When "Standing Firm" Means Destroying Oneself

So, thinking back to Balance Point and then The Unifying Force, Jacen had images and dreams of someone telling him to "stand firm" which ultimately helped him in his fight against Onimi...


... or did it?

Going back to what we know now of everything involved from NJO to LOTF... how likely was it that Anakin Skywalker gave Jacen the command to "stand firm?" Jacen's Force usage against Onimi aged him, which only happens with usage of the Dark Side. Lumiya in particular was known for skillful deception with illusions and affecting one's dreams and visions. In addition, it could even have been a flow-walking Jacen telling himself to "complete the circuit" as it were, knowing he had to do that in order to become the Sith Lord he needed to be later...

Thoughts?

 

It was Anakin saving the galaxy.

Jacen didn't stand firm.

He broke in his beliefs like a piece of glass hit with a hammer.

 

I've always thought Jacen's killing of Onimi in TUF was an act of the dark side. He was killing with the Force.

As for it being Lumiya or possibly a future Jacen instructing him, I don't know, but I do like the idea of it being a flow-walking Jacen to "complete the circuit."

It could also be that Anakin Skywalker was trying to keep Jacen from doing what he ultimately did and his warning was lost on Jacen.

 

But didn't Luke appear to age at one point in DN when he did some big, complicated force illusion?
Been awhile since I read it and I'm not sure if I'm remembering this correctly.

 

Yes, it's been largely retconned out.

Massive force use=aging doesn't seem to fit.

Especially since the Dark side isn't more powerful.

 

Thanks for the clarification

 

I've always read that scene as him drawing on the Dark Side. The whole first book is about the slow and insidious corruption the Jedi's new view of the Force is causing. That scene even explicitly compares Luke to Palpatine.

 

I took "stand firm" as a warning.

"Stand firm against the dark side."

"Stand firm do not surrender."

"Stand firm do not take the quick and easy way out."

...and so on.

My take is that Anakin Skywalker knew what was happening, he could see Jacen was falling, so he was trying to call out to him and stop him from doing what he was doing, to tell him he didn't need to do it, that if he just stood firm against Onimi he would have defeated him anyway, without resorting to the dark side.

Admittedly I am now unsure whether or not he was using the dark side when he killed Onimi after seeing the EGTTF depiction of him as a being of pure light. If instead he were in a moment of true zen, Anakin's warning could still apply, but be a warning not to fall off the top of the mountain, which is what Jacen has ended up doing.

...or something like that. That's how I like to look at it anyway. I much prefer to see it as a warning than a random encouragement, primarily because I don't like the idea of a Force ghost just turning up in the middle of a fight which was practically already won to cheer the winner on. I prefer they only show up when the galaxy is in mortal danger and absolutely need to and Onimi escaping only to probably be blasted out of the sky by a random capital ship doesn't seem as strong a motivation as trying to prevent Darth Caedus from being born.

 

I've never been quite entirely sure how Luke's illusion thing quite worked as a darkside thing though. Sure, it was a big user of power, but Wookieepdia says Luke did the same trick a year later and didn't look like Palpatine after that. Not to mention illusion isn't the same as shooting someone with lightning, unless they meant it as Luke telepathically intruding on so many minds, but any mind trick could be viewed as a darkside use then. Not to mention we're still not entirely sure on how Palpatine's got his old ugly face, whether he always had that face and hid it with a Force illusion, an illusion which was destroyed during his duel with Mace Windu, or whether Mace reflecting the Force lightning back at Palpatine did it. Has there been a canonical answer yet?

We occasionlly have other people using lots of Force power, like way back when, Dorsk 81 channeled the combined power of about a dozen decently powerful Force sensitives (including Kyp), but ended up fried. Unless that example has also been retconned (everything seems to be retconned or changed at least once sooner or later). I agree that the old face Luke probably was another sign of how bad the Jedi's current philosophy was, not to mention Mara using Force lightning later on in that book, I think.

Not sure what to quite count Jacen's defeat of Onimi as. In the original context, the stand firm part sounds like it was meant to be encouraging Jacen to not give up. of course, at the time, Vergere wasn't really thought of as a Sith villain either, so anything goes, really. I haven't read TUF for a bit, but I think my original thoughts on it involved Onimi being some embodiment of evil and that Jacen's light purified that evil, until there was literally nothing left. Of course, even at that time, the line about Jacen knowing he would never reach that level of power ever again his life but would still spend the rest of his life trying to reach that level again was somewhat worrying, but at the time, with the overall optimistic atmosphere of TUF's last third, I just thought of it as a regret on Jacen's part, not an obsession that would drive Jacen to wander the galaxy studying every Force cult he can find to try and reach that high again. Assuming Anakin Skywalker's (if it was actually Anakin) words were meant in an overall sense, then Jacen has obviously failed, as he's been mostly led around by his nose by Lumiya for the first half of LotF, and after she died, he's just been out of control and blundering about here and there. If the words referred to Jacen's current battle at that time, then he mostly succeeded, as he survived and won that battle. Then again, maybe Jacen simply mis-interpreted the words themselves, its not like Jacen's track record with visions has been all that good. He had a vision of a galaxy tipping into darkness, and then chose to sit the whole damn thing out. Even when he finally got around to actually doing something, he spent a lot of time whining, debating and juding others, as he didn't really give his brother Anakin (Solo) any benefit of the doubt on the Myrkr mission when that Bith (at least I think it was a Bith, the first Jedi to die on that mission) attacked her captor.

The idea that the words were from a flow-walking Jacen is intriguing, since it implies mucking with the timeline, that LotF's plot was always meant to be, a pre-destination paradox, just like how Jacen's image might've given Raynar enough strength to survive the Tachyon Flier's crash, leading to the creation of the Killik Colony, and how Jacen sorta fixed Leia's path so that she would go to the crash site as well. I don't think Lumiya was quite that powerful, to cause an illusion like that, though Vectivus' Force phantom technique could do the same thing, maybe, but... I just wish they wouldn't retcon that moment too.

Although not sure if a flow-walking Caedus would say something that short, as considering his ego, he'd probably want to say something grand and majestic sounding to his younger self. From a logical point of view, if Ca

 

From my literal perspective . . . he just stood there while waist light poured out of him, doing the job. Needless to say, I was not amused.

 

First of all, it's all retcon anyway. Back when it was written, "Stand firm" meant for Jacen to do the right thing, which he then proceeded to do.

That said, I see it this way: Jacen did not kill Onimi with the Force, the Force killed Onimi through Jacen. Jacen became the ultimate conduit, completely in tune with the Force (maybe especially with the Unifying Force, as the book features the NJO coming to terms with its existence) - it's not unlike Anakin burning himself out while channeling the Force in SBS (and killing lots of YV in the process) or Ganner becoming one with the "cosmic dance" in Traitor (killing lots and lots and lots of YV in the process). That's also why he longed to reach that state again - because touching the universe's life force with every part of your self would by definition be the most spiritual experience possible.

Jacen's aging primarily shows that this young man isn't young anymore - he's had profound life experience and can't simply be considered "a Solo kid" anymore. We also have to keep in mind that Palpatine's disfigurements happen when he's throwing everything he has at Mace and gets it channeled back instantly. I don't know if there's official word on that, but maybe it's more lightning damage then Force consumption...? The DN scene finally strikes me as being there to show that "the new way" is wrong. Jedi, especially Luke, have done more and worse without ending pruned up. I guess that's why "Luke pruning" doesn't again happen in LOTF - he's only doing good guy stuff now.

Also, I stand by my concept of using the dark side as "abusing the Force", as in bending the universe's Life Energy to destroy itself - like killing or destroying, filling the Force with suffering. Normally, the universe is a closed eco system; when some part suddenly starts disforming something for its advantage, everything gets damaged because the balance is lost.

Back to topic: The first time that we hear "stand firm" is at a point when Jacen doesn't want to use the Force at all. He's forfeiting his heritage and his Force connection because he's afraid of "abusing the Force". If it's spiritual energy, as uncle Luke tells you, why then use it to lift starfighters or to kill people? In this book, he finally embraces the Force again to free his mother, going back on track - because Force users are there to fulfill the Will of the Force, and that's to stop suffering. The second time he's hearing it, it prompts him to leave his lightsaber behind and confront Onimi with a different mind set. It's not about sword play, not about using a weapon to kill a physical person - it's about the fundamental level of correcting something wrong. And if Jacen stands firm in "the light side" or whatever you or I or Vergere may call it, he'll do the right thing. And not "intervene" or "enforce his own will" when the Force sets things right.

Here's where the "gardening" part comes in: Force users have the responsibility to ensure that the Force is well, and that its flow / its balance isn't disturbed by anything. "Evil" deeds by "the dark side" fill the Force with suffering and cause damage to the universe's life energy. By removing the harming parts, the life energy can flourish. See the damage that the Dark Times under Palpatine did to the galaxy. Now, it's only the question of "the common good" - what is the correct thing to do? Why do so many dictatorships start out as people claiming to do the correct thing? Fortunately, SW is simple fantasy that gives a definitive measure for the correct thing - just ask the Force. Well, depending on the author, that is, but I found NJO to be well thought through in this regard, very much in spirit with the movies.

PS: As long as Anakin and Ganner don't get retconned into dying as darksiders, I can't see how Jacen's actions should be different only because he kills a named/important character. But if you want to retcon it, simply draw parallels to Qui-Gon yelling at Anakin at the Tusken Camp. Problem solved.

 

*ahem* Wasn't the description that Jacen appeared to age 5 years, not that he literally aged five years? Age isn't just a reflection of the physical. It could be as simple as a new look in Jacen's eyes or a particular expression in the right lighting.

 

I always thought that Stand Firm was to trust in the Force, have faith in it even at the darkest times when things seem to be going wrong.

And Jacen didn't kill Onimi, he healed him. It was what Onimi had done to his own body that killed him.

Of course, this does come from someone who thinks that 'Vergere was a Sith' retcon to be a most ill-informed choice.

 

Interesting take on interpretation. Are you sure Jacen healed him? Sold the bugger so can't look it up; thought he fired Care Bear beams of goodness and light that eventually dissolved the jester.

 

I guess my only suspicion when it comes to this kind of rework would be:

Why didn't Luke notice?

I mean, we are literally talking about one of the most intense usages of the force in history...you'd think the taint would've been noticeable to a sensitive on the RIM!

So, if we are redressing Jacen's act to being one that may have been of the darkside, in the same work, we're adding another weight to Luke's "incompetence" bag.

Even with all the new theory mumbo jumbo running around, Luke would've sensed if Jacen was channeling the dark voodoo to beat Omini.

I like the idea of Jacen attaining a heightened sense of the force and the universe, and in the aftermath, desperately seeking a way to get back to it...he's addicted to the rush of it...and since via the Jedi, it is merely an act that the force will choose to use upon you...he seeks a method in the darkside which will allow him to do so on command.

Flow-walking may be the closest thing he gets to it...the ability to see all the pieces of the galaxy and set them in order his way...though flow-walking doesn't offer a permanence...something his real life behavior has become focused on.

At this stage with the whole Vegere thing, the end of NJO may be in flux even after LOTF wraps...but until they make it concrete that Jacen's life has been a lie since Myrkr, I'm gonna try to believe that he had one worthwhile moment as a character in TUF, even if other forces were already at work on his future.

 

Hmm.

I think that "Massive Force use = aging" can still fit with the dark side not being more powerful if the point of folk like Yoda is that you need only the same amount of Force energy to move a mountain as you do a pebble. The light side defies logic and common sense (no difference between X-Wing and Rock), whereas the dark side is logical (you need more power to move an X-Wing than you do a rock) and thus quicker, easier and more seductive.

I think you're right, but I think I'd rather it was more like Hot Rod to Rodimus Prime.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KMCN2eudD2E

With Anakin Skywalker, obviously, being the voice of Optimus.

 

Yeah, Jacen most definitely does not tap into any dark side in his confrontation with Onimi. His actions are of the purest intent and nature; I'm all for reading against the text, but there's really no other way to look at it here.

That said, I do think the possible seeds of an eventual fall were planted during the confrontation, in this line:

---

He knew that he would never again be able to reach this exalted state, and at once that he would spend the rest of his life trying.[hr][/blockquote]Unfortunately, the team behind LotF didn't explore this avenue, settling instead for the rather nonsensical scenario we've been treated to.

 

Jacen didn't use the Force to kill Onimi. He used the Force to absorb the poisons Onimi tried to use on him, to the point where he basically sucked him dry.

 

Jacen did it right. He didn't give into hate. He killed Onimi drawing on the strength of his love. Jacen could have been the greatest of the Jedi, but he turned into a big moron. Maybe Lumiya popped a vessel in HIS head, casing insanity.

Anakin did what he could.

 

i always took the "STAND FIRM" very much as jacen did... almost like an order... he HAD to stand firm he could NOT give in...
ive never seen it as dark taht he did this, he was merely being told to stay strong, and in my opinion very much did so. At the end of NJO jacen could have gone in any direction, his 5 year travels could have made him anyone..

 

From: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Onimi

As the Force was channeled through Jacen, it rushed against Onimi, pinning him to the bulkhead as its pure energy reversed every last deformity on his body. Unfortunately, while his body was restored, the toxins and acids remained, corroding Onimi into a puddle of melted flesh to be absorbed by the ship. The true Supreme Overlord of the Yuuzhan Vong was no more. The Yuuzhan Vong War was finally over.

 

And the Wook HAS got it right in this case, that is exactly how Onimi died.

 

The ultimate message of SW: Handicapped people are teh evil!!!!1!11111

 

Fixed

 

So he kills him by healing him.