PT Who is more powerful ?

I have been watching videos of who's more powerful, Maul or Dooku, most say Dooku. Maul defeated Grievous and captured Count Dooku, so it makes me think, who do you think is more powerful.

 

?when did that happen?

 

Mauls fighting style is way more difficult than Dooku's. Dooku uses form 2 which is thought to be one of the most elegant forms of lightsaber combat however it is quite difficult to learn it. Granted form 7 is the most physically demanding and the hardest to learn. Dooku also held off attacks from Obi Wan and Anakin and then survived fighting against his old master Grand Master Yoda and his form was outstanding and it was more refined than Mauls.

Both of them received training from a highly rated sith/Jedi however I think that Yoda's training is much more thorough than Sidious' training as Yoda's a boss. At an early age Obi wan defeated Darth Maul however when he was older and far more wiser he still couldn't defeat Dooku. The bad thing about Dooku is that he doesn't survive after being chopped in half unlike Maul.

Maul is the stronger being however Dooku is the better dueller in my opinion.

 

Powerful? If we're talking raw strength, then probably Maul, but if we're talking about skill and power in Teh Fursh, then Dooku's years of experience definitely give him an edge

That said, Maul definitely had the potential to go well beyond that level of power imo

Oh god, I feel like I'm applying Dragon Ball logic to Star Wars now. What am I doing

Btw I just had some fried chicken like an hour or so ago. It was pretty good. Little greasier than I'd like. That's always the biggest downside. But I like the crunchy bits. The mashed potato was a little cold this time, for some reason. Was I supposed to slit the film over the mash? I.... don't think so? I didn't anyway. But I mean, eh, it was still fine enough. It's just a little thingy of mashed potato, so. I dunno, I might order sushi at some point soon

Ok, first person to respond decides. There's a sushi place I like that has a nice maki combo, and I usually get one more roll along with it. Should I go for an Alaska roll, or like a spicy crab roll?

 

There's nothing that supports the idea that Maul is more powerful than Tyranus, but there's plently that supports the opposite.

 

@Seagoat Ooh I get to decide one of the managers fate! should I be nice or should I be mean? In my opinion I would Have the Spicy crab roll however searching up the Alaska roll sounds very nice as its deep fried. If you want spice then go for the spicy crab roll however if you want deep fried breadcrumb wrapped crab with mayo and cucumber than go for the Alaska. Its up to you, i have only had the spicy crab roll. but yeah.

 

In the Canon Darth Maul Comics.

Clone War Era, after AOTC and before ROTS

 

Maul didn't capture Dooku, his soldiers did.

 

From a certain point of view.


If 501st Legion, captured a Jedi under Vader's command or with Vader, all credit would go to Vader.

 

These kind of questions really should only exist in certain fandoms, like Pokemon, Dragonball Z (like ze-goat mentioned) and lesser extent something like X-Men.

But to answer it, Dooku:

reasons:

- it is said only he could match Mace in combat (now probably ABCDEGFHILK canon or whatever) 'in skills with a lightsaber, he had no match' Jocasta Nu
- he stood his own against Yoda and managed to escape
- he is more experienced than Maul
- It took the chosen one to kill him
- he took down Kenobi twice, Kenobi took down Maul twice (if you count Rebels)
- he used Sith lightning effortlessly
- his lightsaber skills are meant for dueling specifically which means if Maul tried any Teras Kasi (wushu) type kicks with him, he'd be missing feet.
- he was well regarded in the Jedi, and was the most grieved of the lost twenty

etc, etc,


oh and @Seagoat the Alaska Roll

 

Gotta give it to Count Dracula.

 

No, having minions outnumber someone is not the same as being more powerful.

 

I didn't say Mail was more powerful, just sparking a conversation and civil debate.

Here's what I think about my own question.
1. There's a lot of StarWars Canon that would make you think, Dooku is stronger.
2. Dooku was just a place holder, while Mail was meant to be his true Sith Apprentice, until Maul failed Palatine
3. Maul did defeat Jedi killer Grievous and captured Dooku. Never said he defeated Dooku, but he does get credit for capturing him. Just like generals get credit for winning battles, even though their troops did most of the physical fighting.
4. Maul was stronger in the Darkside of the Force, compared to Dooku.
5. It was said that the clone wars was making Dooku weaker



In saying all of this, I think Dooku is stronger, but I don't know who will win in a fight between them. Styles and matchups is major factor.
Example: Dooku easily disposed of Obi-Wan every time they met, Anakin killed Dooku and Obi-Wan beat Dark Anakin.

 

I thought the question was who was more powerful between the two.

Both were true Sith apprentices, and if Sidious thought that Maul was more powerful or had more potential than Dooku, he would replace one for the other or at least pit both against each other, instead of keeping Dooku, excommunicating Maul and using him as nothing but bait to get to Talzin.

Defeating Grievous is not exactly an extraordinary feat. He was nothing but a cyborg who got some lightsaber training from Dooku.

But considering how Dooku was captured, it's irrelevant to the point of the thread. Hondo also captured Dooku. The droids on Geonosis beat the Jedi. Are they more powerful? No. They were simply outnumbered them.

That's not what the movies show.

Who said it and based on what?

 

I can't tell if this is serious

 

And it took quite the army to do it as well, after Dooku had defeated a whole cadre of Nightbrothers including Brother Viscus.

 

I think Dooku, at least in the movies. He was able to survive against Yoda, and Yoda-Palpatine were approximately equal match. Palpatine was Maul’s master, so I don’t think Maul was at that level. But he seems to have become a lot stronger in TCW so idk.

 

Dooku but he tended to lose his head at times. I'm kind of split on Maul.

 

Dooku was pretty hands off too.

Getting a bounty hunter...to use another bounty hunter to his dirty work.

 

That’s witty as. I can’t think of anything to add

 

The reason why X beats Y sometimes, is because of circumstantial and emotional situations, luck / bad luck, or even the will of the Force plays a huge factor.

Matt Martin from Lucasfilm confirms it.

If you understand that, then it's also easier to understand how the duels in Star Wars works.

So how do you decide when this ''special circumstances'' happens in the duels?

When Maul killed Qui-Gon, Kenobi's master, it was almost certain that Kenobi needed to win that fight, with any way possible. Because you can't kill Kenobi due to Kenobi being the main character, and you can't end the movie with the bad guy winning.

What we know about the duels betwen Maul vs. Qui-Gon + Obi-Wan;

• Maul was equally as skilled as Qui-Gon + Obi-Wan combined,
• Qui-Gon was stronger than Obi-Wan, and still got killed,
• Obi-Wan tried to defeat Maul but he too, got disarmed and lost the fight, confirmed that Maul was stronger than even rage amped Kenobi.

So how did Maul lose, when he was so superior against his opponents?

• Overconfidence of Maul,
• Surprise factor via already defeated Qui-Gon's weapon, and Obi-Wan's amplification due to Qui-Gon's death.

Even Star Wars Databank states that Maul ''toyed'' with Obi-Wan after defeating him.

If the argument is that Kenobi was weaker in TPM in comparison with AotC, that's wrong as well.

Qui-Gon already said Kenobi is ready to be a Jedi Knight in TPM, and Nick Gillard also states that both TPM Kenobi and AotC Kenobi are in the same tier 7.

Obi-Wan only reaches the tier 8 in RotS, not in AotC. Both TPM Kenobi and AotC Kenobi are the tier 7.

While AotC Kenobi didn't exactly get stomped by Dooku, both the novelization and the script says that AotC Kenobi managed to drove Dooku back for a while;

What if Maul faced the same opponent, AotC Kenobi, or even a better version, a late Clone Wars (TCW S4) Kenobi?

Maul managed to ''take down'' TCW S4 Kenobi, despite Maul being out of the business for about ten years.

So in comparison with taking down AotC Kenobi, Maul's feat is even better than Dooku's feat in AotC.

Without the circumstantial differences, both Maul and Dooku were capable of defeating Kenobi.

Then how do we decide who is better than who?

I think we can examine them in 3 different categories;
-Their Potential in the Sith.
-Their skills with a saber.
-Their knowledge of the Force.

Category 1: Potential in the Sith

I believe Maul has an edge against Dooku in here, because we know that Sidious knew the existence and the potential of Dooku around and before the TPM timeline, yet Sidious never thought Dooku as his first apprentice, despite Dooku being much older than Maul.

Sidious never really considered Dooku as his apprentice until the ''seemingly'' death of Maul in TPM.

Not only that, Sidious directly states that Maul was a ''loss'' while Dooku wasn't.

Another superior portrayal of Maul; Dooku states that Maul is a ''Great'' Sith Lord.

And what Maul thinks about Dooku in return?

Talzin states that, Sidious even betrayed her, because he was impressed with Maul's potential as a Sith.

I think Maul has a clear edge in this category.

Next one:

Category 2: Skill with a Saber

Both Maul and Dooku were trained perfectly well in the Jedi Arts, Sidious trained Maul, and even said he is ''well trained'' as a Sith Lord, while Dooku was the Jedi apprentice of Yoda, and trained Qui-Gon, who trained Kenobi in return.

Before going into the detail, lets not forget that Nick Gillard, the director of the fighting scenes in PT movies, states that both Maul and Dooku are in the same tier 8,

Which is superior to the very skilled Jedi Knights such as TPM/AotC Kenobi (tier 7), and Kit Fisto (tier 7), possibly Qui-Gon (he never said which tier Qui-Gon was in), so he describes the tier 8 and tier 9 as ''cheat'' levels, so not many duelists and Force users are on this tier.

So either way, even if you think Maul is superior, or Dooku is superior, the difference must be closer than the difference between a tier 7 and tier 8, or a tier 8 and tier 9, so this is a really close comparison between the two tier 8 fighters, and it could go either way.

Maul and Sidious are the top 2 duelists of the Banite Sith Order;

We've a canon list that states that both Maul and Dooku are in the top 5 red saber users of all saga, however, Maul (no.3) takes place higher than Dooku (no.4).



---Source: Star Wars Absolutely Everything You Need to Know (2015)

If you are wondering, Matt Martin from Lucasfilm confirms that the list is based on order, however, the lower ranked fighters, can still win against the higher ranked fighters, so it doesn't guarantee anything.

So as I said earlier, it's really a close call, not only based on Gillard's tier system, even the official rankings doesn't guarantee anyone's victory against the other.

Between these two fighters, Dooku uses Makashi, which usually gives an advantage in saber duels, because it's a really old saber style, which created for dueling only in the ancient times, it doesn't really help against the other kind of opponents or when it comes to deflecting the blaster shots.

Which also helps Dooku, because Dooku usually relies on his balance and his leverage, instead of physical skills, he doesn't want to waste any unnecessary energy, both because of his own preference, and because of his old age.

Maul is the first thing that comes to mind when it comes to ''skilled duelist'' in Star Wars.



---Source: Star Wars Destiny - Spark of Hope (2019)

While Maul is the master at multiple fighting styles; like Juyo, Niman, or Ataru. Juyo alone, requires multiple saber style mastery,

It has been stated that Maul is ''too powerful'' for even Post-AotC (TCW S5) Kenobi.

In addition to that, he has the styles like Niman, makes his overall saber style perfect, because while Juyo focuses on physicality and offense by using the Force while moving, it can make him vulnerable to fatigue and the other Force attacks. Niman balances this weakness due to its high level of usage of the Force powers over the blade work. It uses the Force to defend and block, and even attack during the duels.


---- Source: Star Wars Destiny - Spark of Hope (2019)

While Dooku's makashi's weakness remains in physicality, and raw strength based attacks, raw kinetic power based attacks, it's actually hard to compansate it without using the other saber styles, and Dooku only uses makashi, he perfected it and he is possibly better than any makashi user in the history,

Luminara Unduli states the huge difference between Ventress's Jar'Kai makashi and Dooku's makashi.

However, despite his mastery, Dooku is still vulnerable to the usual weakness of makashi (kinetic power), despite his perfect mastery of the ancient style which was produced for saber duels specifically.

However, his knowledge of the other fighting styles, also help Dooku a lot in his saber duels, especially against Ataru users like Kenobi or Yoda.

Because he fenced with his former Jedi apprentice Qui-Gon ''thousands of times'', both knew each other style's perfectly, however, Kenobi and Yoda are not really an expert on Dooku's makashi, while Dooku knew every weakness of Kenobi's and Yoda's Ataru style, which actually gave an advantage to Dooku in their duel, whenever he faces with them.

While its true that Dooku's mastery of his makashi (produced for saber dueling) is the main reason for his success against Kenobi, we should also not forget about Dooku's inside knowledge about Kenobi's style, due to knowing and training Qui-Gon. If it was a Qui-Gon vs. Dooku match up, Qui-Gon could probably do better than Kenobi.

Due to knowing Dooku's style very well, much better than Kenobi could ever know. But this match-up remained as Dooku vs. Kenobi only, and Dooku used this advantage against Kenobi very well, whenever he dueled with him.

These weaknesses was obvious when Dooku fought against Anakin in the Clone Wars, and Savage Opress, they defeated Dooku.

Savage Opress alone is a threat to Dooku.

While Maul is superior to Savage Opress.

Another weakness is that when he faces someone who is very unpredictable, such as Quinlan Vos, Dooku failed against him and lost the duel twice.

Which is why, Dooku's knowledge of the other saber styles, (such as when he knows Kenobi's and Yoda's) is very important, but when he faces someone who is very unpredictable, that might be a problem for Dooku.

While Maul doesn't have these weaknesses, his only weakness remains to be very overconfident, and makes mistakes sometimes. While Maul perfected his Juyo style, with the addition of Niman, his weakness only remains in his own overconfidence (like toying with TPM Kenobi), while Dooku's weakness remains stylisticly only, against the kinetic power based fighters like Savage Opress, or against the very unpredictable opponents like Quinlan Vos, which he lost twice.

However, against the tier 9 fighters such as Yoda or Sidious, and you can even include Mace Windu to this list, (bordering to tier 9 according to Gillard), they both performed very well.



Although Dooku's success against Yoda, was also related to Yoda himself, who wasn't going all out against his former Jedi padawan. And he was fighting differently than he fought against Sidious, he didn't want to hurt or destroy Dooku,

While Yoda tried to destroy Sidious.

Still Dooku's makashi mastery and his inside knowledge about Yoda's Ataru, worked well, and he managed hold his own against Yoda before escaping.



And Maul takes both Mace Windu and Aayla Secura at the same time in a duel. And he kicks Aayla while dueling with Mace Windu.

If you are wondering, Son of Dathomir comic book is entirely canon.

For Maul to state that an opponent like Mace Windu isn't enough, he adds Aayla Secura to that, and then states that it's a ''fair fight'', it is a very high level dueling feat.

What I believe is that it's even better than Dooku holding his own against an holding back Yoda.

Kicking Sidious in a duel alone is a very very high level feat as well, you could never see Dooku kicking Yoda in a duel.



Or, Maul and his apprentice, Savage Opress, putting up a ''better fight'' than the Jedi Council did against Sidious, is also an incredibly high level dueling feat.

Another impressive high level dueling feats are; we can add Dooku dueling with Ventress + 2 Nightsisters, Dooku loses that fight due to lack of his eyes, he couldn't see his opponents. Which tired him more than a usual duel, and he barely survives with his Force powers in the end, while Maul casually takes 3 Inquisitors at the same time, kicks them one by one, and shows his superiority against the 3 Inquisitors.


He even shows his superiority against SWR Ahsoka, and before that TCW S7 Ahsoka;

Maul's portrayal as a fighter was superior to SWR Ahsoka.

To balance the powers of the two teams, Maul, the strongest of the group, goes with the weakest Ezra, while the second strongest Ahsoka and the third strongest Kanan goes together on Malachor in different two groups.

And again, another official source that states Maul's obvious superiority against Ahsoka,

If you are wondering, SWR Ahsoka's growth was spiritual, her skills were the same level with TCW S7.

And both Maul and Dooku have been stated to be a ''threat'' to Sidious, if they were allowed to have their own Sith apprentices.

I believe Maul has the edge in this category, if he isn't overconfident or toying with his opponent, although as I said at the beginning, it's very close. No matter which side you think is better.

The author of Son of Dathomir comic book, Jeremy Barlow, also stated that Maul can win 7/10 against Dooku,

There won't be a clear victor like 9/10 or 10/10.

Next category:

Category 3: Knowledge of the Force

This might be the category that Dooku can have the edge, most likely because of Force lightning advantage, while Maul blocked Force lightning against Sidious.



It's still an ability that could help Dooku to get the advantage between these two fighters. Jeremy Barlow also believes that Dooku has the edge on the Force powers against Maul.

However, Telekinesis mastery of these two Sith Lords, which is the most common usage of the Force powers, is really really close. And with the latest feats of Maul from the Clone Wars Season 7, Maul might have the edge in Telekinesis against Dooku.

Both Dooku and Maul, overpowered a late Clone Wars Kenobi by using the Force, however, before Dooku choking Kenobi, it has been stated that Dooku ''cheated'' by using the superbattle droids in the novel. Otherwise he couldn't accomplish that feat. Still, he managed to Force push Kenobi in their duel, which is also a very high level Force feat, as well as overpowering Ventress after showing his superiority in the duel by driving Ventress back in the entire time.

Maul too, Force choked a late Clone Wars Kenobi, when he find the chance, just like Dooku did. And even slammed him into the wall on Florrum, even when Kenobi was amped due to Adi Gallia's death, and then he even KOed Kenobi for a while with a powerful Force push in their duel on Florrum.



Maul also easily Force choked powerful Force users like Inquisitors. And he send TCW S7 Ahsoka flying with a Force push, who is powerful enough to stop a flying Space Shuttle by using the Force.

Maul also Force pulled a Space Shuttle, from a long distance even when he was wounded, and throw it in front of the pirates, in order to stop them.

Dooku's one of the best Force feats is lifting giant obelisk stones,



and overpowering Ventress, however his Force defenses doesn't look like as good as Maul's, due to getting Force choked by Savage Opress, and losing to TCW Kenobi's Force push in the Legends, and getting Force choked by Sidious via hologram.

With the recent feats, I can say that Maul is slightly superior to Dooku in Telekinesis, due to destroying multiple building size Hyperdrive generators of a Star Destroyer;



And before, that Maul was single handedly killing a small army of the Clone troopers, without even using a saber.

As for their prediction and Force sense abilities, I believe Maul also has the edge, as he was able to sense the future of Anakin Skywalker, which is something that not only Dooku, even Yoda couldn't see it clearly.

Maul's Force powers were so potent that he created a Dark Side nexus at Naboo Palace, where Princess Leia sensed it years after Maul's death.

His survival after TPM was also very impressive, even Sidious was impressed by Maul's dark side power;

It was because of Maul's ''mastery'' of the dark side.

Dooku has the slight edge due to Force lightning, and Maul has the slight edge in Telekinesis, Telepathy and Dark Side potency and Dark side nexus.

And Maul's Force potential was also superior due to seeing things that even Yoda couldn't see, and impressing Sidious with his dark side mastery, and leaving behind a powerful Dark Side energy that even after his death can be felt by the other Force users.

CONCLUSION

• Category 1 - Potential in the Sith: Winner: Maul.
• Category 2 - Skill with a Saber: Winner: Slightly Maul, still very close.
• Category 3 - Knowledge of the Force: Winner: Could go either way, very close.

I think Yoda was holding back against Dooku, my evidence is that if we even go only by the movies, Yoda shouldn't be very comfortable with cutting his former Jedi padawan into pieces, we've seen how troubled Obi-Wan was against Anakin, and also Yoda Force pushed Sidious, and used the Force offensively in his duel with Sidious, send the senate pods back at Sidious.

While he never used the Force offensively against Dooku, never send the objects back at Dooku (except for that Force lightning deflection) by using the Force.

Also, Maul dueled with Sidious and Mace Windu in the Clone Wars, and lost to Sidious after kicking him and forced him back in the bladelock, Sidious needed to use more power to overpower him.

Well, he instructed them and they followed Maul's plan to do it. It's not like they randomly see Dooku and decided to capture him for their leader. Maul showed superior tactical and strategical abilities even when Dooku had superior numbers under his command.

 

would disagree here,

I'd say while still close, the edge would be Dooku, if it was duelling.

 

Which is irrelevant to the argument of who is more powerful between the two. If Sidious thought Maul was more powerful than Dooku, he would take him in again or pit the two against each other. But it's clear that by the time of the Clone Wars Maul was nothing but a shadow of his former self and Dooku was much more worthy (and powerful) as the Sith apprentice. Only Anakin was of interest due to his potential and strength in the Force, yet he still had to beat Dooku if he were to replace him.

There's no point in dissecting this stuff as if it's an RPG. The answer is pretty simple and straightforward.

 

He couldn't take him again because Maul was already trying to deceive Sidious by plotting with Talzin.

Even Sidious said that.
Sidious: ''How unfortunate that you are trying to deceive me''

- Sidious: ''You have become a rival''

It looks like you didn't know that either.

Another reason is that Anakin has a grudge and rivalry with Dooku, since Dooku cut his arm. That's an important factor in Anakin's fall:

--- Palpatine:''He cut off your arm, you wanted revenge''.

He couldn't plot the same by using Maul because there was no same grudge and rivalry between Anakin and Maul, Dooku was needed for Anakin's fall to the dark side.

Also the producers told us Maul wouldn't return to Sidious even if he had the chance.

-The producers said Maul would never fall back in line again, even if he was allowed to return.

So to answer for your assumption that if Maul was stronger he would return to Sidious makes no sense and ''the answer is pretty simple and straightforward''.

 

I get by watching TCW anyway, that if Sidious clicked his fingers and whistled and said 'here boy, you can be my apprentice again' Maul would rejoin him and forget about Talzin in a heartbeat.