When was Darth Vader at his strongest?

A lot of people lately seem to think Anakin Skywalker was at his most powerful in Revenge of the Sith, right before he got his life-support suit.

However I disagree. Though the duels in the episodes 4-6 are not as fancy, that doesn't mean the fighters are less skilled. If you look at a lot of things in real life fighting and sports, flashy stuff does not always work. A lot of the time, simple effective tactics are best. Oftentimes, when fighters are REALLY skilled (have fast reactions or great power) they force their opponents, and each other, to use simple and effective strikes, rather than fancy twirling made-for-movies techniques.

If you look at the swordfighting techniques used throughout history I think that supports this claim. People didn't really twirl around their swords when they fight. They do what works, and what works are quick simple strikes and subtle techniques, rather than glorious show-off moves. The show-off moves are for weapons demonstrations and kata. Possibly also being effective to quickly slaughter lesser foes.

Also, Vader himself claims (though it may just be a shallow boast) in Episode 4 that "Last time, I was but the Learner. Now, I, am the Master."

The duels in episodes 4-6 are not unskilled in my eyes. To me they look far better than what I saw in Episode 1, which was totally fancy unusable stuff coming out of Darth Maul and his ridiculous weapon. However episode 3 and possibly ep2 fights, do *appear* visually to be more impressive, though as I said appearances can be deceiving.

People seem to think that Vader's mechanical limbs make him a cripple. Yet in Episode 3 Anakin's right arm was already fully mechanical, yet it doesn't seem to hold him back any. Technology for his legs and left arm should be just as good and allow him to fight as good as ever. The only thing I could see is that perhaps Vader might get tired more easily since he needs assistance breathing (though his mask may fully compensate). And perhaps, with less real body parts, his ability to use the Force might be only half as much since he is missing half his body.

In any case, I think Vader is probably at least as powerful in Episodes 4-6 as he was in Episode 3. What do you guys think?

 

all of the flashy moves anakin used in ROTS are mostly against weak foes, like the seperatist leaders, droids, etc. and actually if you do study anakin and obi-wan's saber fight at the end of ROTS, anakin didn't exactly use "show-off" moves against obi, he actually was fighting very equally to his former master, which he had to do because he knew obi-wan was good. it did look like anakin was using the flashy moves in the battle because it was very intense and fast. and by the end of the battle the two wear down and eventually obi-wan hardly breaks a sweat in taking down anakin. so i do agree with your theory, vader is probably almost equal to his former self, but age also might set him back a little.

 

Yes Ep 2 and 3 lightsaber duels were not too flashy in my opinion, just very intense and good. Episode 1 is the one that has too much twirling flash in the dueling choreography.

Age might set Vader back a little...but how old is he in Episode 4-6 anyway? Count Dooku still seems to be in his prime in Episodes 2-3, yet he must be pretty old. He's probably older than Vader in 4-6.

I think in the Jedi world, Jedi/Sith don't get too farty until they are about to die. I guess this includes old Obi-Wan Kenobi and 900-year old coughing Yoda. Wonder if the Emperor was farty in Return of the Jedi? Maybe that is why he did not carry his lightsaber anymore? Also Emperor walks with a cane in RoTJ. How old is he by then anyway? O_O He must be over 100 years old by then!

I never really understood that. If I were the Rebellion, I might have just waited 20 or 30 years for the Emperor to die of old age before rebelling.

 

he was his strongest in ESB when he fought luke

 

vader in a new hope is about 17 years older than anakin in ROTS

 

hmm think on this I will

 

Vader never lost his knowlage of the force.
He was more powerfull as human though. If Vader had killed Obi-Wan the Empire would rule the galaxy forever. He lost alot of his abilites when he became a machine.

He has more knowlage of the force in the OT than he had in ROTS but, if he would remain human he would become the most powerfull person in the universe.

 

I thought that the suit made him slower but definatly not less powerful. Vader is Vader and always will be.

 

Obviously Vader would have grown more experianced over time but you have to understand the limitations in filmmaking. People think that just because the coreography in ep 4 sucks and dosen't get much better in 5 and 6 means that the duelists sucked. If the fights would have been like they were in the prequel trilogy then this stupid question would have never been asked. That is all I have

 

Anakin is way stronger in the OT. He's just a Padawan in the PT, and besides he loses to Ben in ROTS. He finally beats OB1 in ANH,

And in ROTJ he does the thing that no apprentice was able to do, he kills his master darth sideous

 

i think he is at his "strongest" when he is most comfortable in the dark side, and that's after padme's death and before he finds out about luke.

admittedly, we don't get to see him do too many super-impressive things during this time (essentially, the duration of eppy iv), but if you think through it logically, it's when he is free to embrace to efficient power of the dark side without letting any personal feelings get in the way.

but, we should keep in mind during this discussion that when he is at his STRONGEST and when he is at his BEST are two very different things.

 

he was strongest in ROTS because he didnt have many mechanical parts and he was alot faster.

 

he was better in the old one because that is when he knew the true power of the darkside and knew more tech. under the training of sidious and had more powerful striked with the mech. parts of his body

 

I agree with what I have heard a few people say, he is stronger in the OT, because he has more knowledge and strength within the force, however his agility and light saber skills probably do diminish, he never lives up to his potential.

 

I don't know about strength, but certainly in his later years Vader has more knowledge of the force than Anakin ever did.
But his ability to use the force most certainly was diminished because of how largely mechanical he was, *if* he hadn't have lost to Obi Wan, then without a doubt Vader would have become the greatest force user ever.
I think Vader was marginally stronger in the OT than he was in RotS, only because of the increased knowledge of the force - and he was far less reckless than in his youth.
Having that done to your body is a lesson harshly learned.
But Vader showed his true gift of strength in RotJ, over coming the darkside for the love of his son, and defeating his Master, Darth Sidious, apart from it being a badass adventure film, thats what the Movies are really about to me.

And about the powers well, in 1977 there just wasnt the technology to show the true skill of the force users - Jedi didn't come off nearly as powerful as GL had envisioned - i always look at EU for the true demonstrations of a Jedi's power, immersing themselves in the force and running across planets in a matter of seconds.
Now there is the technology to show this on screen, but it would look a bit weird if the Jedi have all these cool powers in the PT, and then in the OT set afterwards, theyre just electricuting each other and having normal sabre fights etc~

But to get to the point RotJ Vader is the Strongest, for such is the will of the force.

 

First, in real life when it comes to dword play tou look to the end the fight quicjky as possible while expending the smallest amount of energy. Fancey moves are a way of getting killed real quikly.

Yet, it wouldn;t be as entertaining. Which is the point of a movie. It's far more intersting to watch. I sure as hell would be pissed if the SW fights went as fast as real sword battles woul go.

"I was learner, but now I am the master" line is reffering to Annakin having more control. Which is to say his power is nor more deadly than ever. This is not to say he is more powerful.

You got got to graph his power vs. his control. Also, you could look at the line as smack talk. After all, Obi Wan brushes him off by saying "Only a master of evil darth." as to say, what is that suppose to scare me. Last I recall I &*#! you up pretty good. So bring it on!

I like it this way too. Because what else does Obi Wan tell him "You can't win Darth, if you strike me down I'll become powerful than you can imagine."

Now, as to this line. I'm not for sure what he was alluding too, but on one level Obi Wan is definetly again trying to agitate Darth. Saying to him, I'm not impressed by what ever power you have gained over the years. Because the next thing that happens is Darth takes several strong parries at Obi Wan. Which means that Darth is angered that he has failed to gain the respect of his former master.

And to settle the debate. Darth never defeats Obi Wan. First - as originally conceived by Lucas - this disappearence was to be a trick. Obi Wan is suppose to come back in 6 and be part of the end battle in 6. Listen to the DVD. This fully explains the line of "becoming more powerful". Yet, because Lucas was rushing with 6 and had changed his concept to the redemption of Vader this does not play out. As a result it is viewed as Obi Wan realizing he is surrounded dedcided to give himself to the force.

Now, if you ask me Lucas truly missed an opportunity to have great film tragedy play out. If Vader does not destroy the emperor and Obi Wan comes back from the force and starts to pull out a can of whoop ass, and he and Luke destroy the two sith then, Vader's death is a hell of lot sadder. I mean you would think that poor little kid on tattoine and how it wall went wrong.

A scene where Vader is defeated. The mask is removed.

Vader only now realizes the rror of his ways. And is feels at the end his remorse. His old friend and son stand at his side.

Vader - "I was wrong Obi Wan."

He looks with a faint smile to his son.

Luke - "Father."

Vader - "You look so much like your mother."

Obi Wan - "Let go Annakin."

Vader looks at Obi Wan.

Luke - "NOOO! We can get you out of here."

Vader - "You were right Obi Wan. You were right. Now go Luke, tell your sister I love you both."

Obi Wan - "Be at peace my old friend."

Annakin smiles at Obi Wan last time turns his head. Looks into Luke's eye and dies.

I think this would be the redemption of Vader, that in defeat he sees that the only thing that sustained him was the hate and that by looking at his old master and son he sees the life he could have had. That had only he let go all those years ago the real happiness he he would have lived. Clearly understand it is not his life Obi Wan is telling him to let go as I have written, but rather to let go of the hate and the life he has lead.

 

Age doesn't seem to matter that much sidious was pretty old when taking on mace and later yoda. And teh cane doesn't seem to be a sign of anything, afterall yoda uses a cane in all the movies yet in his duels with dooku and sidious he is at peak fighting skill.

 

Vader didn't defeat Kenobi in Ep 4, Kenobi held up his sabre and allowed Vader to strike him down so luke and the others could escape.

 

People think that just because the coreography in ep 4 sucks and dosen't get much better in 5 and 6 means that the duelists sucked.

I don't think the choreography is that bad in Episodes 4-6, only different. I personally think only Episode 1 had bad choreography, where many things looked very fake and fancy.

What you just said though is what a lot of others believe.

If the fights would have been like they were in the prequel trilogy then this ****** question would have never been asked.

Yes. Unfortunately they were not, for various reasons.

I think that what George Lucas has said adds to the debate as well. He seems to have made public the idea that Vader is somewhat machine-crippled in the original trilogy to explain why the fights look different. But I think he could have instead stood up for himself and simply said that an older, wiser Vader prefers to use simple but effective techniques.

i think he is at his "strongest" when he is most comfortable in the dark side

One of the things I find disappointing about the series is that Vader never demonstrates any improvement after going over the Dark Side. Even if he is stronger in the original trilogy, it would be due to experience and wisdom. Not from exclusive Dark Side powers, for Vader never displays any. Though the only Dark Side power I can think of is Lightning.

Perhaps the main idea of the Dark Side is to simply get hateful, at which time all Force powers (pushing, lightsaber dueling) are enhanced. That seems a bit lacking though.

he never lives up to his potential

I agree with this. Anakin never lives up to his true potential due to his fall to the Dark Side, and being put into a mechanical suit which holds him back. However that doesn't mean Vader isn't at his strongest in the original trilogy, for experience and wisdom more than compensate I think (and Vader isn't too old yet).

 

But Vader showed his true gift of strength in RotJ, over coming the darkside for the love of his son, and defeating his Master, Darth Sidious, apart from it being a badass adventure film, thats what the Movies are really about to me.

I fully agree.

Age doesn't seem to matter that much sidious was pretty old when taking on mace and later yoda.

Yeah that's what I said earlier. Age doesn't affect Jedi as much as one might think. However I think it still does affect them, it is just that the extra experience Jedi get with age more than compensates. When one gets REALLY old, then I think age does make them weaker.

And teh cane doesn't seem to be a sign of anything, afterall yoda uses a cane in all the movies yet in his duels with dooku and sidious he is at peak fighting skill.

What makes you think Yoda is at peak fighting skill in the movies? For all you know he is about to die. He is, after all, in the last 10% of his lifespan. Maybe when he was 400 years old Yoda was a total badass who could whoop anyone.

Because Yoda can still fight when he is farty with a cane, that means the Emperor can too. And he does, he shoots lightning in Return of the Jedi. However, the need to use a cane on a daily basis does tell us that the Emperor is a lot older, and perhaps on his last legs, in RoTJ. He could be much weaker than he was in Revenge of the Sith. Maybe he can still shoot lightning well, but his lightsaber skills may be diminished to the point where he no longer feels they help him compared to his lightning. Maybe that is why he no longer carried his lightsaber.

The way I saw it, Yoda fights with his lightsaber by using The Force to empower his leaps, his strikes, his blocks...everything. Without the Force, Yoda would just be a little green crippled, slow creature with a cane, that a little girl might beat.

But if younger, a Jedi has not only the Force to empower his strikes, but also his own physical strength. Maybe that is why Mace Windu was possibly the strongest Jedi, even though the Force was not the strongest with him.