When did Darth Vader begin to turn from the Dark Side?

I was wondering at what point you all think Darth Vader began to turn? The reason I ask this is, I am watching the movies again and something I have always noticed is that in ROTJ, when Luke and Vader are in the walkway, at the end of the scene, Vader's body language seems to suggest that he is considering what Luke has been saying. The only possibility I can think of is that he thought hard about what Luke was saying, dismissed it at that point at least for the time being, and then came back to it later obviously.

Sorry if this has been discussed already. I tried to search on the topic and couldn't find anything. I'm looking forward to your thoughts on this.

 

Well he was purportedly always conflicted if that is what you mean. But I don't think he actually began to make a clear choice to turn away from the dark side until the scene in ROTJ where he's standing there watching Luke get struck by that final bout of lightening and Sidious' plan is to kill Luke.

 

The "Anakin" persona begin to awakening at the end of ESB, and he was conflicted for the most of ROTJ. So he only turned away complete after seeing his son tortured.

 

Putting aside the idea that Anakin Skywalker was always buried inside the persona of Darth Vader in some way, I'd be inclined to say that what began his return from the Dark Side was the discovery of Luke's existence, between ANH & ESB. Not in the sense that he started to question his beliefs, quite the contrary, but that discovering that the child he thought was gone - one of the things he was originally trying to protect by embracing the ways of the Sith - forced him to confront the good man he once was, & created the sense of confusion & conflict that ultimately led to him turning back.

At the time he discovered Luke's existence & began hunting him down he may have told himself he was doing it for more power, but some part of himself obviously wanted Luke as a son. That way his downfall would not have been completely in vain. When he saw Luke dying at the hands of the Emperor at the end of ROTJ, it really was a no-brainer for him. He'd already lost Padme, thought he'd lost the child, he'd been given a second chance to have at least part of his family back, now the Dark Side was going to take that away. Again. The whole journey to the Dark Side was a waste of time, time to end it.

 

I agree with Darth_Nub, but I think the key moment that started his turn was when Luke said, "Then my father is truly dead" in ROTJ.

 

All of this kind of goes against the idea that Anakin's persona died somewhere in ROTS, only to reemerge as a force ghost in ROTJ doesn't it?

I guess that's another whole argument...

 

Yes, he's beginning to come back at the end of ESB when Luke escapes. He turns around and you think he's going to kill Piett, but just storms off. Thats the first sign he's coming back.

 

I think it is relevant, but I don't feel that by "died" it is meant that he suddenly became utterly bereft of compassion and had no smidgeon of conflict left within him. That conflict had to have remained clear through to the end, even if just a spark of it, in order for it to be re-ignited at the end. He can't have compeltely and absolutely been devoid of conflict in the way Palpatine was or there would be no spark left to ignite, son or no son. It isn't something that can be snapped on and off like a water faucet - if it was that flimsey, then there would be no big storyline moment either for Luke rejecting the Sith or Anakin returning from Sithhood.

 

I agree that there was an element of Anakin always alive within Vader.

 

I wonder if Anakin ever completely turned? There are so many examples where he could have
behaved far more 'Dark', or violent, but showed remarkable restraint. I mean let's face it,
he really should have slapped the snot out of Lando! And Piett, come on... the least he could
have done was kicked him or poked him in the eyes like Moe on the Three Stooges. Nyuk, Nyuk.

Seriously, the shot of Vader leaning forward when Luke delivers the 'Father... dead' line for my
money. The shot really is nicely done.

Of course tossing Old Palps down the tubes.... might be a hint there.

 

exactly what I was going to say. he's not simply angered by Luke's disappearance like he would be were he to have no feelings for him - he is deeply upset and confused by the emotion, so hurt that even Piett's death will not compensate.

 

there were some compassionate things vader did

he killed the imperials before they killed galen marek
he let galen live for being too distracted
he mourned galen's death
he wept in private over padme (there is a picture of him doing it)
he mourned tao's death
he let piett live after he erred twice

i do wonder if he was not as evil and ruthless as he appears to be.

 

So could someone just clarify for me - when did he 'turn' to the dark side?

I think it is not too unreasonable to argue that he never fully turned to the Dark Side in the first place. He committed acts that are associated with the Dark Side, no doubt, and yes, he did 'submit' to Palpatine after the death of Mace Windu, but surely now we have all discussed the saga and the Force enough to appreciate that there is not a clear distinction between one and the other - there is no line.

He was manipulated into believing the Jedi were committing treason against the Republic and so took action against the Jedi. Does this in itself categorically define him as being fully 'of the dark side'?

His overridng motivation the whole way through is to save the people that he loves. Perhaps he reaches a tipping point on Mustafar when he chokes Padme, but he does let her go, and it's not the choke that kills her. Then when he's told of her death by Palpatine, we all remember his reaction. Surely that ongoing attachment to Padme is evidence that "there is still good in him", as Padme previously asserted. If there is still good in him, then surely he's never fully turned dark.

Then ignoring any EU between PT and OT, we get to ANH and what do we find? Vader, with a clear shot at Luke's X-Wing, target locked, misses. Some people may say I'm stretching the point a bit too thinly here, but I think there's mileage in the idea that Vader, sensing the strength of the Force in Luke, and perhaps sensing even more, subconciously or otherwise, made his shot miss - it's not until after he's fired the shot off that he get's distracted by the presence of the Falcon, so why else did he miss such a straight-forward shot?

Then in Empire, Vader is obsessed with finding Luke. Why - to kill him? No. His exact motives are debatable, but killing him is towards the bottom of the list.

So on to ROTJ, Luke tells Leia he has felt good in Vader, and then goes on to prove the point. All the talk of 'turning' him is merely so the kids have got something black and white to follow the plot by .

If Anakin/Vader had truly 'turned' to the dark side, then surely he would have been beyond redemption...

 

That would denigrate the significance of redemption IMO.

 

The who with the what now?

I'd say slaughtering every Jedi he could, letting Tarkin blow up Alderaan, letting Stormtroopers kill anybody they bloddy well felt like killing (including his stepbrother and his wife), and lying to Lando (sorry, altering their bargin) count.

 

I think one problem with the Saga is that it sets up the two sides of the Force as polar (and binary) opposites while at the same time showing different ways of using the Dark side. Vader uses the Dark Side in a very calculating, efficient manner rather than letting it completely consume him.

But having rewatched the Saga during the last days I think Anakin falls because he lets his fear of losing loved ones control him. In episode three he says "I won't lose you the way I lost my mother." His focus is actually on his own needs, rather than Padmé. Compare it with Luke, who in a similar situation exclaims "they're my friends. I got to help them." I admit, this may be making a stretched semantical point, but I think Luke is more driven by the desire to help than fear of loss.

So, in order to answer the question, I think Vader begins to turn when Luke resists him at the end of ESB. That is the first time Vader sees someone defy the Dark side. Then his turn is completed when Luke refuses to kill him and puts down his lightsaber. I find it very ironic that it is only at that point that Vader fulfills his old wish to stop people from dying .

 

I have to agree that Vader definitely turned to the dark side and genuinely attempted to become a Sith Lord, per the Sith principles. He was a villain, completely. The conflict inside, the little Jedi light that continued to flicker - that was so little as to not make much difference for those 23 years he was a Sith. He did a compassionate thing here and there and apparently had his doubts and differences, but he definitely required redemption - recognition of the wrongfulness of his deeds and rejecting the dark side definitively before he would be able to go by 'Jedi' again. I can understand the argument that he was never a true "Sith" because of that little buring flicker he couldn't get rid of - but he was trying to be and for all practical purposes he was, until he stopped pursuing the Sith route to me - because he wasn't trying to be some kind of new fangled Sith with a dichotomy of thought or anything like that - he was pursuing the real deal; and it wasn't just all talk.

In any case, in terms of the movie, I think the idea was that he was to be considered, dark; a Sith, having taken the vow and all - and so that would make the redemption scene with Luke and the happy Force Ghost ending with Yoda and Obi-Wan meaningful.

 

^ Yes, well said.

 

I think you can only apply that to the OT. As the OT had us believe, Vader was one king-sized bad-a$$, but as they said themselves before ROTS was released, it would change the perception of Vader. And it did. He got fearful, he got manipulated, confused and angry. He made a decision to follow the dark side, he didn't necessarily become the dark side. He then regretted that decision for the next 25-odd years.

 

he started changing the moment he wanted Luke to become his disciple....from there when Vader could have easily killed Luke on Cloud City.....then on the bridge on the Moon of Endor...he had Lukes lightsabre in hand, you can see as Vader ignited it, the fear come across Lukes face, but Vader just turned away....etc, etc, up to the point where he decided to save his son....

 

It's a mystery to me when Vader turned, if at all...he turns on somewhat compassionate ground, initially to save the woman he loved so there may have always been some good in him.

In the Force Unleashed he tries to help Marek in overthrowing the Emporor as he also tries with luke in Episode V, but if this was a call from the light or just a grasp for more pwer is uncertain.

I think in Episode V when Vadder calls out to Luke on the Falcon could be something that points toward the beginning of Vader's turn. I don't think he was ever so evil as to cut off his own son's hand without feeling a twinge of sorrow or regret. The reason why he doesn't kill Piett in the end and just walks off is probably because he already felt conflicted about his loyalties (after all, he had no problem killing Ozzel, Needa and almost Motti).

 

But he didn't do this out of love for his son....but rather as a plan to use his son's skills as a means to further his own plans to take out the Emperor.

 

Sometime between TPM & AOTC.

EDIT: Just realized the title of the thread was When did Darth Vader begin to turn from the Dark Side? and not to.

 

Always a little light in Anakin:

"Where is Padme?...Is she safe, is she alright?"

 

Maybe, but that small amount of "light" existed for Padme... the main reason he turned in the first place. When he gets Palpatine's answer (she's dead, you killed her), the reason for that "light" is no longer valid, and it is replaced by Vader's rage at what happened.