PT What were Palpatine's backup plans?

Here is one thing I don't get about the prequels: A lot of Palpatine's gambit seemed to have hedged on things going exactly as he wanted.

Ep I:
What happens if the Jedi manage to force the Trade Federation to accept a settlement?
What happens if the treaty DOES get signed, and their invasion is legal? How can he dethrone Valorum?
What happens if Maul doesn't get seemingly killed? Does he still groom Dooku or does Maul become his Separatist leader?

Ep 2:
What happens if Padme DOES get killed by Jango?
What happens if Padme is there to vote against the military creation act?
What happens if Obi Wan is willing to listen to the truth Dooku tells him and Dooku further betrays Palpatine?

Ep 3:
How does Palpatine spin it if Anakin walks in two minutes earlier and instead of seeing a defeated elderly man begging for mercy, instead sees a Lord of the Sith in combat with a fellow Jedi?
What happens if the Jedi do grant Anakin the rank of Master, or send him with Kenobi to get Grievous?

I just feel like in each film he took big big risks, which hinged on everything going according to plan.

 

Palpatine was very good at reading the future. They were still risks to be sure, but minimized.

 

In the Novel of the movie Dooku described as Sidious being that guy that peers into every window and tests every lock, beyond his ability to read the currents of the Force and the end game of his moves, he was a chess player, his end game was riddled with taking risks like an end game and making sacrifices along the way.

The settlement was irrelevant, even if the Jedi had forced the settlement, he could now use that to come out with the "Look at the lawlessness that the corruption in the senate and the incompetence of government had caused.

Remember the "Baseless rumors of corruption? He would have probably manufactured more damning examples of corruption, plus Valorum was in his last term anyways, he was going one way or another.

I believe that Maul was going to eventually die no matter what. Palpatine needed that war and having a freakish obvious dark side user commanding the separatists could have been used to draw the Jedi into the war, Maul's usefulness was pretty much at the end, his job was to be an assassin not a political figure, and Dooku was the perfect choice for that, and remember that Dooku was disenfranchised by the Jedi long before he turned.

If Padme does die, perfect, even though Anakin and Padme hadn't fallen in love yet, Anakin still had strong feelings for her, so he would have been even more disenfranchised earlier, and Palpatine would have already had a way to blame the Jedi and especially Dooku.

If Padme voted against the Military creation act? Then the war would have proceeded and the Republic would have taken a even greater beating early on. Padme would be painted as a prime reason why there needed to be more central powers, and the urgency of creating a military would have created a faster "reform" of the govenrment towards marshal law.

Obi Wan listening to Dooku and the Jedi saying that a evil force user was running the CIS would have really played into Palpatine's hands in selling that the Jedi couldn't be trusted to the public and the members of the government, it would have enabled him to further pull the Jedi under his influence as they would have been obsessed with tracking down Dooku. Also if lets say Dooku did say that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, Palpatine would have framed it as a plot by the Jedi to subvert democracy and stage a Coup. Unless there was video evidence of Palpatine laughing and saying to Dooku "Hey Dooku, your Sith Master, namely me Sheev Palpatine commands you too". Remember that he needed the Jedi to attack him in his office to record his message of the Jedi are taking over.

On the first part, it was irrelevant, the weakened Palpatine force Anakin to make a decision, but he was already on the path to wanting more power for himself to save his wife, he was also convinced that the Jedi Order needed to be reformed. Lets say Palpatine wiped the floor with Mace, Anakin comes in, Palpatine puts his hands up surrenders to Anakin and basically says, "The Jedi power is limited by their weakness, who better to help you get the power to save your wife? Me or that Rorschach painting on the sidewalk 1000 floors down?. If Anakin didn't listen and insisted on arresting Palpatine, the future Emperor knew that the Jedi would push for his execution during the trial in front of courts that he controlled, but there's no way that Anakin would allow that execution to take place because Palpatine had pushed that he had the power of life over death, so at some point Anakin would have taken action to save Palpatine. He probably would be even more resentful and distrustful of the Jedi by that time anyways. Anakin's question of converting to right thinking wasn't a matter of if but of when.

The second part wouldn't have mattered, Palpatine would have continued to push the Jedi are corrupt and don't trust you and will limit your power narrative. And the first time that Anakin as a master was suppressed Palpatine would have told him that he was a master of nothing, but there are other paths to power.

 

The key to Sidious's character is that everything goes according to his design so long as everyone gives in to their worst natures. If people make a collective choice to be selfless and compassionate rather than fearful and greedy, his plot won't work. Actions that occur as a result of love are the blind spot in his clairvoyance, as we see play out in Return of the Jedi. He can improvise, but he doesn't have a back-up plan for everything. Certain things need to happen, and if they don't, he can be thwarted.

The settlement isn't irrelevant. If the Jedi force a settlement by getting the Trade Federation to compromise, the conflict ceases to exist. Without conflict, Sidious has no tool with which to inspire fear, and he loses control.

This is an essential point. If Nute Gunray hadn't been so greedy, Sidious wouldn't have been able to manipulate him, and Gunray wouldn't have been led down the dark path to his downfall. The theme is paralleled in Qui-Gon's manipulation of Watto by appealing to his greed, which causes Watto to lose everything. It is of course also paralleled in Sidous's manipulation of Anakin by appealing to his greedy attachments.

While Maul was perhaps destined to die, his usefulness to Sidious was far from being at an end. Maul's death was a great blow to Sidious and a source of much frustration. Sidious craves young apprentices above all else, and turning to the septuagenarian Dooku after the loss of Maul was an act born of necessity. Dooku had long been an agent of Sidious's even while Maul was still alive. He was likely always intended to be the face of the Confederacy, but his usefulness to Sidious would have ended with the rise of the Empire, while Maul remained at Sidious's right hand as his dark enforcer.

The youthful Anakin Skywalker was always Sidious's preferred replacement for Maul, being full of anger and untapped potential just as Maul was, but unfortunately he wasn't ready.

If Padme successfully persuaded enough senators to vote against the Military Creation Act (which is something Sidious clearly fears is possible, hence her removal from the situation), then Sidious would have been undone. Again, the creation of an Army of the Republic is an act born of fear, which is why it fits so well into Sidious's plotting. If a different choice had been made, one rooted in principle rather than fearfulness, then Sidious wouldn't have been able to take over. This is very important thematically. Sidious isn't omnipotent or undefeatable. He's only invincible so long as he is allowed to feed on the negative emotions of the populace.

Sidious can't simply declare a state of martial law. He has to have the support of the people behind him. Any attempt to usurp the Republic through force or conquest would have been doomed to failure. This is why the Separatists could never win in his plan. A Republic conquered by the Separatists and transformed into an Empire would never work. A majority of Republicans would forcefully resist it, as would the political idealists at the heart of the Separatist movement. No one would accept it, and with all the people united against him in common cause, Sidious will lose. Sidious knows this. That's why he has to take over the Republic from within using the threat of the Separatists as a pretext. It's the only way his rule can look legitimate. Outright conquest is a no-go, as Sidious has learned from the example of past generations of Sith who all failed in their ambitions and forced the order into the shadows for a millennium. That's why a protracted civil war is an absolute necessity of his plan. If Padme successfully lobbies against the creation of an army, then it is implied that the political idealists over on the Separatist side will see it as a show of good faith on the part of the Republic, in which case the corporate cabal which has co-opted the movement loses its basis for the movement's alliance of necessity with it. Everything falls apart for Sidious as the lines of communication and negotiation are re-opened. You can disagree with this analysis for all kinds of cynical reasons, but it is clearly the intent of the story that people's better natures will win out if they are allowed to. There is always a choice. That's an important message of the films.

I agree here, and would actually point out to the OP that Obi-Wan and the Jedi did listen to Dooku and that was exactly the point. Because of Dooku's revelations the Jedi became paranoid and distrusting of the Senate and the democratic process in general, leading to the events we witness in Revenge of the Sith which precipitate their downfall.

 

The beauty of Sidious is that even though he had the ability to see ahead with the force, is he had contingencies within contingencies

I don't believe that this would happen, Palpatine's strength was just as much political as it was within the Force. Even when you watched TCW's, how many senators and organizations did he have his fingers in. The reason why he lost in ROTJ was the same reason why the Jedi lost in the OT, he grew complacent. There's no doubt that Palpatine in my mind would have continued to spread dissent and corruption and even if his plans didn't happen as quickly they would have eventually lead to the Empire.

The fact that the blockade had already happened and as in the opening crawl that there was endless debates in the Senate and that the Chanceller secretly dispatched the Jedi meant that Sidious had already won here. Even if the Jedi had forced a settlement, Palpatine could point to the inertia of the Senate, the obvious corruption and the Chanceller going beyond his mandate by secretly sending in the Jedi. Palpatine really didn't need the invasion except to show greater suffering and the Treaty that the Federation wanted the Naboo to sign was really irrelevant.

The only difference between a settlement by the Jedi and the invasion was the emphasis and speed that Palpatine could move and gain support for his bid for Supreme Chancellor. He would have gotten there merely if the Trade Federation had blockaded the world and exposed the Senate and Valorium as ineffective and corrupt.

Maul was never destined to be a Sith, he was a useful tool for Palpatine, and him dying didn't slow down his plans. In fact his death was beneficial as it forced the Jedi into believing that the Sith had returned and Maul looked and acted the part. I don't think that Sidious craves young apprentices at all, he views apprentices as a useful tool, the age is irrelevant, he wanted Anakin not for his youth but for his power. The death of Maul really didn't side track his plans and actually helped him put a more urbane and beleivable enemy of the republic in Dooku that the Jedi couldn't believe was anything more then a political agitator until it was too late. Maul was really not important to Sidious' plan outside of thinning out the Jedi if possible.

Remember when the vote came in for the Military Creation act that the CIS already had a full function military. If Padme would have defeated the act, Dooku and Palpatine would have ripped through the weak Republic and probably bombed a few planets out existance. The intent of the CIS was never to win but create a reason to give Palpatine more power and a pre built military. If Padme had gathered enough votes to vote down the Military and the CIS took advantage of that, the people would have turned against the Senate and Padme and the other Senator's would have demanded the creation of a military, and given Palpatine all the power he needed. He wouldn't have been undone, he would have changed the situation. Remember that the Political idealists on the seperatist side were pretty well just wall paper and irrelevant. The CIS was created by the Sith to sow chaos and uncertainty.

Basically Sidious had won as soon as the blockade moved into orbit, we're merely talking about the speed that his plans and the speed of the endgame.

Palpatine was too canney as a politician and the darkside powers while a massive help weren't the reason why the Jedi lost. The evolution of the Sith to the boogey man in the closet pulling the strings instead of some yellow eyed light sabre swinging monsters. Instead they relied on Guile and pretty much created and executed the grand plan over thousands of years. Palpatine was what was needed for the end game because of his political abilities, and his chess playing skills.

The Jedi were never going to win, the Repbulic was never going to not fall, it was more a question of when the Jedi lost and when the Empire rose.

Honestly the best solution for the Jedi when things started to go to crap would have been to step away and waited for inevitable rise of the Dark Side and shown the same type of guile as the Sith

 

The ROTS book implies that Palpatine was giving Anakin those dreams. So he was manipulating him from the start. And he may have been the one to create the midiclorians in Shmi. This was a man with a plan.

 

I don't have an answer for every one of the questions, but since Palpatine was literally controlling both sides of the war, I'm pretty sure he would have been able to get out of whatever situation he got into.

 

But to me, if the good guys are doomed to loose, that their defeat is totally inevitable and there is ZERO they can do about it.
That makes the story less interesting and less engaging.
If there is no hope for the good guys to pull of a win and they will loose no matter what.
Then it is just a curb-stomp and it makes it less engaging. I have no reason to care about the good guys because they will loose regardless. No matter how smart they are or how hard they try, they will loose.
So their struggle is pointless, they could just lay down and die.

And it also lessens the bad guy. If he has such a massive advantage that he will win no matter how clever his opponents are, then his victory is empty. He could never loose, the field was so stacked in his favor.

Again to me, I saw him as someone that can think on his feet, that can turn a setback to his advantage.
That he has plans but is flexible enough to alter those plans if events happens in ways he did not intend.

Ex, TPM and Padme coming to Coruscant. I know several here that argue that Palpatine PLANNED for that happen. That his order to the TF to kill the Jedi was made, knowing they would fail and that they would save Padme. Same with his order to Maul, that was also made with the intent to never work.
I don't agree, I think his original plan had did not include Padme coming to Coruscant but when she did, then he turned a setback to his advantage.

See above and making Palpatine so powerful and having so exact knowledge of what is happening and what will happen makes his victory less impressive.
He wins because he has such a massive advantage that he could only loose by being stupid.

And while I agree that he did become arrogant and overconfident later, take his plan in RotS and RotJ.
In RotJ, he is making a new DS and lets the rebels know where it is, that it is not yet ready and that he will be there. So he sets a trap and tilts the field in his favor.
The fleet is there, the shield is very well guarded and the DS is operational.
If the rebels come, he can crush them. If they don't show, then the DS2 gets completed and he wins anyway, it will just take longer.

In RotS, he set up this massive battle for really only one reason, to get Anakin and Dooku to fight.
That's it, nothing more.
So what would happen if Anakin gets blown up while trying to get to the ship?
What will happen if he gets delayed getting back?
What happens if the ship he is one gets shot at and damaged? Which did happen.
What happens if Jedi from Coruscant try a rescue?
In all, the RotS plan has a lot more random variables and involves far more risk to himself and makes far less sense.
But it works because the plot needs it to work.

Not sure about this.
The senate was not getting anywhere and so the Chancellor acted on his own and showed some initiative.
If it had worked, that the TF gave up and the blockade was resolved. Yes Valorum might get some enemies in the senate, like those that are bought by the TF. But to others, he could be seen as quite the hero.
He cut through all the red-tape and BS of the Senate and acted and brought an end to a crisis.
I can see him getting fairly popular in some circles from that.
He acts instead of talks. He is a man of action and one that sides with the people against the corporations.

And sure, Palpatine might use him sending Jedi against him, not that he does in the film, and maybe get rid of him that way.
But how would that look?
The chancellor that acted and sided with the small planet Naboo against the bullies of the TF has been smeared and kicked out. And now the corporate lapdog Palpatine has been elected in his place.
I think this could make Palpatine look less than good.

I don't think he planned for Valorum to send the Jedi and I think he really wanted them dead.
They were interfering with his plans.

But again, if Valorum acts and brings an end to this mess, how does that show he is ineffective?
And if the TF are known as the ones who has bought senators and made the senate corrupt. If Valorum stands up to them and defeats them, how does that make him look corrupt?

Why is Maul making hismelf known to the Jedi a benefit to Palpatine?
He and other siths before him has benefited quite a lot from the Jedi being unaware of their existence.
They can operate fairly freely as the Jedi don't know they are around.
When Maul reveals himself and fails to kill the two Jedi, the sith are now exposed.
The jedi now know that they are there and they would now be on the lookout for them.

If the Jedi had found out that Palpatine was a Sith in the middle of TPM, that I think would have ruined his plans.
He had no clone army, the republic had no army at all and he was not yet chancellor.
Could he beat ALL the Jedi in the Order?
If he could, that really makes him way too overpowered.

If Maul had been captured and talked, that could be bad for Palpatine.

That's assuming there would be much of a senate/republic left.

The seps plan seemed to be to make one big attack, crush the Jedi and then hold a gun to the senat's head and force them to agree to their demands.
After that, the senate and the republic are beaten.

Sure Palpatine could hold the seps back and just make some noise or saber rattling.

Going back to original plan, I think he wanted the army bill to pass and then the Kamino would contact the senate and the clone army would be "found". Which would do two things, give him an army and also make the jedi seen shady as it was apparently ordered by one of them, without senate approval.
Then he makes Dooku issue some demand or rattle his saber and the war starts.

Padme's opposition interfered with that and thus he could kill two bird with one stone by killing her, as that would also get the TF on board.
When the first two attempts failed, he again was quick on his feet and sent Padme off Coruscant.

And again I know that some argue that Palpatine had planned for each and every thing.
That the first bomb would fail, that the second would fail as well and Jango was told to kill Zam with teh dart in view of the Jedi. That Obi-Wan knew a guy who could ID the dart, that Jang would escape but be followed to Geonosis and thus Obi-Wan would overhear Dooku and report to the senate.
Etc.
I don't agree as this plan is ridiculously convoluted and would only occur to Palpatine if he had read the script.

[/QUOTE]

So do nothing, hide and wait for a time when the situation might be better for them?
No matter how many will suffer and die while they wait.

The Jedi certainly could have prepared better.
Like having some of their people move away from the temple and spread out in the galaxy. Be more hidden in case things get really bad.
So try and prepare for many eventualities, including some very bad ones.
Or like asking some questions about this very handy and very shady clone army that just got dropepd in their laps.
But giving up all together and never even trying to save the Republic?
No.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I mean you're basically ignoring the entire message and theme of the films to say that Darth Sidious was omnipotent and omniscient and there was no possible way for the heroes to defeat him no matter what they did. That's a terrible, pointless, banal story. It's not the story the prequels told. But there's no way to argue with you because your version of the Sidious character literally can't be beaten no matter what and will always pull another rabbit out of his hat from nowhere. It's not a discussion based on evidence or story elements within the actual films at this point. Like, what's the point of portraying characters making bad choices and violating moral principles which lead to their downfalls if their downfalls would have happened even if they did the right thing? It's nonsensical.

 

To me, we knew that the Emperor was going to win, which was the idea of the prequel, we knew that he was pretty much the most powerful being in the prequels and that there would be no surprise that the Jedi were going to stop him.

The prequels as far as the Emperor was concerned was to establish that he completely and utterly won and it was going to happen no matter what. What made the Emperor special in the prequels was that he wasn't your typical cackling villain. He was just as much a political genius who was an exceptional chess player, who maneuvered a order of powerful ubermen into a bear trap.

The prequels was all about framing Yoda's statement in ROTJ "Don't underestimate the Emperor"

In the prequels he was basically what you would envision Satan to be like at his height of power, pretty much unbeatable. That way there would be a lot of satisfaction in seeing him fall at the end of the OT.

He was never going to be undone or denied his ascension.

It was a tale of one side in ascension because he not only controlled the mystical world but the mundane world. The other side was in its twilight because evolution had surpassed them and deemed that it was time for them to basically be bought to the ground so they could evolve.

 

Satan even at the height of his power is far from unbeatable. If you're going with a Christian analogy, that's a very bad one.

No, the Emperor was not going to win no matter what. He had a plan, and that plan relied on people making bad choices in order for it to work. If good choices couldn't have prevented his victory, then the story of the prequels is utterly vacuous. There's no reason to care about any of the choices the characters make. Literally none of them matter. It fails as a morality play. That's an awful, awful story.

 

-If the Trade Federation accepts some settlement, then Palpatine might not get to be Chancellor yet, but he is essentially forcing the Trade Federation to act on his (Sidious') orders. He tempted them with wealth and expansion, and now holds them in fear as well. They are already in too deep by the time we first meet the Neimoidians. Then he sends Maul to "help" them personally. It seems they have been working with Sidious for some time.

-If the treaty does get signed, the outrage can still be used to his advantage. It means the Trade Federation can invade a planet and hold them hostage until their demands are met. It's galactic racketeering. This is a conundrum for Valorum, because it was him who started taxing the TF. If he is forced to lift the Tax, he will be discredited. No matter what happens, Palpatine will benefit politically as the senator from Naboo.

-If Maul doesn't die, Palpatine's plans may be altered, but I think that's okay, because his later plans don't hinge on whether or not Maul is alive. Maul cannot be the public face of the Separatists. He's a known Sith Lord who's covered in tattoos and looks like satan.

-She won't be around for the vote that Palpatine is planning to have introduced? Maybe Jar Jar will take her place as representative of Naboo. Her tragedy would no doubt be blamed on the Separatists.

-She's either killed, or sent away if she survive's the assassination attempt. I believe the Chancellor said he can order her away, temporarily, for her own safety.

-Dooku didn't implicate Palpatine, but I'm sure some of the Jedi did believe it. For many others, it's beyond their comprehension.

-In the novelization, Anakin does walk in earlier and sees much of the duel, but the scene was reshot for the movie. The scene ends the same in both versions. He knows Palpatine is an all-powerful Sith Lord. Anakin saves Palpatine for selfish reasons, not because he has any sympathy for him or his situation.

-Most of the Jedi, including most of the masters, are off on campaign. Palpatine uses reverse psychology on the Jedi, and it works. He knows the Jedi want Anakin on Coruscant to watch the Chancellor, and thus won't send him after Grievous. It's a pretty safe bet. If Anakin does get the rank of master, it might/will probably cause further consternation among the other Jedi after the fact. The plot thread didn't end up in the movie(just the book), but the reason Anakin is so concerned about getting the rank of master, is so that he can access the holocron vault in the temple library, that only masters can enter. It contains many Sith holocrons, and Anakin thinks he can find the secrets that Palpatine was telling him about; about saving people from death. The truth is Palpatine lied to Anakin. There is no way to save Padme, except not turn to the dark side. Anakin killed her by trying to save her.

 

I would argue that having a large scale invasion Force knocking on the Intergalactic Capitol to extend his Emergency Powers indefinitely was perhaps just as strong of a motivation.
I wonder if the Separatist Forces had been able to reach the surface (as it partially did in the Clone Wars Micro Series- Canon to me), it would seem logical that they'd go for the Senate and the Jedi Temple first. Surely Palpatine had thought of this possibility and would've gone with it. An attack could have eradicated most of the remaining Jedi in the Temple.

Also, I'm pretty sure Palpatine expected Obi Wan to die on the Invisible Hand, so he'd be the single remaining mentor in Anakin's life.

In the initial version of the office duel scene, Anakin was by Palpatine's side from the beginning. Palpatine uses Anakin's Lightsaber to fight the Jedi for a while. Anakin knew Palpatine was a Sith Lord from the scene before, though I don't know if that scene was part of the reshoots as well. The story and Anakin's motivation to join the Dark Side was changed during the film's development. I'm really happy with the version the went with.

 

One of Palpatine's signature quotes is that "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design," but personally I am not sure how much of it is true and how much of it is his having several different plans ready then choosing the one that best suits the events as they occur. If Maul had died/Padme been killed/Dooku double-crosses him then he would have had a contingency in place, but part of his ''Lord of the Sith" persona is never letting on that he isn't actually an infallible all-seeing seer and that he always knew everything would happen exactly as it did.

 

When Palpatine says this in AOTC, he is referring to the broader context of his planning coming to fruition. Namely that he was able to start the war and gain Emergency Powers. When he says it in ROTJ, he has so far succeeded in having his plan carried out, but there are factors that he has yet to take into consideration. When he makes these plans, he looks at every possible angle through multiple futures and then works to set them on the right path for him. An example would be the death of Dooku by Anakin's blade, which was planned out accordingly. What wasn't foreseen was Anakin not fully turning and stopping to rescue Obi-wan, so that he can make it to safety. He refuses to leave him behind, which annoys Palpatine. He cannot persuade him to leave Obi-wan without arousing suspicion. Nor did he intend to be almost killed when the Invisible Hand took such heavy damage and began to descend towards Courscant. But by and large, his actions were carried out as intended.

 

If Palpatine had been killed when the Invisible Hand crashed into Coruscant, he would have simply reassembled his scattered body parts and resurrected himself using the Force. Nothing can stop Palpatine. He always has a back-up plan.

 

You really think Palpatine planned for Anakin to leave Obi-Wan behind? I saw it more as Palpatine putting the idea out there to get Anakin's reaction and gauge how much more of a push he'd need before leaving the Jedi? At the same time Anakin not leaving Obi-Wan behind could be a sign of attachment. Something Palpatine manipulates in Anakin later.

 

Yes, he absolutely planned for it. Refusing to leave an incapacitated comrade behind to face certain death isn't attachment. It's heroism. Palpatine wants to leave Obi-Wan behind in order to better save their own skins. That's just complete selfishness, not non-attachment. If the situation were different, if it were clear that it was truly a choice between leaving Obi-Wan to his death or failing to complete their mission to rescue the Chancellor, that would be one thing. Obi-Wan would be willing to give his life for the mission, after all. But that's not the situation. The situation is that carrying Obi-Wan with them will make the mission more difficult, not impossible. Palpatine wants Anakin to make a heartless choice by forsaking his helpless friend simply to mitigate the risk of failure. It's a far cry from trying to break off from the mission in his starfighter in a misguided attempt to prevent even a single casualty in the middle of a pitched space battle. One has to do with never leaving a man behind, the other has to do with the realities of war.

 

The plan discussed between Palpatine and Dooku before the "farcical duel" was in fact (for Dooku)to kill Obi-Wan, then surrender to Anakin. This takes a positive influence and respected authority figure out of Anakin's life.

 

To be more precise, my question is if people really think when Palpatine foresaw the duel with Dooku, if in his vision he also saw Anakin willingly leaving Obi-Wan behind.

It's just nothing we saw Anakin do up to that point indicates he'd leave Obi-Wan.

No doubt Palpatine really did want Anakin to leave Obi-Wan behind. It makes a whole bunch of things easier for Palpatine later. I'm just not sure Palpatine expected Anakin to leave him. Palpatine just pushed Anakin to kill Dooku. Now Palpatine is going to push a little more and see what happens. It doesn't mean Palpatine thinks Anakin will do it, even if Palpatine is 100% serious when telling Anakin to do it. If it doesn't work this time, Palpatine is still putting the idea out there for later.


We know some day Anakin will follow all order given to him by Palpatine without question.

Is that from the RotS novel? It makes sense, but I'm glad we never see that conversation on screen. Poor Dooku always seems like a sucker for getting into that situation. Especially if he thinks Palpatine will call the fight if Anakin is winning.

I wish the Sith Rule of Two meant the apprentice knew from time to time he'd have to fight someone to the death or be killed and replaced. Dooku going along with Palpatine's plan to prove himself makes more sense to me. But nothing about Dooku's behavior until the end shows he thinks Anakin will take his place. But maybe that's his own confidence Skywalker was no match for him.

 

Yeah. Dooku thinks of Anakin as like white trash, and has a soft spot for Kenobi, but he goes along with Palpatine's plan.

Here's the conversation:

 

Thanks you for that. Very interesting. Dooku and Sidious have a full conversation.

Still very complicated. I feel all Sidious should need to say is "Lord Tyranus, you will kill Skywalker and Kenobi or I will kill you. "

That's basically how it goes down with Sidious, Vader, and Luke. And how interactions between Sidious and Dooku go on The Clone Wars.

I guess my issue is the Rule of Two and Dooku buying what Sidious is selling here about Anakin being brought in. All the flaws they give about General Grevious are exactly the reasons why he can be a high ranking leader that fights Jedi but will never be a threat to either the Apprentice or the Master.

And how about the sexual overtones in that line after Dooku's eyes misted? Yikes.....

 

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

"Palpatine rather hoped that Anakin was going to leave Obi-Wan during the kidnapping, but Anakin is an honorable man and Obi-Wan is his greatest friend, so Anakin insists that he bring him along."

--Ian McDiarmid, Star Wars Insider #82.

 

Great info. Thank you. Lucas's quote makes Dooku out to be ridiculously dumb and naive. Do you think a Sith Lord would believe that line? There is a Sith Rule of Two. How can Dooku not see this as a threat? Does he really believe after 1,000 years Palpatine is going to allow a 3rd Sith Lord? How is having two apprentices not a threat to Palpatine? I'm glad that was left out of the movie. I wonder if this is still how Lucas feels about the story today?

We did see Dooku fight Anakin a number of times on The Clone Wars. The time on Naboo I got the feeling Dooku was more interested in "kidnapping" Palpatine than killing Anakin. There was a moment before Obi-Wan arrived when Dooku could have pushed his advantage but he didn't.

Then again Palpatine told Dooku to kill Ventress, and Dooku followed those order. He knows the Rule of Two is not broken.

So McDiarmid is saying he played the scene with Palpatine hoping Anakin would leave Obi-Wan behind, but Palpatine didn't foresee or even expect that to happen. Palpatine was testing Anakin to gauge his reaction.

 

He thinks Anakin will be just like Ventress. Ventress was a Sith Lord-in-training and everyone involved knew it. If Ventress had remained, there would have been a power struggle someday, and when the dust cleared there would only be two. But the key word there is someday.

Dooku doesn't think Anakin is going to immediately become a third Sith Lord. He thinks Palpatine wants to recruit him as a prospective Sith Lord, just as Ventress and himself once were. Dooku is too arrogant to suppose that he can't work the situation to his advantage indefinitely. He doesn't realize that his usefulness to his master has already come to an end. If he had enough self-awareness to realize that, he wouldn't have become a Sith Lord in the first place.

It's the exact same situation as in ROTJ. Both Palpatine and Darth Vader want to recruit Luke to their side with the intention of using him to replace the other. They both know this is the other's ultimate plan. Vader thinks he can run out the clock and get Luke to help him kill the Emperor before the Emperor can sway Luke over to his own side. But Vader, much like Dooku before him, fails to understand just how obsolete he has already become to Palpatine--and how easily Palpatine can already turn Luke against his own father.