Wherefore art thou Darth Krayt? (aka. Wherefore art thou Darth? v. 2.0) [Legacy SPOILERS]

"Lord Bane, you mastered the parasites -- the orbalisks -- that attacked you... that fed on your body as these Yuuzhan Vong life forms feed on mine. HOW?! Lord Andeddu, legend holds that your body died, but you used the Force to keep it vivified. HOW?! Lord Nihilus -- you escaped death by containing your consciousness within your armor. HOW?!" - Krayt consulting the three holocrons, Legacy #5

With Legacy hyperjumping its way into its next arc in style, the many Sith Lords of nihilism and solipsism of Knight Errant coming up, and enough info about the Sith Emperor to routinely be derailing the main TOR thread each weekly update with stories of Javelin Dreadnoughts and Darth Revan's long lost children, I can see the Darth thread(s) needing a new home in the coming months. As the original Wherefore art thou Darth? thread has been locked though, I figure we may as well resume discussions in a new one. Plus the old one is pretty big already.

(And Legacy #46 lends itself to a new title so well. )

In the interests of starting things off, I'll let the pictures do the talking:

[image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080709203311/starwars/images/7/7e/SWlegacytpb4.jpg] [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071122021511/starwars/images/9/97/KOTOR2Nihilus.jpg] [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050707201725/wowwiki/images/7/78/Arthas5.jpg] [image=http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n107/SithStarSlayer/Empty_armor.jpg]

The Fate of Darth Krayt

"You animated your own body after its death." - Wyyrlok bargaining with Andeddu, Legacy #29

"Like many Sith, Karness Muur sought a way to defy death itself. Muur's philosophy, however, was not to preserve his body, but his mind -- his essence. Muur created not simply a holocron, but the talisman -- into which he invested his very mind and will." - Legacy #30

"No! Do not interfere! It's working! Now I understand! - Muur healing Krayt, Legacy #30

"Made Muur... begin healing in the Force... saw how to heal myself... I can survive! - Krayt, Legacy #31

"Where is Lord Krayt?!" - Nihl, Legacy #46

So some food for thought to get things started:

The three ways to cheat death...

Right at the start of Legacy, we saw Krayt seek THREE possible answers to his problem (i) healing, (ii) body hopping, (iii) soul anchoring. If we look back over the whole of the series up to this point, we have seen actually Krayt look into all three of these techniques in the very same order that he consulted the holocrons back in Issue #5, albeit he has had more success with some than others.

Bane wanted nothing to do with him in #5. Krayt tried this again with Cade during the Claws of the Dragon arc, but Cade also wanted nothing to do with helping Krayt to heal using Cade's dark side healing powers. So that ruled out the first option: Bane's healing.

Wyyrlok looked into the second option for Krayt in #29: Andeddu's body hopping. But Andeddu also refused to help so Wyyrlok destroyed him.

Things looked hopeless after Andeddu refused to help with no answers in sight and nothing from Nihilus beyond unintelligible utterances, but then as if by magic the solution shot out of the past on the arm of one Celeste Morne: the Muur Talisman. In #30, we saw Muur at long last provide the answer and begin healing Krayt of the Vong parasites, seeming to have finally provided Krayt what Bane and Cade had denied him: the power of dark side healing. However, as we all know, Krayt never got the opportunity to complete this because Wyyrlok betrayed him.

Redivivus?

But we should not forget Muur's own longevity was not through the healing he reluctantly offered Krayt, but through the very same technique Krayt consulted Nihilus's holocron about back in #5, the third seeming forgotten option that compared (i) and (ii) had appeared little more than a KOTOR2 cameo: soul anchoring.

Option (i): Bane, Cade and Muur's dark side healing:

 

Good to see a successor to the old thread but... "Why are you Darth Krayt?"

 

I don't know if this is connected but could the Sith on the cover of Legacy #48 be Stryfe with Yuuzhan Vong thingies growing out of his skull? That would suggest Krayt body hopping.

Or maybe Cade is defeated and Krayt takes him over?

 

Sorry, Uli...

For what it's worth, I deliberated for a good two minutes on whether to name her Krayt or not, but the associated contemporary context was ultimately too good to pass up.

But she's still the same thread... you just need to let the old one go and accept its daughter, son, Sithspawn for what she/he/it is.

I first thought that Sith looked like Stryfe too... on rethink though, I think it is probably just a random Sith for Cade to kill. I'm flummoxed though about why they seem to be on Daluuj given the impaled droids. Would there be any reason for having those on Korriban?

As for Cade? I originally was dead set on that happening. After the last issue though, I'm not sure if I see them taking Cade back down the deep end again. I still expect to see him struggling to fully come into the light for good, but I don't really know what it now adds the narrative if it just becomes another "One step forward, two steps back" thing.

Still, if his body does indeed turn out to be gone, I'm torn on who I'd most want Krayt to take control of? (Be it through the helmet or ghosting or whatever other mechanic.) There's going to be a lot of people clustering on Korriban soon... so there's a number of options. The main thing that angles me toward Nihl is simply (a) him being in the room first, and (b) the phonological link between "Nihl" and "Nihilus"; I confess though that if Nihl became the same as Nihilus that may come across as rather too directly rehashy? I find it surprising though that I've never considered that before... I've been talking about Krayt surviving since he died, but of all the viable hosts I don't think I've ever mentioned Nihl. Discussed Cade, Antares... never Nihl.

If it does turn out to come back to "Cheating Death: Option 3" then that actually just goes to show how well the Nihilus snippet was buried in the series' subtext all this time.

So... not sure. Think I still prefer Nihl for reasons beyond his name, i.e. the colour scheme, that he's not Korriban-born, that he's already the Sith rebel, that he's not been seen much since his shaming in Claws of the Dragon and now pops up again at just the right moment, etc. Part of me has always felt Cade is the one who should take Nihl out due to Kol, but I've also never known why Nihl got to live, as a rematch has always seemed pointless as Cade already kicked his ass once. If Nihl "redeems" himself in Krayt's eyes though as his host, then it could make a Cade-Nihl rematch more poignant than just being "Cade smacks Nihl around, Mk 2".

After Bane possessed Zannah, I'm also wondering if we shouldn't be so quick to rule out female hosts? (i.e. Talon, Maladi, Sia?)

Part of me would like Sia or Antares... but... another part of me actually likes the idea of someone putting the mask on but us not knowing what has happened until six months later, i.e. a sort of Rohlan-Demagol character switcharoo that is alluded to but not confirmed for a looong time.

 

I'm objecting to incorrect usage of "Wherefore".

 

Pfft.

You're forgetting the majority of people here use American English... I wasn't expecting people to pick up on the technicalities.

 

My unlikely Krayt theory: post-mortem redemption, body disappearing trick, comes back all glowy.

 

That's about as likely as Jacen becoming a Force-ghost. Oh wait...that's what Denning originally wrote..Well then.

 

Yeah... I can't say I necessarily rule out the idea that he had a last minute "Oh no, I made a big mistake, if you can betray me Wyyrlok then the One Sith was wrong!" change of heart.

I'd generally say that Legacy on the whole has been too dark and subtle for such a sudden reversal. Even Cade's move to the light this issue hasn't been complete as there's still room to go... but who knows? Can't say a ghost is out of the realms of possibility, even if it wasn't a redeemed Jedi ghost but more of just an Ajunta Paal "I did bad *cries*" ghost.

Oh, and Uli: If it makes you feel better, to put your grammarphile nightmares at rest, just pretend the answer to the question is: "Because I put his helmet on."

 

Great analysis so far and I am definetly on board with the armor theory.

My argument from the Legacy thread, when I first read the page of Maladi tempting Cade was, "Why is Krayt there?"

If she is showing him the fear of the thing that he could become, she did that later that page showing him striking down his legacy. If it was meant as fear of what Krayt represented, Cade seems to be over that as he is positive he killed him. And look at when this appears, when Cade is talking about walking the thin line between light and dark. That is something Maladi shows she cannot nor cares not to do. So it just was out of place.

My theory? The spirit of Krayt calls out to Cade, much as the talisman did earlier.

 

What do you mean? Are you referring specifically to what occurred in Abyss, or is there some earlier version that you're alluding to?

 

By getting rid of them...

 

No, I think it was an interview where Denning said that he originally wrote Jacen coming back as a Force-ghost to Jaina, fully redeemed. He didn't like it, though. Instead he wrote what we have now, with the intention of Jacen being fully redeemed. Now we have Abyss where Jacen is in damnation, so I guess they decided to take advantage of the controversy of Jacen's redemption and bring him back.

 

Bane didn't posses Zannah.

This if anything. I really am hoping Krayt is dead dead and we don't get any Zombie Krayt or Ghost Krayt. I'm a party pooper I know. Maybe he just knew how to dissipate his body much like Mara Jade did. Well after the moment of death. Course why he did it when he did it is a mystery to me. Pointing to his killer?

I tend to think this whole Krayt is in the armor or is in Stryfe has it's limitations. It wouldn't be that much of a shocker and I'm expecting a bigger shocker than this last issue based on Randy's DHC pannel statements. I'm also not totally sure looking at any precedents in past EU to support theories means anything when J.O. is thinking this stuff up.

 

Who's to say he didn't? Not Dynasty of Evil-- it's ambiguous.

(And at this point someone will say "Well that's not what Karpshyn meant." But it doesn't matter what he meant. It matters what he wrote.)

 

I am with Manisphere on this one. Krayt survived his fall off the cliff but then? Wyrlokk pulled him out of his shell and dipped him in garlic butter and ATE him. He's long since been digested into his component parts and flushed into the Coruscant sewers after a good long time in a Chagrian cud.

 

The main problem is that we've never seen a Sith body disappear. The bodies either stick around, or they explode. Disappearing is very much a Jedi thing. In addition, if Krayt transmitted his spirit to his armor . . . why did it take him this long to do anything? He had plenty of opportunity between Wyyrlok frying him and getting stuck in stasis to puppeteer his body (assuming this is what Nihilus did) and escape, or warn a Sith, make mental contact with Stryfe or Talon or something. Yet he never did. And Wyyrlok never sensed, "Hey, Krayt is still around. For some reason I still feel his presence right here."

Moreover, there are story considerations. Why did we spend a huge amount of issues putting Wyyrlok in charge of the Sith, and then just start building an opposition to him in Maladi and Nihl, just so Krayt could come back and grab control again? Why invest twenty issues in creating a post-Krayt landscape and moving the story past him into the next stage if he's just going to come back and undo that? I just don't get it. And what's bringing Krayt back going to offer? A big-deal shock reveal. And . . . what else? It doesn't progress anything. If Krayt comes back, Wyyrlok's got no independent clout yet to oppose him, so Wyyrlok gets offed, and we . . . go back to the pre-Vector status quo. And if we get a split for some reason, what does that offer us that the Nihl/Maladi-Wyyrlok split the story has already developed doesn't? Other than a regression back to a pre-Vector villain just because? There's just no conceivable reason. It adds nothing.

Let's look at the possible explanations for Krayt's body going missing:

1. Krayt is alive. He got up, stripped naked, rearranged his armor in place, and ran off to flash Wyyrlok and scare him to death. Unlikely for obvious reasons.

2. Krayt's body has disappeared, confirming his death to Nihl, Maladi, and Talon. Cue revolt against Wyyrlok. Possible, simple, but it does run afoul of all established Sith-body mechanics. But there's not a really blatant standard, so John may just be running into new territory here. It's not like we haven't had inconsistencies before.

2a. Krayt's body has disappeared because at the literal last second of his life, he got redeemed. Unlikely for obvious reasons.

2b. Krayt's body has disappeared because his essence has transferred to his armor, again at the literal last second of his life. Theoretically possible, but suffers from the problems I've already outlined, as well as the sheer outlandish complexity and unlikeliness of it all, plus the fact that there's been no sign at all so far that transferring your essence makes your old body just melt away.

3. Wyyrlok has taken Krayt's body out for some reason and he's floating in a vat of Sith formaldehyde, providing incontrovertible evidence he's dead. Cue revolt against Wyyrlok. Simple, fits the developed story and the postmortem mechanics we've seen, and provides the best evidence of death.

3 and 2 progress the story. 1 and 2a are blatantly ridiculous. 2b pulls a U-turn from the story as it's developing and throws a monkey wrench into things apparently purely for shock value. I think it's obvious that 2 and 3 are our likeliest options, with 3 probably making the most sense.

 

"I am Darth Zannah" isn't very ambiguous. I think your stretching a bit here, going against both the text of the book and the authors own views on his story.

Blatantly ridiculous is something comics do very well, especially Star Wars comics from Dark Horse. How many times did Palpatine come back?

Which goes against the set up of putting Krayt in the stasis chamber in the first place.(Issue 34)

 

Is this really a serious argument? "Palpatine came back nearly twenty years ago in a controversial move under a different editor, so Randy is totally going to approve that today."

But I'd really like to see you explain why the comic is going to have Krayt stripping out of his armor and running around bareassed. Rather than just say, "But Dark Empire lol!"

So does anything happening to the body. But it's a lot easier to say "The body isn't keeping as well as Wyyrlok hoped" or "Wyyrlok's running an experiment" than it is to say "Krayt woke up (inside a stasis field) and the first thing he thought he'd do was go streaking."

 

Randy then already approved bringing back Hett once, as well as Tra'Saa and K'Kruhk.....even Vos for that matter. I don't know if he makes all the decisions myself, or just rubberstamps them, so I don't want to put all my grievances at his feet.

But its not even an arguement Havac, I'm just pointing out that weirder thing have happened before. Comic books are famous for killing characters and them bringing them back.

You seem to be placing a lot of faith in the creative team, thinking that something of the like won't happen now. I don't have that same faith because the writers seem to have been very unwilling to let go of characters in the past.

I mean we're still playing around with a "dead" Darth Krayt about 13 issues after he died. We have not yet gotten solid closure on this issue and the empty armor just adds fuel to the fire.

 

We're still playing around with it because the plotline is Darth Krayt is dead but Wyyrlok is hiding it because he'll face a challenge without Krayt's legitimacy. We haven't had twenty issues of "Is Krayt dead or not? Duh duh duh!" We've had twenty issues of "Krayt is dead, but what happens when everyone finds out?" Which has nothing whatsoever to do with leaving some kind of Krayt question hanging; it's just the fallout of the event, and it's the basis of Wyyrlok's plotline. What about that lacks closure on Krayt's death? How the heck does "What happens now that Krayt is dead?" fail to give closure on whether or not Krayt's dead?

And how does extending the life of two characters (T'ra Saa is a member of a species already established as having multi-millennia lifespans, and I have no idea what the hell you're talking about with Vos, unless you mean gotcha moments in one comic that were resolved like one page later, which is the equivalent of arguing it makes total sense they'd resurrect Anakin Solo because Michael Stackpole "resurrects" Corran Horn all the time) mean that they're likely to resurrect somebody who's been dead twenty issues? John and Jan didn't let go of characters they'd created? Maybe. Have they ever hung onto a character they killed off? Have they brought back Aayla? Did they resurrect Kol? You think they're likely to bring Tholme back? Gee, I can't seem to remember that time they killed Sora Bulq and then brought him back because they loved him so much. (I'll give you a freebie: there's one character they actually brought back: Bok, who had been "killed" by a fall off a cliff -- exactly like the cliff fall he had already survived once in the same story that "killed" him -- and who was brought back to serve an extremely specific purpose later, not because he's a pet character. But I'm still waiting to hear what actual purpose there is for the creators to bring Krayt back.)

If you want to point out weirder things have happened . . . OK. Yes. They have. Great. Thanks for pointing that out. Bulgaria is a country in Europe. Thought you might like to know. But what does that have to do with a discussion about what's likely the case? Do comic books resurrect characters a lot? Yeah. X-Men comic books. So what? "It's not even an argument" is right. So what's the point of saying it, then?

 

Do you take everything a Sith says at face value? We (both the audience and Luke as a protagonist) can't even trust Obi-Wan to tell the truth.

Or think of it this way: Stackpole often uses a narrative trick of saying "darkness took Corran" or somesuch and even has characters saying and believing Corran is dead. Doesn't mean Corran died in Wedge's Gamble (or any of the other half dozen times).

As for the text of the book, it's pretty clear that Zannah's arm trembling is somehow significant, or the story wouldn't end on that note.

Now, Karpshyn did tell us his take on the scene, but this is where it's important to distinguish the author from the text. I don't read books to be told what The Point was after the fact. I don't particularly respect things like J.K. Rowling fiating that Dumbledore is gay in an interview a year after the series ends, as opposed to doing so in her books. (Of course, it's possible that Rowling didn't do anything to show Dumbledore's sexuality because she doesn't see it as relevant to the story, but if that's the case she wouldn't feel any need to comment on the subject ex poste facto.) And this all goes double with franchise material, because Bane doesn't belong to Karpshyn, so outside of licensed works Karpshyn's just a fan sharing his interpretation. His is no more a "canon" perspective than, say, McEwok's.

That's why I respect the Sithspawn out of Matt Stover for his policy of not commenting on the text. Reading is an act of interpretation, after all. (Also, the later treatment of Vergere in LotF supports my point: I highly doubt that Mr. Stover intended her to be a Sith Chicken. But that's what Denning made of her because there wasn't really anything preventing that interpretation from being realized by a later work.)

 

Regarding Krayt's return being a "shock", personally I don't actually feel that's the case at all. That scene with the three holocrons has sat with me ever since we first saw it back in Legacy #5 as authors always have a reason why they include particular things. At the time, Andeddu and Nihilus both seemed fairly pointless, but then look what happened with Andeddu? Nihilus though hasn't just not had anything come of his appearance, we haven't even seen Krayt reflect on the idea, which is odd in a "JO is deliberately not mentioning it again" kind of way.

What strikes me re-reading everything since his death is that, actually, nobody knows the truth of how Krayt died apart from one person. Wyyrlok. In Cade's case, he thinks Krayt died on Had Abbaddon. But Cade is wrong. Whether or not Wyyrlok killed him later on, what Cade thinks happened, Krayt did not die when he fell off that cliff. Wyyrlok knows that Krayt is dead because he killed him on Korriban. What have the last twenty or so issues been doing? Showing Wyyrlok digging himself a hole. Dead or not, the truth has to come out eventually, but repeatedly through the past year we've had the "Is Krayt dead?" question come back again, and again, and again. Yet at every turn Cade hasn't been able to prove it to people because he can't prove a death that didn't happen.

Which means Krayt's return wouldn't be a shock for anybody except the one person who is so confident that his master is dead that he decided to go and position himself as the new Dark Lord of the Sith. Ironically, for Cade, learning Krayt didn't die on Had Abaddon actually wouldn't be anything other than the truth as we already know it. Only for Wyyrlok would it mean he's been very, very naive. And for the reader? We've subliminally been getting asked "Is he dead?" so many times over the past year as to introduce doubt when his body vanishes.

At the same time though, whatever shape it could or could not take, I don't think Krayt would come back and publicly announce "I have returned!" for the very same reason as what we've been seeing: Wyyrlok has spent the last twenty issues consolidating his control. Krayt's body is gone, so whether he's a ghost, has possessed someone, is in the armour, whatever, he won't be able to prove he's really who he says he is. So if he has taken over someone, I'm actually dubious whether we, the readers, will even necessarily be told that straight away.

We didn't realise the Lich King had taken over Arthas until a looong way into Warcraft 3. Krayt's had months to stew on what happened, so I expect if he comes back he'd recognise building the One Sith was a mistake. That's why I don't put it entirely past them having done a last minute redemption--not that I want to see that--as I expect being betrayed by his closest was a massive wake up call. So while I don't want to see him "redeemed" and return as a Jedi ghost, I don't put it past him coming back from the dead with his mission unchanged: to bring peace to the galaxy. Only now he may realise that the threat to peace is the very Sith Order he built.

So, like Cade who still won't accept he's a Jedi, I could picture Krayt no longer thinking of himself as a Sith. One is light, the other is dark, but both would become "outside the establishment", both recognising the threat to the galaxy is the Sith War that is about to explode.

Wasn't saying that he did; I was only referring to the moments when they were having their mind battle right after he jumped into her.

 

Vos got vaped in the ROTF comics during Order 66 and then was brought back, was he not?

There is a mystery to this, if you want their to be or not. Do you honestly believe that the mystery of Krayt's missing body will be wrapped up next issue by showing that Wyyrlok had him in another room? I think not.

Yes, its the last visage of Bane passing through her system. I don't think Bane would identify himself as Darth Zannah after everything that was written in that book, after how much Bane is shown to respect his Rule of Two. There would be no reason for that deception.

 

The issue I see with Wyyrlok just having moved the body somewhere else is: why leave the armour? Surely that's even more incriminating than just leaving the tank empty and telling people "Err... Lord Krayt must have, um, got up to stretch his muscles. Yes, that's it; he's gone for a short walk." By leaving the armour hanging there, it's damning should anyone peak through the door, and he already knows that Stryfe has demanded to see the body, so he must be aware of the growing chance as time goes on of another of Krayt's lackies demanding to see the body in stasis, too. The fact Nihl has done precisely this just makes Wyyrlok look like an idiot if he really has moved the body.

If it had still been Saarai on guard duty? I could buy the idea that he'd stripped Krayt naked and buried the body, as I don't put it past Saarai being in on the whole lie as she's got no reason to be loyal to Krayt as she wasn't even a fully fledged One Sith when he died. But since Talon, who is one of if not the most fanatical servants Krayt had, it seems stupid of Wyyrlok to tell her to stand outside the door knowing full well that if she looked inside she'd see iron clad proof that Krayt was no longer where Wyyrlok had said he was.

"Talon, please guard the door here. Nobody goes in. Lord Krayt must be allowed to rest."

"Um, Lord Wyyrlok... why am I guarding an empty room?"

Short of Wyyrlok trying to resurrect Krayt's zombified corpse as some kind of undead marionette using some Sith sorcery he's found in one of Andeddu's musty old books, I can't think of many things that he'd chance removing the body from stasis for. A clone? Take a skin sample. Someone walking inside and realising the body isn't breathing? Well, yeah, that's a risk, but an empty room is worse, and an empty room that has his clothes hanging up is even worse still, as he never took his armour off. "He doesn't need it anymore as he's healed," could be something that will actually be the case, but Wyyrlok isn't going to say "Lord Krayt is alive and well. He doesn't need his armour anymore." as the very next thing someone is going to say is "Well, where is he then?"