Why did Sidious want Amidala to sign the treaty?

Sidious sets up a blockade of Naboo in order for his alter ego to have the opportunity to be elected Chancellor.

His plan only works if the Queen survives her escape to Coruscant and calls for a ?vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valorum.? However, Sidious seems to be working against himself when he:

a) Pressures the Neimoidians to make Amidala sign the treaty. If she signs the damn treaty, then the damn invasion is "legal", then there is no more conflict to be debated in the senate, and no reason to call for a no confidence vote...

b) Attempts to assassinate the queen (via Darth Maul) on Tatooine. If his plan was in fact to simply capture the queen, then we're back to the same problem we have in part a) above. On a side note: why reveal themselves to the Jedi so soon? Was it a wise move to allow the Jedi to know the Sith have returned and are somehow involved in the plot against the Queen and Naboo? I think not.

I suppose Palpatine had several plans in motion at once, but still, it seemed like he succeeded in his aspirations by sheer luck. Unless he somehow knew the Neimoidians were actually as moronic as they sound, and that they would certainly botch the assassination of the Jedi. And unless he somehow knew the queen would escape to Coruscant even after sending his well trained bulldog after her.

 

Ah! This is one of the cleverest aspects to the plot of TPM, in my opinion; not so much for the unwritten/unnspoken part of the plan -- though that factors in -- but for the way Palpatine wins "either way" (to quote Qui-Gon bargaining with Watto).

You may find the following thread helpful --> http://boards.theforce.net/prequel_trilogy/b10669/30737825/p24/

NOTE: Via the horizontal strip of links next to your name -- "Logoff / Private Messages / My Board Info" etc. -- click on "Options", followed by "Change Your Display Settings", and make sure you have "Max Messages Preference" set at 50, then, if you click that URL I've just provided, you should see the same responses I see. You can then use your browser to search the generated HTML page for "treaty". You'll see a few people chiming in with their thoughts on this matter, including one "JimRaynor55", the author of the "RedLetterMedia" rebuttal document. But I will just sum up and add some thoughts of my own here...

That is correct.

That is incorrect.

His original plan probably involved the Queen signing the treaty, which he would have subsequently used as ammunition to weaken Valorum's position, and ferment support for himself, turning the Trade Federation's aggressive takeover of Naboo, and the Republic's seeming capitulation to aggression/tyranny, via greed/corruption, into a platform for his eventual rise to power. I'll elaborate...

No. Treaties are normally signed under duress and/or with one or more parties benefiting at the expense of others (e.g., consider the way Germany felt it had been screwed over with the Treaty of Versailles at the end of WWI; it harboured a deep resentment tragically exploited by Hitler and the Third Reich: an historical paradigm which Palpatine/Sidious, or rather, George Lucas, echoes in his plotting here). In short, a thing being legal does not stop it from being objectionable or offensive to people who are subject to its legality or who are otherwise aware of it and find it odious on intellectual or moral grounds (e.g., capital punishment). On the contrary, its very legal sanctioning may make it considerably more tasteless or abhorrent. At the start of TPM, the Republic is in "turmoil", because a legal ruling -- "the taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems" -- is "in dispute". If a dispute over taxation (again, a legal ruling) can throw the Republic into "turmoil", try to imagine what the signing of a treaty between an outlying member world and a ruthless trade organization would do.

Bit of a separate issue this; perhaps someone else can deal with it. The Jedi were actually mystified by the Sith returning and weren't initially sure to believe that it was even possible. The way I see it (and I'm perfectly happy to change my view), the Sith are baiting the Jedi into making false moves; and, at the least, are sowing doubt and discord in their ranks, putting everyone on their guard, and encouraging them to take dubious actions superficially in defence (setting up the Clone Wars and the handing of Emergency Powers to Palpatine in AO

 

P.S. There is also a difference between having a treating signed and getting it ratified (i.e., made legal). Going from the former to the latter can be a lengthy, arduous process: a lengthy, arduous process that would no doubt arise in this case, and which Palpatine would use to his advantage, building support and putting pressure on the Senate to reject. In essence, had Amidala signed the treaty as planned, Palpatine would created an extended crisis within the Republic which he could ultimately have sailed to victory on. The unforeseen arrival of Amidala on Coruscant, and his manipulation of her, enabled him to jump a step, speeding everything up.

 

I suppose there is some logic there. It all seems a little too contrived for popcorn entertainment though.

 

The whole situation on Naboo was aimed at embarrassing Chancellor Valorum, giving Palpatine the in road into becoming the Republic's new leader.

 

You're welcome.

Star Wars is popcorn entertainment. Star Wars is also more than popcorn entertainment.

Just my two cents.

That's right. Palpatine also takes a dig at Valorum when introducing Amidala in the Senate. By saying that a "tragedy" has occurred, and then adding, "which started right here with the taxation of trade routes", he's blasting Valorum and his administration, who would have ultimately been responsible for approving the taxation legislation.

 

It's always been my understanding that the actual chain of events which led to Palpatine becoming Chancellor were not in any way originally part of his plan; based on what we can glean from the early parts of TPM, I've long believed that his original plan was to place the blame for the Trade Federation's blockade and invasion - as well as, one can assume, the deaths [reported or actual] of Amidala, her retinue, and innocent Naboo citizens - on Valorum's shoulders, thus causing his already weakened public image to implode.

Once Amidala proved to be more resourceful than he'd believed her to be by escaping the blockade and making it to Coruscant, Palpatine was forced to change the specifics of his plan as far as damaging Valorum's credibility and standing as Chancellor was concerned so that they included his manipulation of Amidala by playing on her passion and concern for her people and by exposing her to the true reality of what the Senate had become and was.

 

How's that supposed to work? Valorum is clearly not responsible for the deeds of the alderaanian Government. This isn't "the Republics" capitulation but only the capitulation of the rulership of one insignificant planet. It is akin to blaming the president of a country for the screw up of a completely unconnected town major. Amidala doesn't seem to be allied to Valorum, in fact she puts a no confidence vote on him.

I agree he could use the TFs attack as munition against Valorum, but the whole treaty signment issue still makes no sense to me.

 

Maybe becasue he knew she wouldn't sign it. Hence, setting his master plan in motion.

 

Valorum was the nominal head of the Old Republic, even though he didn't have unilateral power; because he was the person that the Old Republic looked to as its figurehead, he would have been responsible, ultimately, for the ratification of the treaty signed between the TF and Amidala, and would therefore come under condemnation if/when Palpatine were to present evidence or testimony that said treaty had been violated by the deaths of Amidala, her retinue, and other innocent Naboo citizenry (which is the most likely scenario given what we know), even if said deaths never actually occurred.

IOW, Palpatine would be able to create more outrage against Valorum if he were able to blame him - by proxy - for the Trade Federation violating their own treaty - which Valorum would've had to have supported and put forth for a ratification vote, being that he was the nominal head of the Old Republic and the 'chairman of the Senate' - by killing Amidala and others than he would've if he'd told Gunray (via his Darth Sidious persona) to simply kill her and others outright.

Palpatine also seems to indicate during his conversations with Amidala that there's a groundswell of anti-Valorum interest(s) out there, and, if such was indeed the case, he would more than likely have used said interest(s) to his advantage by cultivating friendships or alliances with those who didn't like Valorum and were out to get him, and his own position would be strengthened if he could point to Valorum being 'responsiblel by proxy' for the deaths of Amidala and others and the violation of the Trade Federation treaty.

I also wanted to mention that, if Palpatine's original plan had come to fruition, the process of him succeeding Valorum as chancellor (which was his end goal) would more than likely have been slower, so, in the end, Amidala sort of did him a favor by giving him an accelerated track to the chancellorship than he might've otherwise had.

 

Interesting. In my country the prime minister is much more powerful than the president and if some katastrophe happens in a village the parties forming the ministry would be blamed and not the prime minister.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I have to wrap my mind around this.

Wait a second. So Valorum is responsible for the defense of Naboo and not Naboo itself? I was always under the impression that the Republic was a pretty loose collection of planets. Apparently it was easier for the separatist worlds to leave the Republic than it would be for european countries to leave the EU (quite hard because of the Euro).

Well, I'm still not sure it is so easy to blame Valorum because I don't think of the Republic as a tight-knit system of planets. The planets visited seemed quite independant to me, even Naboo.

Yes, it seems there were some anti-Valorum sentiments before the crisis.

Hm, those that don't like Valorum are the most powerful factions. We're speaking of the bureaucrats ("They are the ones who hold the power in the senate" or similar) and the TF (obviously very powerful). The bureaucrats are pro-Palpatine and the TF is anti-Palpatine. I imagine that Palpatine would face really, really strong opposition. I doubt that his friends are more powerful than the TF and the bureaucrats, the arguably most powerful factions in the entire senate.

 

Amidala apparently used a similar tactic to what I'm describing in order to get Valorum to take decisive action in calling a special session of the Senate to address the Trade Federation's blockade and in sending the Jedi to Naboo as ambassadors; if she could play the 'blame card' in a positive fashion, it stands to reason that Palpatine could use it in a negative fashion, especially if he was able to accuse Valorum of not acting decisively enough in response to Amidala's previous use of the 'blame card'. The tactic would be made even more effective if, as EU material states, Palpatine and Valorum were close friends in their personal lives.

 

Apparently? It is quite possible she contacted the Jedi directly. As for the senate session, yes, she was obviously the one to bring this to light. We don't know whether Valorum was supporting her on that or not, though. Before the bureaucrats chimed in he seemed quite inclined to help the Naboo.

 

The incidents I cited come from, I believe, EU sources, which are pretty specific about Valorum's attitude, actions, and position as it concerns the Trade Federation's blockade of Naboo and the events that led up to it.

Regarding who contacted the Jedi, everything we know from the movies specifies that the Supreme Chancellor has to serve as a intermediary between the Jedi, the Senate, and the rest of the Republic's elected representatives and governmental entities, so it is highly unlikely that Amidala contacted the Jedi directly.

 

That's all fine but I don't accept the EU as argument when talking about the films. The EU also introduced concepts like Palpatines Rebirth or IG-88 overtaking the Death Star. If I were to accept one exlanation I would be forced to accept all of them.

True. It was Valorum then, who contacted the Jedi.

 

Like it or not, the EU is a part of Star Wars, and so any information gained from there is perfectly acceptable to use when referring to the films. They all take place in the same universe; Star Wars is one big continuous story.

What occurred in the film was clearly Palpatine's Plan B (or even C). But he is so crafty and manipulative that it doesn't matter if things don't go exactly as he originally planned.

 

Wrong. There are different canon-hierarchies in place. This is the movies-forum so it is a place for people to discuss using whatever canon they use (look up the forum rules). I will not accept EU as canon and you are in no position to tell me I should.

 

Even Lucas says the movies are their own thing... "their own world". He doesn't take any interest in the other stuff. He says he knows nothing about it.

 

The point is, EU will continue to be used to support arguments on these boards whether you like it or not. Furthermore, the forum rules specifically say you cannot dismiss an argument purely because it comes from the EU.

 

*Sigh*
Then how about "Padmé isn't the person to play the blame game and she certainly wouldn't want to blame a potential ally?".

 

Yes it will, but if the person on the other side of any such argument doesn't consider the EU canon, or part of their canon, the argument is null and void to that person. So essentially, from "a certain point of view", its worthless. Only if the person you're debating with acknowledges it also, can it be of any use.

 

Darth Pevra, the reason I used the caveat 'apparently' in my initial comments is because I believed that some of the info I was referring to came from EU sources, and because I knew that not everyone accepts the EU as having any relevance to or bearing on the content of the films, but when you seemingly objected to my use of said caveat, I felt compelled to make it clear where the info I was vaguely referring to came from.

Regardless of whether or not one accepts EU material, however, there are certain things within the canon of the films themselves which lend credence to my hypothesis concerning what Palpatine's original plans entailed.

 

Simple. Signing the treaty will legitamize the blockade. The vote of no confidence is the back-up plan.

If Darth Maul can assassinate the Queen then Sidious has nothing to worry about. I imagine that in the event of Amidala's death that a Queen would not immediately be elected. They would probably have someone for emergencies during transitions of power and that person would most likely be manuevered by Palpatine/Sidious into signing the treaty.

The Sith revealing themselves is of no consequence. They wanted to and they established that earlier in the film. When you think about it only Maul was revealed which prompted Mace Windu to ponder which was destroyed the master or apprentice? Sidious is the mastermind don't worry about it.

 

And then what? How does he achieve his goal, which is to become chancellor?