication with distant places (and maybe even times). The question I have not yet solved fully is this, why did the Force reveal itself to the first Forceuser at the exact moment and location it did? Why not earlier, why not others or elsewhere... heck why not simultaneous to several? What if there is no one Prime Jedi and Temple but several but only Ach-To got found and remembered by scripture. DotJ in Legends had several Force cultures being collected that either stem from the same Ach-To Prime Temple somehow or evolved separate simultaneous.

 

Let's keep One Canon nonsense to that one thread.

Anyway, I like how the High Republic now makes it feel like there's actually technological and social progress in the galaxy. I hope the new canon formation of the Jedi seems truly different. Not Jedi as warriors. Not one system feeling the same as the galaxy 25000 years in the future just minus the hyperdrive. The Jedi were supposed to be monks first, who then decided to get involved and be of service, and learned their knowledge of the Force could be used for power and not just insight.

 

My dream original Jedi would be a group of fun misfits nerds and weirdo's who all come together for a epic adventures.

Or for any Avatar the Last Airbender fans...Something along the line of Avatar Wan from Legend of Korra.

So essentially I hope Taikai Watitit does the Jedi Origin film since I think he has the good sensibility to make it feel truly Star Wars.

 

Going back to the novelisations might be of interest.

ANH:

"I wish I knew what Vader was after. Sometimes I have the feeling he is marking time for some incomprehensible abomination. Such is the destiny of one who masters the Force and is consumed by its dark side."
Luke's face twisted in confusion. "A force? That's the second time you've mentioned a "force"."
Kenobi nodded. "I forget sometimes in whose presence I babble. Let us say simply that the force is something a Jedi must deal with. While it has never been properly explained, scientists have theorized it is an energy field generated by living things. Early man suspected its existence, yet remained in ignorance of its potential for millennia.
"Only certain individuals could recognize the force for what it was. They were mercilessly labelled: charlatans, fakers, mystics - and worse. Even fewer could make use of it. As it was usually beyond their primitive controls, it frequently was too powerful for them. They were misunderstood by their fellows - and worse."
Kenobi made a wide, all-encompassing gesture with both arms. The force surrounds each and every one of us. Some men believe it directs our actions, and not the other way around. Knowledge of the force and how to manipulate it was what gave the Jedi his special power."
The arms came down and Kenobi stared at Luke until the youth began to fidget uncomfortably. When he spoke again it was in a tone so crisp and unaged that Luke jumped in spite of himself. "You must learn the ways of the force also, Luke - if you're to come with me to Alderaan."

And on the Falcon:

"No, Luke, your cuts should flow, not be so choppy," Kenobi instructed gently. "Remember, the force is omnipresent. It envelops you as much as it radiates from you. A Jedi warrior can actually feel the force as a physical thing."
"It is an energy field, then?" Luke enquired.
"It is an energy field and something more," Kenobi went on, almost mystically. "An aura that both controls and obeys. A nothingness that can accomplish miracles." he looked thoughtful for a moment.
"No-one, not even the Jedi scientists, were able to truly define the Force. Possibly no-one ever will. Sometimes there is as much magic as science in the explanations of the force. Yet what is a magician but a practicing theorist? Now, let's try again."

TPM:

The Jedi Knights were peacemakers; that was the nature of their order and the dictate of their creed. For thousands of years they had served the Republic, a constant source of stability and order in a changing universe. Founded as a theological and philosophical study group so far back that its origins were the stuff of myth, the Jedi had only gradually become aware of the presence of the Force. Years had been spent in its study, in contemplation of its meaning, in mastery of its power. Slowly the order had evolved, abandoning its practice of and belief in a life of isolated meditation in favor of a more outward-looking commitment to social responsibility. Understanding the Force sufficiently to master its power required more than private study. It required service to the greater community and implementation of a system of laws that would guarantee equal justice for all. That battle was not yet won. It probably never would be. But the Jedi Knights would not see it lost for lack of their trying.

 

Im sure there is going to be a connection to Ahch-to/first temple when we get canon DoTJ material, but I wonder how it will be done.

Were the humans (im sure at least some of the first Jedi were human), perhaps other races, forced onto the planet, or did they come by choice?

Here is another idea.

What if the inhabitants of Ahch-To (not the Lanai) were because of a crash landing. There was a war in the system, maybe a civil war amongst the Infinite Empire, forcing several ships to crash onto the planet, with members of various species forced to work together. Possibly there was a Infinite Empire outpost on the planet.

Perhaps back then there was some more landmass. Still most of the planet is covered by water, causing this society to become very water based.

Unlike Legends DoTJ, the tale of how the first Jedi came to be still happens where at least some of the people living on Ach-To remember their homeworlds. A way to see Green Coruscant, etc in flashbacks.

Some of the survivors were force sensitive, maybe even from pre-Jedi force factions. The Prime Jedi is the one who decided to follow a new path, and teaches this new way to others. Though the new Jedi are still very small in numbers, since the force sensitive population of Ach-To is small. Eventually the people of Ach-To find a way to gain access to Rakata hyperdrive tech, and use that to expand there influence. Of course the Jedi expand their influence/numbers even more when other alien races and humans are able to create their own hyperdrives.

 

No need to insult widespread One Canon love only because you dislike it. Especially as it proofs to be more and more what Disney is doing given the KOTOR reimagination and other upcoming projects.

Great quotes, thx for them! Those really help and put the emphasis on the slow evolution instead of a rushed storyline one can press into one movie. I really like that and it jives well with some ideas I had earlier.

Forget the Infinite Empire... any origin has to predate it as the first Force discovery was before any Rakata got the Force. They have Tython etc. for the reinventions of Force orders and Jedi and should keep Ach-To as the truly first temple.

 

They really aren't though...

 

Yeah.

And I’m not insulting, I’m calling it what it objectively is: a fan project, not founded in fact. And that it should stay to its thread. It’s like Star Wars QAnon, or the Flat Earth Society. Just keep the speculations on how to possibly reconcile it all to its thread. People can have fun with and getting creative. But it’s false to treat it like it’s actually a thing, or that there’s any widespread love for it.

 

I wouldn't go that far in comparing it to those things.

But I do think they separated the two canons for a reasons.

 

@Iron_lord Thank you for those quotes! I’d read the ANH bit before, but not the one for TPM, and that one’s probably closest to Lucas’s final ideas since he did solidify his thoughts of the Jedi’s origins when he worked on that movie, and we know he gave the book’s author direct info on Sith history, so it would make sense that he did the same for Jedi history.

While I loved what I read of Dawn of the Jedi, I definitely don’t think that’s what Lucas had in mind, and if the origin of the Jedi were ever explored by Disney, I’d hope they try to stick close to Lucas’s ideas. For something as essential as that, I think that faithfulness is essential. Otherwise it’s no different than any other fan’s ideas.

Having said that, I have mixed feelings about such a mythical and legendary era being depicted directly. To do so would take away its mystique. And perhaps to make a story out of it would be to interfere with its genuine character, which is not that of a dramatic story, but rather a long, slow journey of metaphysical discovery.

If they had to make a story so early on, a better idea might be to look at the time period when the Jedi Order went from being a more inactive and contemplative group to actually acting directly to preserve peace and life. Really, it could be the story of the first lightsabers, since I’m not sure the Jedi would have necessarily always had those. When the Jedi learned to listen closely enough to the Force to hear it say, essentially, “Don’t just spend your days trying to hear me. Actually listen! Go and help others.”

But the older origins would be hard to depict on film in detail because audiences clearly don’t like spending too much time on metaphysical concepts. And then you get negative fan reactions and so on. Really, Lucas seemed to be dying to tell stories that tied to the core metaphysical ideas of the Jedi, but fan and critical reactions made him reconsider his excitement. Unless new creators make something that caters to fans and critics, which would probably make for something lackluster, such a story would be “dangerous” territory.

 

@Sauron_18

I don't know...I think there is a fun meta thing you can do with In-Universe legends and what not.

While in universe people see some of the First Jedi as these epic hero's of myth and legend, we the audience will see them as goofballs weirdo's and nerds who fumbled their way to save the galaxy like the hero's of the OT and ST do.

I honestly would make something that is more in the spirit of true Star Wars....Fun, wild but with a lot of heart to it.

A good example would be Avatar Wan from Legend of Korra as a good point of inspiration.

Well let's hope Taikai is the one covering this era since I think he could do it easily....If that is the era he is doing mind you.

And in my mind Taikai is actually pretty close to George in sensebility as a director and creative.

Closer you could get would be Dave Filoni but I don't think he's ready for the big leagues yet.

 

The problem with movie depictions is they are too fast paced. No movie would be contempt to have the Jedi evolve slowly and be contempt to bend spoons for 300 years or actually only sense the Force for 5 millennia before moving on to control and alter slowly. Movies would press everything from beginning to end into one generation and rush things.

 

Perhaps its then better left for a "Dawn of the Jedi" series to refer to just the Prime Jedi, but focusing a lot on how he became a Jedi, what was he before? Maybe he was already part of a force based faction, prior to becoming a Jedi. If so, it would make for an interesting story into why he changed.

In a twist, what if the Prime Jedi was once a darksider (pre-Sith darksiders would be interesting to see in film)? Seeing the destruction/infighing of the darkside influenced him to try another path. He could have been a servant of the Infinite Empire in its last days (maybe a civil war). He could have played a role or was forced to crash land on Ahch-To. Giving justification to how humans and other races arrived on the planet before Man (and traditional alien) made hyperdrives.

The series ending on Ahch-To in which we get an epilogue scene (maybe flashforward) to the Prime Jedi and his new apprentices, in the spot where the first Temple will eventually be built (or is beginning to be created).

 

How can he be a member of a faction of forceusers or the infinite empire if he first discovered the Force? That kinda contradicts itself.

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PS Add on:

I mean we first need to clear, what is the Prime Jedi?

1) First one to discover the Force and teach it at all, nothing or nobody did before him or concurrent? Prime kinda indicates that. Then he is the "Skywalker" from Lucas early OT drafts and outlines. This is my take on the Prime as you have noticed.

2) Is he the first Jedi as in current order incarnation, then he can be post Tython, pre Tython (if there are Sith before the Sith LORDS then there can be Jedi before the Jeedai) or anything but not pre (1). In this case your scenarios may work and be interesting. Prime may refer to the first JEDI, not Forceuser or discovery, but the first temple has sound it more like the first discovery site, not just the first JEDI temple.

3) If talking any later post Tython incarnation of the Jedi it really could be any era and even Jedi reborn out of the Sith (instead of Sith splitting from the Jedi as EU had it) as you mentioned and Lucas had in PT plans as per Archives interviews. But this case would hardly require a Prime Temple or Ach-to and should use another place like Tython, Ruusan, green Mustafar, Ossus, even Corellia or Coruscant or else.


What I find odd in general is, originally Lucas and the EU had the Jedi evolve and the Sith split from them like a first sinfall ending paradise and bringing duality and endless cycles. Later with the PT he went for the "in the beginning there was darkness" trope and kinda had the Jedi evolve out of the Sith or paralell to them and end the Sith reign of the galaxy. This comes straight from greek and other mythologies of course with Chaos existing before the Light the Gods brought. But Overall, this premise in a worldly fashion as the Sith using the Force and Jedi evolving under their reign, while working storywise, is not a tale of the first Forceuse ever which has to predate Sith and Jedi both. So if anybody wants to depict the first, it should be more my take based on Lucas ideas. If it should be just the beginning of the modern Jedi though, I am glad to accept your and others interesting ideas.

Edit: Another add on PS:

The Light born out of Darkness trope also kinda jives with the Prequels Anakin is Force Jesus trappings. The first Jedi lived under Sith dominion as peaceful monks and were not minded so long staying passive and peaceful like Bendu monks. But their ideas challenged the Sith and draw followers, like Jesus and his apostels and that marked them as threat and enemies to some powerful Sith after they rose to be a problem beyond the local minor Sith. They became a symbol and a movement and not everyone understood the Force like the Prime Jedi and some followers sinned or kinda were tempted by violent uprising against the roman-esque Sith. Or another paralell, Moses leading the Jedi/Jews out of Egypt (which is a prime Sith visual influence of the EU!). If going the Moses route it'd be interesting to have a Moses character that is raised and close to the Sith like adopted into them and then defying them after learning his true origins and kin.
Another eastern paralell, the Shaolin Monks that also are a prime Jedi influence for Lucas and that got exterminated nearly by the chinese government in the past despite their peaceful minding their own business.

Again, "Star Wars and History" and "Star Wars Archives OT and PT version" are books that should help most with this story outlining you intend.

I think, canon may involve the Mortis episode backstory and the Mortis Ones before they became Ones/Gods into the Prime Jedi tale. They used a 2000 year old Jedi emergency beacon signal to call the Jedi to Mortis. So they might be from that timeframe or have had it from a past visitor from said timeframe (hello Darth Ruin?). Or if like Book of Sith indicates they are far older, from before the Rakata even, might The Father be the ascended Prime Jedi himself?

 

I prefer to think of the Prime Jedi to be what the title says.....just the first Jedi. Not the first force user.

Speaking of the first temple, im pretty sure it is supposed to be the First Jedi Temple. So the Jedi did not have any temples elsewhere (including Tython) before the creation of the Temple on Ahch-To.

Also Tython is not the birthplace of the Jedi Order in canon. But I have a theory that Tython was one of the earliest Jedi expansions beyond the Ahch-To Solar system.

 

Thx for clearing that up.

As for the exact expansion pathway from Ach-to outwards, I have my own ideas. Ach-to is pretty close to the Rakatan Archipelago and Lehon. So maybe Lehon, Baatu and other worlds got contacted before Tython? Also other important Unknown Regions worlds are around. But their expansion doesn't necessarily have to be linear or outwards as they could use the Force to project to remote places easily if that adept already early on.

When would you place Exegol timelinewise? Early connection to Ach-To before it fell to the dark, or unrelated and rather colonised by the Sith independently or in a later era? The TROS VD and Jedi texts hint about World between Worlds / Hyperspace / portal connections between Exegol, Ach-To and such worlds.

Also, Lothal's very ancient Jedi Temple connected to Mortis and the Force Priestess world, when do you place it in your ideas?

As for Tython, visually The Mandalorian had it pretty close to Ach-To with stone constructs and pretty arcane and less civilised mystic Forceuser times. So I think you are right they are not too far from each other timeline wise, at least when it comes to the sites we saw. Others unseen may give them places more modern or more ancient histories to consider as well in the future.

I'd like a general timeline if you could come up with one.

 

Well we only saw a small part of Tython, perhaps there are more advanced ancient Jedi structures on the planet.

I would place Exegol long after Ach-To and Tython. If the wookieepedia canon page for the Sith is correct, they were founded around 5,000BBY (estimation), and the Jedi Order, 25,000BBY. So for most of the Jedi Order's history, there were no Sith. I prefer to think of Exegol as one of the many worlds the Sith discovered themselves, though I also prefer Korriban (later called Moraband) to exist as a Sith world prior to Exegol. There could be a connection to Korriban falling into ruin, and Exegol, maybe Exegol became a "New Korriban" in a sense. Also "Moraband" becoming a name adopted by the pre-Banite Sith, to distinguish pre-fallen Korriban to its very ruined/abandoned state.

I don't know where to place Lothal's ancient jedi temple.

It's hard creating a timeline for the canon Pre/Old Republic eras with so little information to go off on in canon.

 

It says that the Sith have been around at least that long. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t have been around before that.

 

I think we got an origin for the Sith in the TPM novelization, @Iron_lord you master of book quotes could you find that part and quote it?

 

Yup:

The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago. They were a cult given over to the dark side of the Force, embracing fully the concept that power denied was power wasted. A rogue Jedi Knight had founded the Sith, a singular dissident in an order of harmonious followers, a rebel who understood from the beginning that the real power of the Force lay not in the light, but in the dark. Failing to gain approval for his beliefs from the Council, he had broken with the order, departing with his knowledge and his skills, swearing in secret that he would bring down those who had dismissed him.
He was alone at first, but others from the Jedi order who believed as he did and who had followed him in his study of the dark side soon came over. Others were recruited, and soon the ranks of the Sith swelled to more than fifty in number. Disdaining the concepts of cooperation and consensus, relying on the belief that acquisition of power in any form lends control, the Sith began to build their cult in opposition to the Jedi. Theirs was not an order created to serve; theirs was an order created to dominate.
Their war with the Jedi was vengeful and furious and ultimately doomed. The rogue Jedi who had founded the Sith order was its nominal leader, but his ambition excluded any sharing of power. His disciples began to conspire against him and each other almost from the beginning, so that the war they instigated was as much with each other as with the Jedi.
In the end, the Sith destroyed themselves. They destroyed their leader first, then each other. What few survived the initial bloodbath were quickly dispatched by watchful Jedi. In a matter of only weeks, all of them died.
All but one.
Darth Maul shifted impatiently. The younger Sith had not yet learned his Master's patience; that would come with time and training. It was patience that had saved the Sith order in the end. It was patience that would give them their victory now over the Jedi.
The Sith who had survived when all of his fellows had died had understood that. He had adopted patience as a virtue when the others had forsaken it. He had adopted cunning, stealth, and subterfuge as the foundation of his way- old Jedi virtues the others had disdained. He stood aside while the Sith tore at each other like kriks and were destroyed. When the carnage was complete, he went into hiding, biding his time, waiting for his chance.
When it was believed all of the Sith were destroyed, he emerged from his concealment. At first he worked alone, but he was growing old and he was the last of his kind. Eventually, he went out in search of an apprentice. Finding one, he trained him to be a Master in his turn, then to find his own apprentice, and so to carry on their work. But there would only be two at any one time. There would be no repetition of the mistakes of the old order, no struggle between Siths warring for power within the cult. Their common enemy was the Jedi, not each other. It was for their war with the Jedi they must save themselves.
The Sith who reinvented the order called himself Darth Bane.
A thousand years had passed since the Sith were believed destroyed, and the time they had waited for had come at last.

Tarkin novel makes it clear that a Sith shrine existed on Coruscant some 5000 years before the present - so the 2000 years ago date, at least, needs to be ignored.

 

The quotes make it sound much quicker, like weeks only instead of the 1000 years of Sith dominion and war the NSW had been in Legends. Then again the same Prequels said the Sith once ruled the galaxy, and those 50 or so Sith are unlikely to have achieved that within the few chaotic weeks. Or do we ignore the "weeks" bit of the quote? Or did they only dispatch the initial 50 within weeks after their leader and then other surviving apprentices kinda restarted the Sith over and over like a Hydra the Jedi couldn't get ahold of with cutting off heads?

Lucas other idea from Archives PT about the Jedi evolving out of the darkness under Sith rule may either be placed before that unrelated to the TPM quote backstory or if tied into it, would require the Jedi to fall to the Sith when they take the galaxy to rule it and new Jedi are born out of this Sith ruled galaxy in the coming centuries then.

With other nods like the 5000+ years old Sith Shrine below the Jedi Temple, I think Legends datings still holds true in most cases. There was a 2000 year old Jedi emergency signal in the Mortis episodes, too. How they are connected and the story plays out between though is open. Even if we only take major sources into account like Lucas, Prequels, Movies, novelisations and TV shows and not reference books or novels and comics that sadly are easily overwritten, we end up at the Legends model at its core date-wise.

If we take some quotes with a grain of salt and "came into being" does not mean first Sith but their rebirth as Legends had it, same for the Jedi Order being reborn multiple times, it becomes manageable. If taking all literal though, we run into contradictions. In the end despite their timeless ages and various incarnations, Jedi and Sith are like Yin and Yang, each born and reborn out of the middle of the other.


The way the TPM novel quote plays it, Darth Ruin's road till Darth Bane could be fit inside one spinoff movie starting with a Jedi Master collecting followers before splitting from the Jedi and ending with the Sith infighting and Jedi taking down the Sith Master and his apprentices but one survives... believed dead. Bane. Cue second movie about him finding an apprentice as Zannah. It kinda conflates the entire NSW era into a movie of less than a year's time, or few years at most, and from Ruin to Ruusan has a nice sound to it. Ruin and Kaan's Brotherhood merging. Hmm...

If only 50 Sith at the start, I wonder how many Jedi there were at that time? Or how long it took to reduce them enough to consider them gone and the order reborn under Sith dominion as monks. Did it take all the Jedi to take out the Sith Master and his apprentices killed the rest so it took a while the Jedi got reborn to take them out? That would fly in the face of the weeks quote though.

 

Presumably 4000 years+ lapse between "Sith founded" and "In the end, the Sith destroyed themselves" - with the leader who was destroyed along with his followers "in a matter of weeks" not being the founder, but a much later leader.

We know that the newcanon has stuck with Bane being 1000 years before TPM, at least, from various sources, including the Databank.

 

The movies themselves don’t even mention Darth Bane or that the Sith weren’t founded with the Rule of Two in effect, but prequel hate and denial that the EU ever did anything wrong made fans want to construct a narrative that “the prequels created a plot hole” by having Yoda know about the Rule of Two.

I doubt Lucas considered the 2000 years date important. He probably meant, “thousands of years”, so I’m willing to sacrifice the 2000 years date in the TPM novelization if Lucas didn’t want the Sith getting “re-founded” like in Legends and didn’t want an Old/New Sith Wars divide.

 

Been thinking of the Tor Valum character and that concept of a 7000 year old "Master of the Sith" and how that sorta makes the timeline a bit screwy.

BUT

I do wonder if the Tor Valum character was to make a Morgoth like character who was essentially the grand master of the Sith for all those thousands of years until the final Jedi/Sith war, and Bane is sorta the Sauron like figure who survived...But obviously isn't the grand evil afterwards since we need to get to Sidious naturally.