CT What was Darth Vader’s role going to be in the battle Endor if Luke hadn’t showed up?

What was Darth Vader’s role going to be in the battle Endor if Luke hadn’t showed up?

The Emperor ordered Vader off the Death Star to the command ship. Piett had orders from the Emperor for commanding the space battle.

Would Vader be in a TIE Fighter? He’s a great pilot. He’s the one pilot whose addition to the battle would make a huge difference. Could Lando make it to the Death Star core if Darth Vader was behind the Millennium Falcon this time?

Would Darth Vader be on the Forrest Moon of Endor to personally deal with the rebel commandos sent to take down the shield generator? Imagine Han, Leia and Chewbacca sneak in the back door bunker entrance and Darth Vader is waiting for them inside.

Did the Emperor know Luke was coming to Endor? And Vader’s role was always meant to be in a Sith showdown on the Darth Star? Was the Emperor’s spider-web of a trap always to catch Luke? Did the Emperor purposely not tell Vader so his vision of the future came true? Did he keep it a secret so Vader didn’t have time to make his own plans for Luke at Endor?

Did the Emperor not want Vader at Endor at all? Was he going to send him away before the battle started? Vader didn’t save the first Death Star.

What do you thinking Vader’s role was meant to be at the Battle of Endor if Luke hadn’t shown up?

 

Sheev foresaw that Luke would show up. That was never in any doubt. "Patience, my friend. In time, he will seek you out. And when he does, you must bring him before me."

 

Ok. So the Emperor knew Luke was going to show up at the second Death Star. His ‘in time’ line is actually referring to the not so distant future during the battle. Make sense.

What the Emperor doesn’t directly sense in the moment or foresee is Luke being on the shuttle with the other Rebels that goes to Endor.

 

This is true, at least on the surface. I've always felt that the whole "strange that I have not" conversation could've been Palpatine yanking Vader's chain, seeding doubt and making him emotionally unstable right before sending him to fetch his son. Why? Because Palpatine wants a younger, healthier new apprentice, and so is subtly trying to stack the deck against Vader. He doesn't ever believe that he'd turn (his ultimate mistake) but he wants him to be defeated.

Sorry, I know that doesn't answer your initial question... although yeah, I'd agree that the whole Death Star II trap isn't just for the Rebellion; it's specifically for Luke, too, and so Vader's role in it was always fixed from the beginning.

 

I do not agree.
To both Luke and Vader, Palpatine had been all about presenting himself as totally in control, superior, knowing what would happen and having foreseen everything.
What point and purpose is served by being seen as not being able to sense Luke? That he is not as in charge as he thinks, that there are things he does not know or sense?

If he did sense him, why lie about it? Distracting Vader? He wants whoever comes out in top of Vader and Luke. If Luke refuses to turn or is beaten by Vader, then he is weak and dies and Vader stays as Palpatine's pupil/slave.
If Luke wins and kills Vader in hate, then Luke has proven himself stronger and he is now the pupil/slave.
But why stack the deck against Vader? If Luke can not beat "normal" Vader and Palpatine feels the need to cheat and weaken Vader. Then he is trading a strong apprentice for a less strong one.

If Palpatine truly did not sense Luke, why admit it? He could just say "So you sensed him as well. Very good, now go to Endor and wait for him."

I am not one to throw out dialogue unless given an in-movie reason to.
So Palpatine not sensing Luke, I take as true unless I have reason to think otherwise.

What was his plan, assuming he did not sense Luke and had not foreseen him being on the rebel mission to blow up the shield generator?
Hard to say.
Palpatine has baited a trap and expects the rebels to show and he was not surprised that a rebel force had landed on Endor. That makes sense, if the rebels do attack, they must take out the shield first.
So if Luke was not part of that, would he part of the attack?
If on an X-wing, how could he seek Vader out? If on a ship, same issue.

So would Luke not be a part of the attack? So the rebels would get destroyed but Luke would not be there.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I agree. My feeling is Palpatine is genuinely surprised to learn Luke is already on Endor. He should be able to see it.

I think Yoda after becoming one with the Force may be clouding Palpatine’s ability to use the Force on specific info without the Emperor being aware of it in order to give Luke a chance.

 

This is the big question. Did Palpatine expect Luke to show up before the battle specifically to seek out Vader - ala Rey in The Last Jedi with Kylo Ren. ‘His compassion for you will be his undoing.’ That’s almost what happened with Rey when Kylo didn’t turn from the Dark Side.


Did the Emperor put Vader on a Star Destroyer to make it a bit easier for Luke getting to him. It does make it so Vader and Luke become aware of one another.

But Luke doesn’t go to Endor intending to confront Vader - let alone meet him the moment he arrives.

If Luke went there seeking Vader - Luke is a Jedi. If anyone can sneak on to a shielded Death Star it’s a Jedi. And before the battle no doubt supply ships are still going to the Death Star. Luke aspart of the battle piloting an X-Wing getting on the Death Star to confront Vader seems almost impossible.

Important to note Luke is already on the Death Star with the Emperor before the Battle of Endor starts. So Luke does arrive early, only it’s not with the intention of confronting Darth Vader at that time.

Luke isn’t ready to take action. He is still struggling with what to do - feeling he can save his father and Yoda and Obi-Wan telling Luke he needs to destroy Vader.

Perhaps the Emperor can see the ends but not the means at times when using the Force.

 

I figured Palpatine's foresight regarding Luke was more generally around him seeking out Darth Vader, and Vader bringing Luke to him.

Palpatine also mentions that he "allowed the alliance to learn the location of the shield generator," which implies that he knew the Bothan spies were there and obtained the information. What I think happened at the beginning, is that Palpatine somehow learned that the Bothan spies learned all that info, and Palpatine-seeing an opportunity to lure the Rebellion into a trap-purposely allowed them to bring that info to the Rebels. Simple logic could tell him that the Rebels would plan to attack the generator, and also attack the fleet (based on what info the Bothans had obtained). So he laid the trap to prepare for those occurrences (the troops on Endor, the fleet hidden behind Endor, etc.)

With regards to him not realizing Luke arriving on Endor in the shuttle, I think that was simply a moment that slipped past Palpatine, and was perhaps unexpected since he wasn't focusing on Luke's whereabouts at the moment. Vader however, was very focused on his son during that time, and was probably very well aware where Luke was-of course HE wouldn't miss him. I think that moment is more to emphasize Vader's mindset vs. Palpatines; Vader is distracted and focused on his son, and Palpatine is simply coordinating the trap and focusing on everything else being in place. But Palpatine is the most arrogant being in the galaxy, so of course if Vader told him he sensed something that he didn't himself, that would be his natural reaction like a "if YOU felt it, then I DEFINITELY should have too?! You MUST be mistaken!?" kinda thing.

So I think ultimately him not noticing Luke's presence like Vader did is more of a minor passing detail, meant to emphasize Vader's distraction and internal conflict...you know, for the audience.

 

^ I also think that Palpatine's flawed foresight regarding Luke was a foreshadowing of his blindness and lack of understanding when it comes to what people will do. His foresight obviously failed him disastrously when it came to Anakin's final moments.

 

That Palpatine put Vader on the SSD to make it easier for Luke to get to him.
That has the issue that Luke has no idea that Vader is there.
It is not like the Force has a GPS function and Luke could just sense exactly where Vader is from across the galaxy. Sense close by yes, across lightyears, unlikely.

Speculating a bit here but say that Palpatine had a vision where he saw a short and distorted version of Luke and Vader on Endor. So he saw Luke come to Vader, he saw Luke plead with Vader and ask him to come with him. He could not say exactly where or when this happened but he was sure that it would come to pass. At most he saw some greenery and figured that it wasn't on the DS2 or the SSD.
So he came to the DS2 knowing this and kept Vader around.
He set a trap for the rebels so he knew that if they would try something, a strike team would come first.
He knew about them landing on Endor but he did not sense Luke. So his plan is working but Luke is not here, so no need to act. Then Vader comes and says he sensed Luke and now Palpatine figures that the vision he had took place on Endor and orders Vader down there.

An alternate version of this is that Palpatine knew enough of Endor to suspect that what he saw in his vision took place there but he was not sure. So keep Vader around but do not order him down to Endor in case he is wrong. Then the rebel team lands but Palpatine does not sense Luke so he figures that he was mistaken and the vision did not take place on Endor. But when Vader comes, he knows that it was really Endor and orders Vader down there. He might be momentarily puzzled why he did not sense Luke, esp since he figured that Luke would come. But his vision was correct so he figures he has everything udner control and moves on.

Mostly agree, I think that it is possible that Palpatine did more than just allow the rebel spies to get away.
That he planted specific information. Like the lie that the DS 2 was not yet operational. Where the DS 2 was, the location of the shield generator and so on.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I think the Emperor not sensing Luke is genuine, and I kinda like that it's a mystery. Whether it's Luke's presence, or Luke and Vader's unique connection, it's simply capable of not being detected by Palpatine. It just adds to why he's determined to either turn or eliminate Luke. If he can't see it or control it, he wants it gone.

Also, that he's admitting that he doesn't feel Luke, but Vader does, feels like he's just subtly goading Vader, questioning if he's too emotionally compromised. He knows with Vader's ego that'll rub him the wrong way.

 

He was going to be the Doofus. Sid had him written off.

 

Going by the OP question, if the Rebels had seen through the bait and not attacked then it's unlikely Luke would've come to the DS.

So what would Vader do?

It's likely he'd wait with Palps until they realised the Rebels weren't fooled, then after Palps left I think Vader would continue to oversee the completion of the DS. That was why he was sent in the first place.

 

Vader was the commander of Death Squadron, who were out in full force in the space Battle of Endor. Even before we consider Palpatine's motivation in terms of converting Luke, Vader's role on the Executor would have been to oversee Piett and the rest of that fleet, not simply to be idling about. Palpatine had immense confidence that the Rebels would take the bait and attack DS2, so he would have needed a commander in the field.

 

Exactly. Even if the Rebels didn't come, Vader would still be on Endor working to subjugate the Ewoks.

 

Would Jerjerrod have been choked to death Vader had the Rebels not attacked?

 

I read this as "Would Jerjerrod have choked Vader to death had the Rebels not attacked?" and was momentarily very confused.

 

It's been a long day...

Had the Rebels not attacked and Vader had continued to "motivate" the work to complete the Death Star would Vader have eventually choked Jerjerrod?

Is it inevitable as night follows day?

 

I doubt he could considering Vader’s throat would be inside the collar that supported the mask and helmet. He’d be squeezing metal. Then he’d be choked to death for his impunity.

Would Jerjerrod have been choked? No, not unless he failed to complete the Death Star on schedule. The Rebels being there or not was not something he needed to deal with, far as I know.

 

I don't think the movie or tie-in materials make it too clear.
Vader could either stay in the Endor system to protect the Death Star and win a battle if needed, or he could hunt down Luke if Luke didn't take the bait.
Considering Luke blew up a Death Star before, I have a feeling Vader would be sent after Luke.

 

Except problems, the Emperor being there had become known to the rebels through their spies. No such thing for Vader as Luke did not expect Vader to be there.
Also, the Force is not a GPS where a Force user can pin-point where another Force user is on a galactic scale. So how did Palpatine think that Luke would find out that Vader was there?
For that matter, how did Palpatine think Luke would be able to get on the SSD and get to Vader?
Lastly, as I have said, if Vader was bait for Luke then Palpatine expected Luke to show and yet he was surprised to learn that Luke had landed on Endor.
He expected a rebel team yes but apparently not Luke.
It is possible he did expect Luke but when he did not sense him, he figured he was wrong on that.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Vader went there to survey the construction. Then when he was told the Rebels were coming, and he sensed Luke, he told Palpatine. That’s how I always saw it.

 

If, for some reason Luke wasn't there, Vader probably would have been sent to Sullust and it would have been a 1-2 knockout for the Rebellion.

 

Vader went there to speed up construction and get them back on schedule. Likely so that the SL was operational when the emperor arrives. He did want to leave and look for Luke but was ordered to stay.
The rebels came and he sensed Luke yes but was that part of Palpatine's plan?

If the rebels had left Sullust and gone to attack the DS 2 and been wiped out, why would Luke still be there?
And what if Luke was part of the rebel attack, like in an X-wing. How exactly did Palpatine think that Luke would be able to get to Vader and would Luke not just get killed in the battle?

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor