Who actually ordered the clone army?(My theory)

I agree that it was Sifo-Dyas that ordered the clone army UNDER the direction of Palpatine. If you remember in AOTC, when Obi-wan asked Yoda and Mace if the council authorized the clones Mace said NO! I believe that Yoda and Mace found out that Sifo-Dyas was a sith and either Yoda or Mace killed him. Then after hearing of his death(Dyas), Palpatine recruited Dooku as a apprentice. Palpatine knew of Dooku's leaving of the jedi order which would have made it easier for him to recruit him. With that, it's possible that Sifo-Dyas was part of the jedi "group" that left with Dooku. I do not believe that Dooku knew of the clones. Why would he waste so much time putting together these allies against the jedi just for them to be destroyed by the clones? At the end of AOTC, Dooku tells Palpatine/Sidious that "The War has begun". I think that he is under the impression that it is the war between the "seperatists" and the jedi. Remember that he seemed suprised and said something like "how could the jedi have come up with an army so quickly."

Look at ROTJ. Palpatine told Vader(Anakin) to bring Luke before him. He pretty much encouraged Luke to fight Vader with his anger to turn him to the darkside(that's what Vader thought). BUT he(Vader) didn't expect Palpatine to KILL him. So, He tells Sifo-Dyas what the plan is for the clones but not Dooku. As I am thinking, it is more likely that Palpatine got Sifo-Dyas to order the clones and then killed him thus getting Dooku to side with him NOT telling him about the clones.

Any thoughts or comments?

Sorry so long on this message.

 

1. Mace doesn't believe the Sith have returned in TPM. Since Sifo-Dyas placed the order around the time of TPM, this would mean Mace would have had to be aware that Sifo-Dyas was a Sith at the same time he believed them to be extinct.

2. This would mean Sifo-Dyas, Maul and Sidious were all Sith at the same time. This goes against the rule of two.

3. Dooku is working for Sidious and Sidious is trying to start a war to consolidate his power. Dooku was lying when he pretended not to know about the clones.

Since Jango, the template for the clones, said he was hired by a man named Tyranus, and Dooku is answering to the name Tyranus, it's logical, at this point, to figure that Dooku placed the order for the clones at Palpatine's behest and used the name of a recently deceased Jedi in case anyone came around asking questions. He was also in a position to erase Kamino from the Jedi Archives before he left the order.

 

Why would he waste so much time putting together these allies against the jedi just for them to be destroyed by the clones?

Because that's what his master told him to do. It's all an elaborate scheme by Palpatine to create the war so he can eventually declare himself emperor. What does Dooku care about the Trade Federation's ships and droids, he only cares about the Sith Order which he is apart of

Remember that he seemed suprised and said something like "how could the jedi have come up with an army so quickly."

I think you can tell that Dooku is very insincere when he says this. He knows full well where the army came from. He recruited Jango to be the template for the army

"I was recruited by a man called Tyrannus"

Tyrannus is Dooku, we know this because Palpatine called Dooku this at the end of the movie

 

I agree with the idea that Dooku made the order for the clone army. Jango said, Tyrannus recruited him, Dooku answers to this name, it's only logical to suspect Dooku

 

1. Mace doesn't believe the Sith have returned in TPM. Since Sifo-Dyas placed the order around the time of TPM, this would mean Mace would have had to be aware that Sifo-Dyas was a Sith at the same time he believed them to be extinct.

Yoda said that "the dark side clouds everything". Yoda is the greatest of the jedi so if he isn't aware of the siths' return how can Mace make the assumption that they couldn't return without them knowing it?

2. This would mean Sifo-Dyas, Maul and Sidious were all Sith at the same time. This goes against the rule of two.

This WAS the rule of two when the sith and jedi against each other. But you have to realize that the sith may have changed the rules!

3. Dooku is working for Sidious and Sidious is trying to start a war to consolidate his power. Dooku was lying when he pretended not to know about the clones.

I think that Sidious tricked Dooku into pulling all these groups together. Sidious obviously has plans that Dooku doesn't know about.

Since Jango, the template for the clones, said he was hired by a man named Tyranus, and Dooku is answering to the name Tyranus, it's logical, at this point, to figure that Dooku placed the order for the clones at Palpatine's behest and used the name of a recently deceased Jedi in case anyone came around asking questions. He was also in a position to erase Kamino from the Jedi Archives before he left the order.

I have to agree that Jango was recruited by Tyranus but when Obi-wan was giving his report to Mace and Yoda, he said that the Kaminoans said that Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the Army. According to Obi-wan, Sifo-Dyas died ALMOST ten years prior, so how could Dooku use his(Sifo-Dyas) name if he wasn't dead yet?
Dooku wasn't the only one who had access to the jedi files. If Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clones he would erased the files too. Also, you have to imagine the possibilty that Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clones and THEN the Kaminoans NEEDED a host--------Jango. Therefore, you can say Dooku DID recruit Jango for the cloning job.

 

This WAS the rule of two when the sith and jedi against each other. But you have to realize that the sith may have changed the rules!

So basically you're saying your theory is right only when you disregard a well established rule

Yea that's a good theory

We've never seen anything to suggest the rule has been changed, because it hasn't. It would make no sense to go against the rule of two, it's the way it's always been done. Saying they may have changed the rules is a huge load of BS. You have no evidence to back up such a claim

The Sith learned long ago that having more then 2 Sith at any time results in a power struggle within the Sith ranks. If it's one thing Palpatine is not is stupid. He would never disregard such a rule because it wouldn't be a safe move for him or his plans

 

The Sith learned long ago that having more then 2 Sith at any time results in a power struggle within the Sith ranks. If it's one thing Palpatine is not is stupid. He would never disregard such a rule because it wouldn't be a safe move for him or his plans

Ok, so what was Palpatine's plans if Luke HAD turned? Would he have killed Vader? In my opinion, Vader was stronger. Would Vader still have killed Palpatine if Luke joined him? There would have been three. hmmmmm

So basically you're saying your theory is right only when you disregard a well established rule

I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, but it could be possible. Just theories.

 

Ok, so what was Palpatine's plans if Luke HAD turned? Would he have killed Vader? In my opinion, Vader was stronger. Would Vader still have killed Palpatine if Luke joined him? There would have been three. hmmmmm

"Fulfill your destiny, and TAKE YOUR FATHER'S PLACE at my side"

Yes he would have gotten rid of Vader, I know this because he says so. So there would have been TWO. Luke was stronger, otherwise he couldn't have beaten Vader

I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, but it could be possible. Just theories.

Theories should be based on reality, not unfounded speculation

 

He didn't beat Vader. He cut his hand off. Vader didn't beat Luke. He cut his hand off. They both lost battles and in my opinion, neither won the war. Luke backed off Vader and gave up by throwing his saber down. You could look at it this way.....there was still dissention within the sith ranks. Vader killed another sith(Palpatine) for trying to get another to join him. Vader wasn't even dead and he's already looking for a replacement.

 

Dooku was the one who ordered the army. The movie makes this pretty clear.

 

He didn't beat Vader. He cut his hand off. Vader didn't beat Luke. He cut his hand off. They both lost battles and in my opinion, neither won the war. Luke backed off Vader and gave up by throwing his saber down. You could look at it this way.....there was still dissention within the sith ranks. Vader killed another sith(Palpatine) for trying to get another to join him. Vader wasn't even dead and he's already looking for a replacement.

That's great and all, but it didn't have much to do with what I said

 

You have to admit there's a whole lotta deception going on between Palpatine,Dooku and company.

I mean Palpatine betrayed Nute Gunray in TPM and is using him again in AOTC to further his goals.(Talk about weak-minded)

I don't think Dooku is fully aware of Palpy's machinations either. By this time Palpatine is plotting to enlist Anakin as his ultimate apprentice, in addition to planning galactic conquest. I believe Dooku physically ordered the clone army at the behest of Palpatine.

 

I dont believe, Sipho Dias was a sith or that he ordered the Clone Army. I believe Sipho Dias was killed by Count Dooku or possible Sidious, and his name and character were used to creat a Diversion.. Let the Jedi believe that Sipho Dias did all this meanwhile, Dooku and Sidious and Jengo are ready to take over the Galaxy.

Remember what Yoda Said.. Lies, deceit, creating misturst are the ways of the darkside..

 

". I do not believe that Dooku knew of the clones."

He obviously does. Jango was recruited by Tyrannus, a.k.a. Dooku.

 

I don't think Palpatine/Sidious cares about the "rule of two." He'll do whatever it takes to take control of the galaxy. Some rule made a long time ago probably doesn't matter to him.

 

Well he wanted Luke to kill Vader so he would have ended up with 2 anyway.

 

I think Darth Tyranus (Dooku) was the Sifo-Dyas imposter who ordered the Clone Army.

 

Count Dooku is Sifo-Dyas

They're the same guy. He changed his name when he left the Jedi.

Thats what I think.

 

I don't think Dooku is Syfo-Dias, I agree with jedifollower. What I can't explain is why Jango says he has been incharged by Tyranus...

Anyway, do you think Lucas will answer to the question "who is Syfo-Dias" in Ep III? I've the feeling he won't.....

 

1. Mace doesn't believe the Sith have returned in TPM. Since Sifo-Dyas placed the order around the time of TPM, this would mean Mace would have had to be aware that Sifo-Dyas was a Sith at the same time he believed them to be extinct.

Mace is the one who ordered the clone army. He's in cahoots with Tyranus and Co.

http://www.starwarsdotcom.com/star_wars/m_darkjedi.html

He only pretends not to believe the Sith are back to throw everyone off. Oldest trick in the book, but he did it well.

 

Thanks for that link Annbri. I needed a good laugh!

I'm not sure who ordered the army (let's face it, none of us know any more than each other) but my money's on either Dooku or Sidious posing as Sifo-Dyas.

Actually, mainly Sidious. Wasn't the line originally going to be that it was "ordered by a Master Sidious", then they had to change it to something similar for lip synch? ?

 

Dooku just used the name Sifo Dyas to order the clones so that the Jedi if they ever get to Kamino and asked who made this order, Lama Su would tell them the truth as he knows it and the aswer would be Master Sifo Dyas.

So Dooku was covering his trail, first he deleted Kamino from the archives ( or he used someone, it isn t important who)
second, he used a fake name to not draw attention to himself.

And to make things 100% sure he told Jango his name was Darth Tyrannus, if in some case the Jedi would capture Jango and asked him who recruited him.
Ofcourse, Jango may know Tyrannus's real name but lied to Obi Wan, to make the Jedi THINK. What? Who??.....

The Jedi are in a great doubt now, and Dooku knows this, that's why he told Obi Wan about a Sith controling the Senate, to complicate things even more for the Jedi. They don' t know if Dooku was telling a lie or maybe not...

If Dooku used his real name to order the clones, then the Jedi would figure out that Dooku is on both sides, not just a leader of the Separatists. Now, the Jedi just know that Dooku is leading the separatists and that some Jedi ordered a clone army without the approval of the council.

That's why the Jedi mind's are clouded, behind all this political games the darkside is rising but they just can't figure this puzzle out, and when they do it will be too late....

Sifo Dyas is dead, he won t be in episode III, he's underground now, and Lucas will make all this clear in about 20-30 seconds when ep III gets out...

 

"They're the same guy. He changed his name when he left the Jedi. "

If that were the case why do the jedi know who Sifo-Dyas is ?

 

Hi everybody ! This being a totally new experience for me, please be gentle...

Dooku just used the name Sifo Dyas to order the clones so that the Jedi if they ever get to Kamino and asked who made this order, Lama Su would tell them the truth as he knows it and the aswer would be Master Sifo Dyas.

So Dooku was covering his trail, first he deleted Kamino from the archives ( or he used someone, it isn t important who)
second, he used a fake name to not draw attention to himself.

Based on the assumption that it was Dooku who ordered the clones, this makes a lot of sense; I would have done the same !

And to make things 100% sure he told Jango his name was Darth Tyrannus, if in some case the Jedi would capture Jango and asked him who recruited him.

For this one, I just think that Dooku used his Sith name and had nothing to hide from Jango.

Ofcourse, Jango may know Tyrannus's real name but lied to Obi Wan, to make the Jedi THINK. What? Who??.....

Anyway, Jango must know that Dooku is Darth Tyrannus since Dooku is leading the separatists and supervising the creation of the army of robots.

The Jedi are in a great doubt now, and Dooku knows this, that's why he told Obi Wan about a Sith controling the Senate, to complicate things even more for the Jedi. They don' t know if Dooku was telling a lie or maybe not...

If Dooku used his real name to order the clones, then the Jedi would figure out that Dooku is on both sides, not just a leader of the Separatists. Now, the Jedi just know that Dooku is leading the separatists and that some Jedi ordered a clone army without the approval of the council.

That's why the Jedi mind's are clouded, behind all this political games the darkside is rising but they just can't figure this puzzle out, and when they do it will be too late....

Absolutely ! And thanks for clearing this up for me. But I still can't figure out if it was in the plans of Darth Sidious to have the war between the Robots and the Clones... or is he just building a situation from which he can be given full control of an (invincible) army and thus create the Empire in full legality ?

Sifo Dyas is dead, he won t be in episode III, he's underground now, and Lucas will make all this clear in about 20-30 seconds when ep III gets out...

 

Dooku was formaly a jedi master named Sifo-Dias. He took a padawan (Qui-Gon Jin). After Maul died Sidious/Palpatine needed an apprentice so he seduced Sifo-Dias to the dark side of the force and given the sith name Darth Tyranus ("Turned to the Dark Side Dooku has" yoda). He was ordered to recruit someone to be the host for the clone army (see Star Wars bounty hunter) and while he was still a member off the jedi order go to the archieves and erase kamino from the map. Tyrannus then fakes his own death takes the name Count Dooku and goes off to rally systems to seperate from the rebublic and the rest is history. Thats my theory anyway