Why did Palpatine need Luke at all?

Hey.

If we go with the idea that Vader was still powerful, but more use to the Empire as a symbol, a visible representation of its power, then why would Palpatine need to replace him? I understand that the Sith want the most powerful, but as many have pointed out, Palpatine was more into his Emperor position than his Darth Sidious one. I firmly believe that in the between-trilogy years Palpatine became lax :

1) I do not believe for a single second that ROTS era Palpatine would let anything, even something as apparently insignificant as the Ewoks, jeapordise his plans.

2) Vader was not as powerful as Palpatine, let alone able to defeat him. It stands to reason that the Sith would continue to maximise their potential so that they would remain the strongest. Vader wasn't strong per se, he was the best through lack of competition. Therefore, Palpatine would have no challenger and he could basically chill.

I believe Palpatine repeated Plagueis' mistake (All who have power fear to lose it) to his cost. Why would he spend the time and take the risk to recruit a kid who's downright dangerous? Does he just like the challenge?

 

Younger, powerful, ensuring that Death Stars will continue to be built.

 

If the Emperor ordered Vader to destroy his son, he ran the risk of Vader turning on him. That was a no win situation. If he destroyed Vader he lost his right hand man and would not have anyone to aid him in the fight against the son of Anakin Skywalker.

 

From another post, in another forum, there's speculation that Sidious DID NOT KNOW THE ABILTY TO CHEAT DEATH ... in ROTS, Palpatine states that he does not know the power to cheat death, but that if HE and ANAKIN worked together, they could "discover the secret." it's assumed, the reason Sidious wanted Anakin in the first place was that "the chosen one" was basically 'the force incarnate' and he would find what the Emperor craved -- immortality ... when Vader was left for dead on Mustafar, Anakin lost some of his connection to the force and would never be able to be strong enough to "cheat death." Luke is Anakin before Mustafar, thus, he would, in Palpatine's mind, be strong enough with Palpatine, to find immortality ...

 

Needed the Sith to continue to rule the galaxy. Plus, he sensed something disturbing in Vadar once Luke was brought into the picture. He needed to turn Luke to the dark side for his own survival.

 

I know EU holds no water around here, but according to Dark Empire, Sidious could cheat death, an ability which he claimed to have used several times before his death at Endor.

As for why he needed Luke, I think Palpatine may have wanted Luke more to debilitate the Rebellion than to increase his own power. Luke destroyed the Death Star and singlehandedly destroyed another Imperial war machine at Hoth (the AT-AT he impaled and tossed a bomb into). Then he rescued several other Rebel heroes from Jabba's clutches. Imagine how unsuccesful the Rebellion would have been without Luke. Imagine how much more unsuccesful it would have been with Luke fighting against it.

 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Vader thought he could kill the Emperor and take his spot as of day 1. "All those who gain power, are afraid to lose it". Replacing Vader with Luke not only gets rid of the Vader threat for the time being, but gives the Emperor a younger, easier manipulated and essentially more powerful apprentice. Palpatines no stranger to the apprentice killing his master scene and must have known it was coming.

 

Vader was an old pathetic cripple (compared to Luke), Luke is a young healthy powerful Force user, Palpatine just wanted the upgrade.

 

Darth Vader was a mobile, strategic and highly lethal cripple. So there!





Luke was a terrible duelist and really not that bright, he has some potential though. I think its why Palps didn't mind frying the little sucker.

 

IMHO I think the Emperor was afraid Vader would destroy him, and although a "cripple" Vader was more than qualified. I mean in the end he did in fact destroy the Emperor. Palp tried to manipulate Luke to off Vader for him, and at the same time gain a new asset as stated above.

 

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there?s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he?s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn?t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You?ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no."

--George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, ?Star Wars: The Last Battle,? Vanity Fair, 2005


"He's so overwhelming in that first film, but you get to the point where you say, "Wait a minute, if he's so powerful, why doesn't he run the universe?" He even gets pushed around by the governors! They know the Emperor is the final word, so what happens is the same thing that happens in any corporation: Everybody worries about the top man, they don't worry about his goon. And by the time the Death Star is finished, it gives them the sense that they have a bigger, better suit than Darth Vader. In a standoff between the Death Star and Darth Vader, they have no question about who would win, and it's not this mumbo-jumbo Sith guy. So it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview 2005.

"At this point, Vader?s plan really, now that he knows he?s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the Dark Side and together they?re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn?t been debilitated and now he?s half machine and half man, so he?s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he?s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn?t. Luke is Vader?s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.


"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that. "

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

"The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

 

^WOW^

I hope that answers your question Chameleon102.

Awesome post mjerome3!

 

Ummm...if Anakin was plotting against his master from day 1, then what's there to say that Luke won't take the lightsaber and try to whack off his head the second he turns?

 

Who says he wouldn't? But, Vader was plotting against him since Day 1.

"I'm more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him, and you and I can rule the galaxy...make things the way we want them to be!" - Darth Vader, Episode III - Revenge of the Sith

 

Knowing Luke's potential, it was only wise to try to make him an ally, or to kill him. Leaving Luke to learn the ways of the force and become stronger, and potentially train more Jedi, wasn't even an option to the Emperor. He didn't really need Luke, but he needed to eliminate the growing threat that Luke represented.

 

Yeah good question. On the surface it seems like a bad idea. Especially before the prequals explained some details, when I first watched the OT It irrated me that Palps would take that gamble.

But we all know now and as posts on this thread have said that Vader intended to betray Palps, and Palps possibly needed Luke's power to find a way of cheating death etc, etc.

 

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there?s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he?s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn?t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You?ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no."

--George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, ?Star Wars: The Last Battle,? Vanity Fair, 2005


"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter!"

--Yoda, ESB

So, the Force was an element of the mind, but now it's about how much organic matter a person has? So Luke lost some of his Force ability when he lost his hand?

Does anyone else get the feeling that Lucas is sending us mixed messages?

 

Exactly! Also if you watch TESB DVD, rewatch the scene where Vader talks to Sidious. At this point, Vader knew that Luke was his son so. Sidious wanted Vader to find Luke so that he can kill Luke. But Vader brings up the idea that he can be turned to the DS. At this point Vader and Sidious is actually plotting against each other, but they don't know it. Vader is acting like he is trying to track Luke down to kill him, but in reality he is trying to find him so that he can break the truth to him and turn him to the DS so they can kill Sidious. Sidious wants Vader to find Luke so that Vader can bring Luke before him so that he can make Luke/Vader fight and hopes that Luke would win. Very similar to the beginning of ROTS where Sidious has Anakin/Dooku fight and hoped that Anakin won....which he did.

 

I think he could feel Vaders loaylties Wavering and he though having Vader try and kill him and the knowing Luke couldn't change his father back to good and having to kill him would movie Luke to the Dark side.

 

mjerome already answered the question, why bother discussing further?! Actually, why not?

Here's another thought to inject into this discussion: Palpatine was an extremely selfish person. I think we can all agree on that. He was also old, and conscious that he was not going to last forever. I'd think that Palpatine would not be able to stand the idea of his empire being in the power of anyone with ideas different from his own, so the best way to ensure that the empire would still, in a way, be his even after his death would be to get an apprentice that he could make loyal to him, to carry on his legacy. Vader would have originally been the perfect choice, but Palpatine was no doubt conscious of the fact that Vader would have overthrown him in a second if given the choice. Therefore, disloyal Vader was out.

 

Indeed, it's strange.. I thought Anakin couldn't really do much because he's crippled and damaged by Kenobi. Not because he lost some limbs.

Edit- But that sounds like what Lucas said. Maybe things have more to do with how someone channels the Force. Guess they need limbs to channel it more?

 

Going by what Lucas said, the more body a person has, the more powerful they are. So by all rights (and Lucas Logic), Yoda shouldnt be able to touch the Force.
Then again, look who were talking about. Not known for logical storytelling in the recent decade, is he?

 

"Size matters not."

this GL stuff seems to contradict other GL stuff from earlier. he's becoming like the bible. he led us to believe the force is based on a person's mind, and has nothing to do with their body. dooku and palpatine are like 100 years old, and yoda is 800!, their bodies are deteriorating, but they're as powerful as anyone.

and anakin was supposed to be twice as strong as palpatine. i dont buy that. palpatine took out 3 jedi masters by himself! and sparred with yoda!

i also have a question:
palpatine knows the sith rule of 2. vader knows the rule of 2. so why would they agree to turn him to an ally? that would mean one of them would die. and palpatine would know that vader wanted to kill him. then why wouldnt palpatine just kill vader then?

PS: i think i answered my question. bc vader was the only one who could turn luke. he had to let vader think he and luke could kill him, but we was secretly planning to replace vader with luke. so the emperor feigned ignorance. does this sound ludicrous?

 

He needed him to achieve his final goal, which was to put Plagueis teachings into practice and achieve immortality. For that purpose he needed someone more powerful with the Force than himself, and Vader was just 80 percent of himself acc. to GL. He hoped with Luke's help he would finally be able to put into practice the trick he'd learned in theory.

 

Why did Palpatine need Luke at all?

At first i though he didn't need him. Just wanted him out of the way. Anakin as well. But why throw away potential?

I don't beleive ones force capabilities have any thing to do with your body size. Take Yoda for example...Anakin could be more powerful that sids. He just has to harness that power. Yoda, obi-wan, and Luke are at peace with their minds. Therefore making it easer to tap into the force. Palps' dreams of power are chasing each other around his skull, so his force potenial is there. He's just as capable as using it as a drunk catching a plane. Anakins' memories are driving him up the wall. So he can't keep up, plus he's confused...his sons alive!!!

Palpy knew Anakin was a threat. At first he was going ti kill him, but that was before he meet him in TPM. When he did...Sith potential!!!!...he won't pass that up!...so he turned him. Got the "chosen one threat" out of the way. And gained a apprentice!

Then Luke came along. Palps thought he'd have to kill him. But maybe he'll turn as easely as his old man...

Note to Palpatine...do you remember...Luke only caries half of Anakins' genes...the rest are Padmes'.

Palps is used to using the same techniques...if i were him, i'd of killed Luke and kept the big man.

If that hasn't made any sence whatsoever...i will have to finally leave with the men in white suits!

Cheers_Cazza