What's the higher rank? Captain or Commander?

So what's the higher rank in the Imperial navy? This is something I've always been curious about. I've seen a reference (don't recall it) that puts Captain higher. But then in X-Wing: Bacta War, you see ex-Moff Fliry Vorru state something like this: "Convarion was a Commander, not a mere Captain." I probably butchered the quote and I don't have my copy of the book handy.

Can anyone direct me to the answer of this? Thanks.

 

The rank structure in Star Wars is atrocious. The pilots are apparently in the navy, but they use both naval and army ranks. (Yes, the Army shares their ranks with the Air Force and Marines).

In RL, a Captain in the Navy outranks a Commander. However, a Commander would outrank a Captain in the Army. So it depends on which type captain we're talking about.

Confused? Don't join the military.

 

In RL, a Captain in the Navy outranks a Commander. However, a Commander would outrank a Captain in the Army. So it depends on which type captain we're talking about.

That's what I thought, that it mimiced irl ranking system, but Ait Convarion was a Commander, in charge of the Victory II-class Star Destroyer Corruptor. He screws something up in the book and Isard demotes him to Captain.

 

Also the problem with the Commander and Captain is they can be used as a Position, not a Rank. As in Han Solo is the Captian of the Millenium Falcon, or Brevet Captian Loran is the Commander of Wraith Sqaudron

 

Also the problem with the Commander and Captain is they can be used as a Position, not a Rank. As in Han Solo is the Captian of the Millenium Falcon, or Brevet Captian Loran is the Commander of Wraith Sqaudron

Yeah, that actually comes up in the book. Vorru decides it would be respectful to call Convarion "Captain" because he commands the Corruptor. But he still makes it seem like Commander is above Captain. *shrugs*

 

Another possiblity is this. A Captain of a vessel is in charge of the vessel. A Commander of a fleet is in overall charge of where the vessel may go within his squadron or fleet. The Captain is in charge of how he will sail or maneuver in terms of the other vessels in his immediate vicinity.

But IRL, in the Navy, a Captain does outrank a Commander, but both outrank a Captain in the Army, Marines and Airforce. It is a different world.

 

There is no such rank as Commander in the army in real life.
Officer ranks go like this for the US Army, Air Force, and Marines:

2nd Lieutenant
1st Lieutenant
Captain
Major
Lieutenant Colonel
Colonel
Brigadier General
Major General
Lieutenent General
General
(General of the Army)

Navy goes (I might be mistaken, I'm shaky on these):

Ensign
Lieutenant J.G.
Lieutenant
Lieutenant Commander
Commander
Captain
Commodor
Rear Admiral
Vice Admiral
Admiral
(Admiral of the Fleet)

European Air Forces have different ranks, which I think include Wing Commander.

Anyway, Star Wars ranks are a mess. What's General Solo doing commanding a starship anyway? Why was Thrawn a Colonel? And how does Celchu go from Captain to Colonel?

 

Gah.

Simple answer: it depends on which novel/comic/sourcebook you're reading...

***

[Take a deep breath]

1.) Non-rank terminology: in SW, "commander" is used as a catch-all title for many senior officers, much as in the real world, the captain of a ship is called "captain" regardless of his rank. For instance, retired General Luke Skywalker is normally called "Commander Skywalker".

Rationalization: a GGFA-only usage...

2.) Naval terminology: In the familiar English-language rank-system used by the Royal Navy and US Navy, the rank of "Commander" is an officer below a Captain. It's very clear that the 'mature' New Republic/Galactic Alliance uses a USN/RN style rank system.

But... some SW sources use "Commander" as an Imperial naval rank senior to naval Captains (eg Commander Convarion, Commander Kratas). This may have originated in the (rather absurd) inversion of "commander" and "commodore" in an early RPG sourcebook, but it's there in a lot of other sources...

Possible Rationalization: Imperial Naval ranks could be based on (or at least, rationalised as belonging to something like) the Dutch-Scandinavian-Imperial Russian 'family' of naval rank-systems, in which the original hierarchy ran Lieutenant -> Captain -> Commander -> Admiral.

The original ranks of Lieutenant, Captain and Admiral were later subdividied in different ways in different countries (this is a simplified explanation), but "Commander" remained more or less constant as a single rank between "Captains" and "Admirals", normally comparable with the RN/USN Commodore...

... which is actually an English borrowing from the original Dutch "Kommandeur"; the lower-ranking RN/USN "Commander" was an eighteenth-century innovation, originally a temporary commission as 'master and commander' for a lieutenant as captain of a sloop-of-war.

3.) "Army" terminology: this is where it gets complicated. Sometimes, "Commander" is used as a rank for army and starfighter officers approximating the rl rank of Major, and sometimes, for officers approximating the rank of Brigadier. The "Major" rank is no longer found in the 'mature' NR military system (chronologically, after Dark Empire), but the "Brigadier" rank has remained in parts of the military which don't have brigades (notably, Starfighter Command)...

Possible rationalization: "Commander" seems here to stand for the French ranks of chef d'escadre (cavalry only; translated by the RAF for the analogous rank of "squadron leader") and chef de brigade (but again, this is a simplified summary). The cavalry/infantry duality would explain why we have "majors" alongside the low-ranking "commanders". Interestingly, in the pre-revolutionary French navy, a Commodore was also a chef d'escadron...

[Breathe... out]

***

More complicated answer: we can rationalize that there are multiple "Commander" ranks corresponding respectively to:

The French cavalry chef d'escadre/RAF Squadron Leader (alt. to Army/Starfighter "Major")
The Anglo-American naval Commander (NR Naval "Commander")
The French army chef de brigade (Army/Starfighter "Commander")
The French naval chef d'escadre/Dutch naval Kommandeur (Imperial Naval "Commander")

Hope that helps!

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Yes, it really does. Thank you!

 

In the Army/AF the term "commander" is usually used for a 0-3 or above if he is charge of a company.

ie "The commander wants this done by thursday"

This can also be used on Battalion lvl as well (which is squadron/wing lvl in the AF, I think)

So, if Starfighter pilots use AF style ranks (hence Wedge being a General, Tycho being a Colonel, and Wes and Hobbie being Majors. These ranks are not used in the IRL Navy) Then you can be a captain AND a commander.

 

Captain in SW i believe, cause when Wedge is still a Commando Captain Celchu is his subordinate

 

This is how I think the ranks go in Starfighter Command

Flight Officer
Lt.
Captain
Major
Colonel
Commander
General

I would say commander before Colonel, but Wedge goes from Commander straight to General. So...I dunno.

Unless the rank of Colonel and Commander are synonomous. Wedge was never a colonel, and he commander the Rogues. Tycho and Gavin were both Colonels.

 

Thrawn: We should get Brett and Ken for this, no?

But... um...

In starfighter terms, yes. Wedge is a Commander when Tycho is a Captain under him. That bit's easy.

As for the navy thing, i don't think there's much to add to what Thrawn said, except possibly make the point that Convarion may have been being referred to as Commander because a Vicstar is, compared to the rest of Isard's fleet, a small ship...

 

Um, no, the X-wings books were very specific that Convarrion outranked the ISD captains, despite his smaller ship.

In some books and comics, the NAVAL captains CORRECTLY outrank NAVAL commanders; others have it backwards (Truce at Bakura, Jedi Academy Trilogy, X-wing books). By "naval," I am excluding Starfighter Command.

Worst of all, The Han Solo Trilogy b Crispin has Captain Fel CORRECTLY outranking his 1st officer, a Commander, but later INCORRECTLY has Commander Bria Tharen outranking her 1st officer, a Captain.

We know in Jedi Academy Trilogy that "Commander" is an actual rank, due to the fact the rank insignia is specifically described in the text, but KJA's interpretation is incorrect: the insignia he describes IS a Commander, but he claims the Commander outranks the captains.

As for the army and starfighter corps in the GFFA, army and starvfighter captains are lower ranking than naval captains, being equivalent to naval lieutenants. THey are outranked by wing commanders (in the stafighter corps) and lieutenant colonels (in the army). Strangely, only a few EU sources use the term "lieutenant colonel" (ISB for one), most call lieutenant colones "Commanders." I have also noted that naval lieutenant commanders are often called "Majors" in SW EU. Perhaps the ranks "lieutenant colonel" and "lieutenant commander" are considered to wordy by EU authors?

 

There's no more Commodore in the US Navy. Now they just have two grades of Rear Admiral.

 

How about the Rebels? Where does 'Commander' Skywalker fit in? What's the highest Rebel/New Republic rank?

 

LelilaRose: "Commander" Skywalker?

It's possible that he's a the equivalent of a USAF Brigadier General/Air Commodore in the RAF throughout most of his military career - I think he's called "Commodore" in the ESB novellization, and it's possible that he lost his General's rank when he quit the military...

... but alternatively points he might be every one of the various sorts of "Commander" enumerated above...

As XO of Rogue Squadron between ANH and ESB, he's unlikely to be above the chef d'escadre-analog Commander (= RAF Squadron Leader, USAF Major, USN/RN Lieutenant-Commander)...

In ESB, it's possible that he's a "naval-rank" Commander on the USN/RN air-arm analogy (= USAF Lieutenant-Colonel, RAF Wing Commander; I think he's called "Wing Commander" at least once)

By RotJ/TTaB, however, he's a Commodore/chef de brigade-analog Commander (=USAF Brigadier-General, RAF Air Commodore, USN/RN Commodore)

And by the time he quits the Alliance military, he's been promoted to general, hence "Commander" by courtesy...

And in Dark Empire, he's Supreme Commander of the Imperial Starfleet...



You could even maybe make a case that underlying the thorough "English translation" of the movies, novels and comics is a native GFFA rank system, with ranks that can be translated Lieutenant-Captain-Commander-General, with various grades of Commander and General, and "Captain" and "Admiral" being specific commissions for officers commanding ships and fleets...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Here's something to chew on: prior to becoming Rogue Leader, in one comic Luke is called "Lieutenant Commander," indicating that as Rogue Leader, his Commander rank is equivalent to the Naval rank. On the other hand, in Truce at Bakura, he seems to outrank a naval captain (ie, Cpt Manchisco), but his Jedi status might give him a special standing similar to Katarn in MOTS.

THrawn McEwok is correct that many books portray Commanders as higher ranking than Captains, but the problem is that one prominent example, Cdr. Kratas in JAT, is described with the rank insignia of a traditional naval Commander which should be one grade above Captain, which KJA mistakenly interprets as one grade HIGHER, which may be where the mistake started. In ESB, people with this insignia are Commanders LOWER in rank than Captains Lennox and Piett, and movies (g-canon) outrank JAT (c-canon), as much as I am indebted to JAT for the first appearance of my person in a story.

 

Senator_Cilghal: "Lieutenant-Commander" is used oddly by the Rebels... but I wouldn't take Piett's rank-bars in ESB as those of the naval rank of Captain, but rather, whatever rank Piett holds while serving as captain of the Executor... considering he's a Fleet Admiral by RotJ, he's probably something like a Vice-Admiral in ESB, at least...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Well, the other captain (Lennox) had the same rank insignia as Piett, and I believe it is equivalent to a traditional naval captain; for more on my take on rank insignia, see my web page

And regardless, the people with the "commander" insignia STILL serve UNDER Piett, so his insignia should trump theirs, which is the OPPOSITE of what KJA says of these VERY insignia when describing Kratas.

 

Cilghal: Good catch on Lennox - but we could retconn him as another Admiral commanding an ImpStar. Either that, or the rank-badge system changes after RotJ...

I don't remember the scene with Kratas (and he's presumably been rather out of contact for some years), but Stackpole says the same about Commander Ait Convarion... three red and three blue for a Commander (= Dutch Kommandeur, RN/USN Commodore) is the best-established point below senior Admirals in the rank-badge system of the Imperial navy as used post-RotJ...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

But then we have Commodore Sil Sorannan to worry about then...

 

Lelila-Rose:

Where does 'Commander' Skywalker fit in?

From what I understand, Skywalker held the rank of General very briefly (basically, only for the duration of the Shadowspawn campaign) before he retired.

I think references to Commander Skywalker in the later EU are simply a result of the fact that his tenure as General was so forgettable (both in-universe and out). People forget he was a General, and Skywalker is humble enough not to bother correcting them over something so silly as a rank he was never comfortable with in the first place.

 

I hear alot of people mixing the ranks of the Empire and the Alliance. They're two totally different governments and their ranks don't have to correspond. For all we know the ranks of the Alliance were based on the ranks of one of it's memebers planetary military (Chandrila? Corellia? Alderaan?)
Anyway, I always thought it was:
Imperial Navy
Ensign<Lieutenant<Commander<Captain<Vice Admiral<Grand Admiral
Imperial Army
Lieutenant<Captain<Srgt Major<Major<Lt Colonel<Colonel<General
The term Commander is sometimes used for any officer or person in charge of a military installation eg Admiral Motti refers to General Tagge as "commander" and Vader referes to Moff Jerrjerrod as "commander".
However, it is possible that the Imperial Starfighter Corps is its' own organization with its' own ranks and that Tagge was a member of that branch, since why else would a General have command of a starfleet.
The Alliance, I believe, often moved personnel between branches of service as the need arose. After all, when you are severely outnumbered. You need the few people you have to be cross-trained as much as possible. And I think that the New Republic probably used an all new rank system once the Senate convened. You know how much they liked to put their mark on things.

 

From all the books that I've read, I think the ranks in the New Republic/GFFA fleet go something like this...

Flight Officer
Lieutenent
Captain
Commander
Major
Lieutenant Colonel
Colonel
General
Admiral

In the X Wing Books Wedge skipped a couple of ranks by order of Ackbar because he had turned down promotions may time before. Celchu and other members of Rogue Squadron also skipped ranks. Jaina Solo skipped a couple of ranks in the NJO. Also, I think only one individual holds the rank of Admiral at a time, kind of like a Supreme Commander slot. There's some difference in the ground troops, though, I think. Like Judder Page's Commando unit. They may have a different ranking system. I think all this is right, correct me if I'm wrong, though.