why did qui-gon lose to Darth Maul when people like Tyrannus and Yoda are strong

Old people like Tyrannus, Sidious and Yoda have immense power. So Qui-gon who was not so young but not so old, why did he lose to someone like Maul?

What separates dooku from qui-gon?

 

Why did Anakin lose to Obi-wan?

Why did Vader lose to Luke?

Why was Palpatine killed by simply being picked up and thrown off a ledge by a handless Vader?


Power does not determine the outcome of a duel.

If anything, Maul killing Qui-gon showed just how powerful Darth Maul really was, as Yoda says during his funeral that there's no longer any doubt that the mysterious warrior was a Sith.

 

Qui-Gon was about 60 years old, and considered one of the best lightsaber fighters in the orders history. As Darth_Ghost pointed out, I always took Yoda's line near the end of episode 1 (don't remember it exactly), about how the warrior who killed Qui-Gon must be a Sith, because he didn't believe any lesser foe could kill him.

Darth Maul was much younger, yes. But you also have to consider that he was completely warped, knew nothing but combat, lived to kill Jedi. I consider him, on a fighting level, on par with Qui-Gon (obviously), Dooku, Mace Windu, and even close to Vader. But the thing is, I think by his young age, he had hit his peak. Sidious had pushed him as far as he could have gone (and remember, Sidious would not have made him a Sith Lord if he had not shown enormous potential). By the end, he was nothing but controlled rage. The difference between him and Anakin is that the latter could go even farther. I also don't think Venress ever reached Maul's level, partially because she lacked the raw talent, and partially because she still had some humanity about her.

What I'm personally interested in knowing is what Sidious would have done with Maul, had he killed both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and captured Padme. Maul was not charismatic, or politically intelligent; he could not lead the Clone Wars like Dooku. I wonder, would Sidious have killed him himself? For all I know it might have been addressed somewhere, if anyone knows, I'm really curious.

 

I'm just going to quote something I said a while back in this thread:

 

The Dark Side.

In the words of Palpatine/Sidious, "The Dark Side of the force is a path way to many abilities that some would consider to be unnatural." It is what helped Maul kill Qui-Gon and it enabled Sidious to kill 4 Jedi knights singlehandedly and send Yoda packing to Dagobah. Dooku's jedi experience combined with the Dark Side allowed him to make chumps out of Obi-wan and Anakin. As for Yoda, he's not human. Aliens can perform the kind of stunts that not even Evel Kinevel is capable of performing and added with the fact that Yoda is the grandmaster of all Jedi is what helped him fight both Dooku and Sidious without any help.

 

This one is easy. Darth Maul was picked from a child to learn the Dark Side of the Force from one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever. Darth Sidious chose this child from all other force-sensitive people...that alone shows how strong as just a child Maul was. So by the time Maul reached adulthood and confronted Qui-Gon, he was beyond skilled in combat, knowledge of Jedi fighting techniques, and most of all...the Dark Side. I suggest you read the Darth Maul novels to learn even more of how skilled this Jedi killer was.

 

Whenever this question of power level comes up, I just put it very simply:

>9000 v. >9001

I would also expect that it would depend on your focus. If you practice ten thousand different techniques only once, you're not as good as someone who practiced one technique ten thousand times.

 

I never got this. Why do people think Maul was a mindless animal? He had few lines, but that's because he didn't need them. When he talked, or walked with Nute Gunray, he did not come across as a monster foaming at the mouth. Sidious chose Maul to be his successor, in case anything went wrong with him. Maul was probably just as charistmatic, intelligent, and politically ambitious as Palpatine.

 

And Dooku can come pretty close to losing his control when he's going all dark-side, so I'd second the believe that ten years down the line, Maul could have been quite an imposing figure to lead the seperatists.

Back on topic, adding to all that's been said before (and I really like the bit about Yoda saying the Sith thing because Qui-Gon was so powerful) just remember how Maul kills Qui-Gon: he fights dirty. he hits qui-gon in the head with the saber hilt. Now, while Jedi must have been used to mercenaries and other low-lifes fighting dirty, I suppose a duelist fighting dirty might have taken the Jedi off-guard, which might also explain why the two of them got kicked off the rails quite often. Qui-Gon himself goes over to hitting Maul, but this wouldn't have been part of any proper Jedi duel (and lets be honest, it's very unlikely that Lucas acknowledged the possibility of Jedi having to engage in swordfight for their lives before the Sith came back). Also, Obi-Wan starts kicking back once he loses control, and you can see that Maul is quite surprised by this lack of Jedi control himself.

 

Well, he was intelligent, and was capable of Palpatine-like scheming, as we see in Saboteur. I suppose, though, I always got that impression based on how he does his work. For example, in the comic, he goes right into the gangs hideout, and because he's aware of his power, just say's that "I've come to kill you"... and then proceeds to do just that.

He's a Sith Lord though, so of course he wasn't wild; he'd have to be controlled. He's able to hide his presence from the Jedi while on Coruscant, so obviously he knows subtlety. Still, I have a hard time thinking of him being the figurehead in a war; both Shadow Hunter and Saboteur have him display his contempt for pretty much everyone around him, and while that's common with a Sith, I'm not sure he would be willing to work with others. Finally, he seemed almost too loyal to Palpatine, to the point where I don't think he would have ever attempted to kill him. He even says in Shadow Hunter that he would kill himself, if his master asked. However, the above poster did make a good point; Maul is really young. Perhaps he would have been a better leader by the time of The Clone Wars, when he would be in his thirties, probably more patient (even though that's supposed to be a virtue of the Jedi, the Sith waited 1000 years... they have to be patient too), and probably more willing to work with others. Maybe Palpatine did intend to keep him. Come to think of it, wasn't Lucas considering keeping Maul for the overall villain, after Palpatine, of the prequels?

I actually think Maul gets a bad rap, I like him a lot. He's not as complex as Dooku, but I really like that fierce loyalty trait. He's basically the Terminator of Star Wars, but also seems to have control of his emotions (unlike, say, Ventress) until he chooses to let them vent.

 

Indeed.

It would have been pretty cool had the ostensible "blunt fighting instrument" that was Maul survived TPM only to emerge in AotC as an eloquent and persuasive alien demagogue. Dooku was a perfectly good character, of course, but his introduction in AotC suffered from the fact it came in AotC.

Should have been Ki-Adi.

 

Also, another factor that has to be brought in is Qui-Gon's chosen style: Ataru. It's described as physically exhausting, and in The Jedi Path, it's said that if you can't immediately defeat an enemy with it, it's probably best to retreat.

And lo and behold, what do we see the other big master of Ataru in the films (Yoda) do when he finds himself stalemated against Sidious? He retreats.

The fight on Naboo was long and brutal. It was a combination of Qui-Gon's age, his chosen style, which also is not very good for cramped quarters like the corridors in the Theed reactor complex, and Darth Maul just being that good.

 

I've always been a bit curious about Qui-Gon and Ataru. I don't get really into the lightsaber forms, but I do know that Ataru is supposed to be really acrobatic, with really wide swings. Qui-Gon definitely has wide swings in Episode 1, but Obi-Wan is the one doing all the acrobatics. I don't think it really has anything to do with age, so is Qui-Gon just modifying the style? I know he stubbornly kept to it, and was apparently skilled enough to defeat most of the weaknesses.

In one of the Jedi Apprentice books, Qui-Gon fights his old apprentice, Xanatos, and he's described as flipping and somersaulting all over the place. I guess I'll just say that Qui-Gon thought the jumps were a waste of energy, or something

 

well back then he was younger... besides Xanatos was a chump compared to Maul

 

I don't think that's a good comparison. Yoda retreated because he would have needed to move back to the top of the senate again, with Palpatine being able to throw everything he has at him and lots of clonetroopers closing in. In short, there was no way he could take on Palpatine and a whole army, it had nothing to do with his lightsabre-form. At that point neither was using his lightsabre anymore anyway.

 

Nope, should have been Qui-Gon. With Obi-Wan discovering and believing in Anakin (and Jar Jar) against his master's opinion. Wouldn't have had a funeral pyre then, but it would have been worth it.

 

Well, I was thinking in terms of TPM standing as it is. If I'd known we were allowed to change it, I'd have said Qui-Gon.

 

In that case, I agree that Ki-Adi would have been the best choice as it would actually have explained why he was allowed to talk when all the other non-prominent Jedi weren't.

 

George Lucas was actually planning on the new apprentice being an elderly Sith witch, until they got Christopher Lee and designed a new character just for him, IIRC.

 

Indeed.

And what he said would have become rather amusing in hindsight, too.

 

I see your point, but I'd rather have Christopher Lee . Honestly, I think his performance is the highlight of Attack of the Clones, which I must admit is my least favorite Star Wars movie, not counting The Clone Wars (though I don't dislike either of them, to be clear).

I see your point, but I'd rather have Christopher Lee . Honestly, I think his performance is the highlight of Attack of the Clones, which I must admit is my least favorite Star Wars movie, not counting The Clone Wars (though I don't dislike either of them, to be clear). Plus, I think it might have been hard for a lot of the audience to take Ki seriously as a villain.

Yeah, but I wouldn't think age would really effect a Jedi's ability to do acrobatics; look at Dooku. He's not the type to flip around, but he doesn't seem to have any trouble jumping in ROTS, and he's 80-something years old.

And yes, Xanatos is a chump .

 

I tend to think the labelling of Qui-Gon as an Ataro user is just an oopsie that was canonized in what was a pretty flimsy Insider article (I mean, really, if Ataro=flipping around, then there is zero reason to think Maul is a Juyo fighter as he flips around constantly and is very acrobatic). He tends to use his size alot in the duel with Maul and doesn't flip around at all; he strikes me as being more Djem So/Shien. Also, it's nice to think that Anakin picked Djem So in memory of his first teacher.

 

Thank you!!!!!

At least someone knows this is not Dragonball Z Serious, more powerful people can loose battles. Seriously. They do all the time in reality.

 

I could've sworn I read somewhere that Qui Gon had felt that it was the will of the Force for him to lose. And that he helped Obi Wan focus enough to leap and bisect Maul just before he expired himself.

 

Because Darth Maul was very good. Remember he previously had even bested Anoon Bondara, a jedi swordmaster that even Qui-Gonn looked up to.

Experience, skill and potential. He was one of the greatest living masters in the order.