PT What would have happened had Anakin let Mace kill Palpatine?

Would Anakin have still become a Sith under a different name eventually? Or would he had veered back towards the light side?

What do you think would've happened?

 

Without Palpatine I can't see him still turning. He may still be looking for dark side answers to Padme's predicament, but I don't think it can go in the same direction without Palpatine's grand plan.

Palpatine was the last Sith in the galaxy, and if he died there that is the prophecy fulfilled and it seems implied no further Sith are going to appear.

Whether Mace could kill Palpatine is another story. The prophecy says it can only be Anakin, and I am of the opinion that if Sidious didn't have such a close understanding that Anakin won't let him die I think he would try a different plan from earlier on.

 

Maybe killing Palpatine would have turned Mace to the dark side? He is certainly flirting with the darkness in ROTS.

 

I dont see how Mace was flirting with darkness. Can you elaborate, please?

 

Well, he would've committed murder. Ani would've been obliged to arrest him, at the very least.

 

It's like fighting a guy with a gun, who has been shooting at you, stops shooting, and says "Don't kill me - I'm out of ammo" - but is still pointing it at you and you don't know he's out.

 

But, if you shoot the guy, you still have to surrender to the authorities, and they still have to investigate to make sure it was a justified action.

 

Yup. More overt "flirting with darkness" came in the Dark Disciple novel - though it seems to be widely disliked precisely because of that rather unsympathetic portrayal of the Jedi Council in general and Mace in particular.

He talks the rest of the Council into assassinating Dooku, and later gives a "kill anyone who gets in your way" message to Obi-Wan when he's about to confront Dooku and Dooku's would-be assassins.

 

Flirting with darkness isn't the same as giving into darkness. I don't think Mace would have turned to the dark side from killing Palpatine. It's not like Jedi have never killed any of their opponents before...and there's a strong case for saying that Palpatine was so uniquely dangerous that there was no other way.

 

This is what I think would have happened. The prequels show how everything has declined from TPM. That includes the Jedi, former peace keepers turned soldiers dedicated to a corrupt government. There's no real happy ending in that story. There's no good options, just less bad ones. Windu made the decision to execute an unarmed opponent because he was too dangerous to live. That was a situation we saw Anakin in at the beginning, and the scene painted him as in the wrong according to the beliefs of the Jedi. Windu and Palpatine both justified their action the same way (too dangerous to live). Windu accuses Palpatine of controlling the Senate (preventing a fair trial) when the Jedi were considering taking control of the Senate and replacing senators. When the Jedi and Sith are parroting each other, it'll all end in disaster one way or another.

The scary part is that Windu can't become a Sith at that point, but he is an important leader of a militarized Jedi Order. I think that would have been bad for the galaxy.

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The way I see it...Jedi being soldiers and serving a corrupt Republic...no, that isn't healthy, but the Jedi didn't have a choice. Remember Palpatine is controlling both sides of the war, so if the Jedi decided not to fight then he could have just tilted the balance of the war towards the Separatists until the Jedi were forced to participate again. Ultimately Mace Windu is right...Palpatine really was too dangerous to allow to him to live. This sort of thing should by no means be taken lightly, but this is what Yoda means when he said "to a dark place this will take us" (and fortunately this is a work of fiction, and nobody in real life has the ability to manipulate events the way Palpatine did).

In any case, killing Palpatine and taking control of the Republic...no this isn't a good thing for the Jedi to be doing. But ultimately the Jedi are much more likely to relinquish power eventually, while the Sith won't. The Jedi would not have done what the Empire did, they wouldn't have created the Death Stars or destroyed Alderaan. One of these is very much the lesser evil.

 

I don't think killing Palpatine would necessarily turn Mace. It would be pretty Sithly to execute a defeated foe in the name of galactic security though.

I think it depends on where this would lead following. Mace would certainly be crossing a line to act on his anger like that, but I think if he truly backed down after, even faced the consequences of supposed treason in the Republic court, there would be no reason for him to suddenly go mad with power. Mace is a Jedi, he would still want to do what he thought was best for the galaxy.

Anakin was calm when he killed Dooku, he just coldly and vengefully hated the Sith Lord that took his arm. The killing of Dooku just makes further dark side actions flow easier and easier, Imo this wouldn't be enough to turn a fully fledged Jedi alone. There needs to be more of a greed factor involved, as there was when Anakin turns on Mace, for Anakin to actually fully go dark side. Killing Dooku doesn't really gain him anything.

With Luke at ROTJ's climax, Luke isn't fully trained yet, and it is debatable what would have happened if he struck down Vader. My reading is he would then try to attack the Emperor and be beaten down. Riding the dark side mojo from killing his father and trying to fight the Emperor, I could see ending with Luke making a bargain for amnesty at first, planning to use the power for his own ends, before he spirals due to the dark side influence, and ultimately submits to completing his training under Sidious. But I'm not sure.

 

Well how else is a Jedi supposed to eliminate the Sith? Mace pretty much spelled it out clearly that Palpatine had control of both the Senate and the Courts, i.e. He would easily sway them into letting him go.

 

The Clone Wars would be over with Sidious, Dooku and Grievous gone and I imagine the Republic would go through some major reformations to help bring the Confederacy systems back and to make sure this doesn't happen again. I imagine Padme or Bail Organa would become the spearheads of these changes, Padme also wouldn't die making Anakin's fears completely moot so there's no him going over to the dark side.

He might spend a few more sleepless days and weeks wondering if he made the right choice but ultimately, everything would work out for him in the end. How he and Padme are going go about their family is a whole other thing that could go in a million different directions.

 

This sounds about right to me.

 

anakin should had been expeled from the jedi order anyway.

 

Anakin wouldn't have become Vader which means no Empire etc etc.

 

Something that makes that scenario between Anakin, Windu, and Palpatine so interesting to me is that I'm still not sure what the right decision for them to make was. When it comes to whether or not Mace was steering towards the Dark Side by the end here's my take on it...


I will say it did seem like that Mace's actions were supposed to be suspect on some level. His talk about having to circumvent the "senate and the courts" and taking justice into his own hands by killing Palpatine does startlingly call back to his suggestion about the Jedi possibly needing to secure control of such groups, then at least to ensure a peaceful transition which Yoda naturally had problems with. Seemingly an indicator that he'd advocate pushing forward with such a plan, which he may very well have had to going forward for assassinating the head of state without having proved his guilt and is arguably not as far of as one would think from Palpatine's rationalization of what he's doing when he talks about ensuring "peace" through taking power. Another indicator that Windu's thoughts went back to this "dark place" as Yoda calls it is when he asserts to Anakin after he has been told the truth about Palpatine that they need to take action, "If the Jedi Order is to survive" which calls back to his assertion that he senses, "A plot to destroy the Jedi" which brought him to that conclusion in the first place. Which could indicate that is what he's thinking he'll need to do. Not to mention him using the same "He's too dangerous to be left alive" logic when justifying it to Anakin that Palpatine used to justify killing the unarmed Dooku earlier which all would tie into Palpatine's statements about how close he sees the Jedi and Sith as. More on that later.


An interesting trend for me that makes me wonder about Lucas' intentions is that every time a Jedi straight-up overpowers a Sith in combat they are channeling the Dark Side. Namely Anakin's defeating Dooku in ROTS and Luke's victory over Vader in ROTJ. It may very well be the case that Rey did the same in her duel against Kylo Ren in TFA as well. Obi-Wan's victories over Maul and Anakin of course being the exceptions, though he did not do so by directly beating them in combat. Whether it be taking Maul by surprise with his flying maneuver when he looked surely beaten, Maul actually having one in their straight-up blade-to-blade bout ultimately, or getting Anakin into a vulnerable position he could take him down in by baiting his rage/ego after Anakin had been the one on the offensive throughout. That could be the idea with Mace to some degree. He certainly seemed like he was having anger swelling up in that scene, which would be kind of understandable given that he learned how far the Sith have gotten under their noses and just lost three of his comrades to Palpatine during the battle. One of the points I've Lucas has made is the notion of their being two forms of happiness. "Joy" and "Pleasure". The former ultimately being more rewarding in the long-run as it is something you can always carry with you, whilst the latter is about immediate gratification that can eventually wither you. Arguably that notion is what he was getting at with those battle results. The Dark Side helping them attain the "quicker" and "easier" victory in the moment, but as Luke came to realize following that path would be self-destructive in the long-run. Could Windu's distrust if not fear of due process, which would be more in line with the philosophy he's supposed to embody, and instead opting to take that easier route of cutting him down then and there be an example of that?


Would he have full-blown turned to the Dark Side? The two most comparable scenarios are when Anakin and Luke are faced with similar decisions on whether or not to kill a subdued Sith Lord. It was a major step for Anakin's fall, though he didn't walk away from the Jedi right after, and Palpatine was convinced that Luke's fate would be sealed if he went through with it as well. Windu of course had the most experience of any of them, perhaps not in quite as malleable of a point in his life as theirs. But could it have been like Anakin's killing and set him down a path for the worse that'd include turning whether consciously or not? Perhaps, especially if he was forced to become an enemy to the Republic. Unless he had some plan to prove the truth about the chancellor, which I'm not certain he'd be trust enough of, or cover it up somehow. Can't be certain, but it's an interesting question.


We all know that most of Lucas' major "rhymes" have some thematic purpose we're supposed to read from it based on how it compares and contrasts to equivocal scenarios elsewhere in the story. And here it's not only in terms of the physical set-up but also a callback in dialogue to earlier in the film linking of Windu to Palpatine who as mentioned before rationalize killing a defeated adversary to Anakin the same way even when it's against the code Mace and Anakin are sworn to live by. Not to mention that he also parallels Palpatine to some degree at Anakin's first crucial turning point in allegiance. Him being Anakin's current superior who threatens the life of someone he wants to save who is pleading for their aid which ultimately results in his intervention in ROTS as Palpatine would later be in ROTJ.


Mentors also being fallible is a key element in other parts of the saga. Whether it be Obi-Wan's a bit too rigid/critical initial mentoring or his later rather Sith-like manipulation of the truth in order to pit Luke against his father. Then of course there's Yoda's "Once down the dark path, forever it will dominate your destiny" philosophy that gets proven wrong by Anakin's redemption. The way things go for Mace in ROTS could very well be another example. Notably Palpatine shares Yoda's belief concerning the inability to turn away from the Dark Side once embraced as he says to Luke with, "By now you must know that your father can never be turned from the Dark Side. So will it be with you.". Not to mention he was confident enough in it to let Vader, who he just tried to have killed, stand by him whilst he tortures his son which winds up being his undoing.The Obi-Wan example in particular gets me wondering, because we see how in his desperation to defeat his enemy he's inadvertently becoming more like the Sith. Whilst Yoda asserts that he wanted to tell Luke the truth about his father when he thought he was ready, Obi-Wan on the other hand doesn't and fully stands by how he put the story. There's no indication he ever intended to clarify it in such a way. Ultimately the way he approached explaining what happened to Luke's father being unsettlingly close to Palpatine's manipulations of Anakin or how Dooku had approached Obi-Wan with the story of the Sith gaining power over the Senate. Utilizing half-truths and semantic gymnastics. And in Obi-Wan's case it was ultimately leading Luke to the same fate as Palpatine was intending for him. Killing his father, even if intending it to be through different means. With Luke's victory coming when he listens to neither by sparing him. With that in mind I could see Lucas having tried to say that Mace too became dangerously close to becoming like the Sith in his desperate efforts to defeat them.


The two factors that can inevitably need to be addressed as well. The first first is that there is some debate as to whether or not Palpatine actually threw the fight in order to play the victim in front of Anakin. We know that the was playing possum to some degree given that he tells Anakin that he can't "go on any longer" when defending himself with Force Lightning only to later unleash another vicious blast after Windu is disarmed. But in that moment where Palpatine is disarmed it's harder to tell. Regardless of whether or not Windu truly bested him in that moment, he did seem to be giving into anger regardless.


The other is how Anakin's intervention in the scenario led to its own major problems given that it led to Palpatine being able to declare the formation of the Empire and begin the genocide of the Jedi. Much like on the decision of whether or not the Republic should have accepted the Clone Army in the circumstances they were given, under the threat of a massive droid army without something to fight against it with, I'm not sure what should have been done as either has its drawbacks. Basically, if letting Windu go through with his attack was not the right decision either than what would have been?


Arguably that's the kind of position Luke's in during the climax of ROTJ. Killing his father or an unarmed Palpatine both go against his ideals, he was goaded into doing the latter until his father intervened, but one could also argue that letting them go would prove a danger in simply allowing them to keep going business as usual in hurting people. Though originally confident that the station and by proxy the Emperor would be destroyed by the Rebellion, "Soon I will be dead and you along with me", but that has doubt cast on it when Palpatine reveals his trap. Ultimately he sticks to his guns and casts away his weapon before Sidious. With his faith in his father everyone said needed to die and his friends both ultimately being rewarded with the ousting of Palpatine and the defeat of the Imperial Forces. Is that what we should gather Windu should have done. Did that mistrust between Jedi and politicians that's been alluded to before keep him from taking that possible option he discounted? Should he have had more faith in his ideals? After all, as Queen Jamillia put it back in AOTC, "The day we stop believing democracy can work is the day we lose it". He thought the democracy was too corrupted to work in this situation, and that's what put him in the position to betray the Jedi Code and inadvertently help push Anakin away from the Jedi further. Could that be the idea?


Although then you have go back to the question of what Anakin should have done in that scenario where both options presented to him by those he's serving under are problematic. Though notably, that didn't stop Luke from defying all those trying to tell him what to do whether it be the Jedi or the Sith in an at least somewhat comparable predicament. Granted, subduing Windu would have been a difficult feat. Could he have simply blocked his blade like he did earlier protecting Obi-Wan from Dooku in AOTC or as he does later when keeping Luke from striking down Palpatine in ROTJ? Could he have gotten in the way of Palpatine's lightning with his own saber after disarming Windu in order to protect him? Or could he have somehow incapacitated Palpatine during his somewhat protracted electrocution of Mace? That gets into Anakin's motivations in his attack. Whether he intended to simply stop his attack or was willing to kill him. Though it does seem like he sits by a good couple seconds whilst Palpatine bombards him and gets struck with guilt after he sees the deed get completed with Windu getting thrown out the window. Did he even try thinking that far ahead when attacking? Again, it's hard to judge at the end of the day for a number of reasons. But I do get the feeling that Windu's decision to act as judge, jury, and executioner wasn't supposed to be fully in the right either. As I said, that's a big part of what makes this plot point interesting to discuss.


Or maybe this is all just me reading way too much into it. You decide! But hey, it's just fun to spitball when you've got nothing better to do in the wee hours of the night into morning! Who knows how much I will actually wind up standing by later with either further thought of my own or seeing other opinions. As this was just kind of me spewing a whole bunch of ideas at once, which would explain things if you think this post is a little jumbled and way too long which I should apologize for. lol

 

Darkness would have clouded over the temple either way. Literally, it would still be over the Sith shrine. If Windu's actions weren't penalized, it would've made a bad example for the Jedi. This wouldn't help Anakin in trusting the order's intentions.
Who knows if they would've return to ways/behaviors of the Jedi of old. Also, Maul was still out there. He might not have been a super major threat, but he still had been trained by Sidious in combat and political manipulation.

 

Mace Windu kills Palpatine--> Anakin Skywalker has some regrets---> Anakin Skywalker attacks Mace Windu---> They duel it out---> Obi Wan Kenobi joins the duel---> Anakin Skywalker force pushes Obi Wan Kenobi and says, "I wont kill you Brother."---> Obi Wan Kenobi Yells, "You are going against the Jedi Anakin!"---> Anakin force pushes Mace Windu---> Runs away

 

---> Dexter Jettster is closing up his diner for the night ---> Anakin arrives in a panic ---> "What is it?" Dex asks him ---> Anakin tells him " I need travelling papers to flee the planet" ---> Suddenly Mace arrives with his lightsaber drawn shouting "You're going to tell no one what you've seen!" ---> Dex pulls a blaster from behind the counter ---> As he's distracted by Anakin Mace is shot in the back ---> "Dammit!" Mace shouts as he drops his saber and turns ---> Dex stares at him ---> "Maybe we can talk about this?" Mace suggests ---> Dex then fires five more times and Windu falls to the ground dead ---> "We have to get away from here!" Anakin shouts ---> Anakin and Dex flee out the back together ---> The two steal a ship and flee Coruscant ---> When far away the two share a drink of blue milk ---> "Where are we going?" Anakin asks ---> "To a place where we'll be safe" Dex replies, "A place beyond the Outer-Rim!"

 

---> Dex and Anakin reaches Tatooine. ---> Anakin complains about the sand. ---> They meet up with Watto who hires them to be his personal bounty hunters. ---> They find the guy and kill him. ---> They ended up killing Jabba the Hutt's informant. ---> Jabba's men are after them. ---> Anakin and Dex flees with one of Jabba's slaves to the desert. ---> Anakin and alien chick make babies. ---> Padme tracks him down and announces she is preggers with Obi-Wan's child, not Anakin's. ---> Obi-Wan appears. ---> Obi-Wan and Anakin fights it out. ---> Padme and Dex shoot at each other. ---> Alien lady takes Anakin's child and flees. ---> Obi-Wan falls into the Saarlac, but throws sand in Anakin's eyes. ---> "I HATE SAAAAAAAAAND!!!" Anakin yells as he stumbles in after Obi-Wan.

 

No, I don't think he would've become a Sith. And to be fair, he wasn't completely on the Dark Side by that point. He was just desperate. I feel like Mace might become even more suspicious of Anakin had he still come and said "I need him."

The Clone Wars probably would've ended and the Jedi would temporarily take "peaceful" control of the Senate in some way. Order 66 would not have happened unless the Kaminoans found some way to activate it. I'm not sure what would've happened to the clones though. This is honestly a really interesting topic. They should make a sort of alternate universe book about it or something!

 

Lol I feel like this is an easy one. So all of the sith would be wiped out. The jedi order would survive. Federation would fall apart bc it was masterminded by Sidious. Anakin would still have personal issues and could possibly leave the jedi counsel bc of his relation with Padme. He would still be terrified over Padme's childbirth, but I don't think she would die bc it was ultimately Anakin that killed her. Some also argue that Sidious himself caused Padme's death by essentially transferring her life force into Darth Vader. You don't just die from a little choke and a broken heart -.-

 

Only Lucas can tell that.