Why did Sidious want to turn Anakin?/When did he decide it?

I don't want this to sound like a criticism to the PT in any way, because I absolutely adore it. However, after watching ROTS the other day, I started thinking about something that I had never though before: the whole episode is staged around Anakin and his fall to the Dark Side, as the ultimate revenge of the sith (Palpatine). But, why did Sidious want to turn him in the first place?

Obviously, since the prequels were made after the OT, Anakin's fall had to happen, and had to be a major point. It worked great as a greek tragedy, and I absolutely love it. However, considering the actual story, was it necesary at all?

Anakin plays a small part in the destruction of the Republic, and I think it's safe to say that he wasn't necesary at all. Yes, he lead the clones to the Jedi temple, killed a few Jedi and killed the separatists,but the clones could have done the whole job without Anakin.

Besides, why did Palpatine wait until Anakin turned to "execute Order 66"? Why did he put himself in danger in a big ploy to turn Anakin? The Republic was already crumbling and the Jedi spread across the galaxy. Why did he need Anakin?

Which leads to the other questions. When did Palpatine decide to turn Anakin? Was it after Darth Maul's death? In AOTC Palpatine doesn't do much to turn Anakin to the Dark Side, and he doesn't seem very concerned about it (Padmé was almost killed and he didn't do anything to avoid it and Shmi's death had nothing to do with him). However, in Episode III his main concern seems to be Anakin. Every other plan seems to depend on that. Why? Couldn't Count Dooku fill that role?

And then, we have Anakin's ultimate fate. When Palpatine transforms him into a monster (Darth Vader), why did he do that? Did he need Anakin at all? Couldn't he get a better and stronger aprentice? Why is he smiling when he watches Vader pathetically walking for the first time, a mere shadow on his former greatness? Was it absolutely impossible to make him more of a super-powerfull-half-man-half-machine thing like Grievous?

What I really think is that Sidious, consumed by the Dark Side himself, had a sadistic (almost physical) pleasure corrupting a young and potentially great Jedi, and transforming him into a monster, taking away everything he loved,twisting his mind, and making him an addict to power. Look at Palpatine's face when Anakin pledges himself to the Dark Side or when Vader starts walking. He is feeling an incredible pleasure from the Dark Side, using the Dark Side to corrupt someone. It's almost as he needed to use the Dark Side to turn other people, almost like an addiction. Considering that the Dark Side works like a drug, I think it's very interesting aspect.

 

why did he need Anakin? Because Anakin was the chosen one who could destroy the Sith,

also, who would want anyone other than the best to help you wipe out the Jedi?

Sidious was obsessed with power,

Anakin was the most powerful Jedi ever and he knew it.

 

But if Anakin was the chosen one wouldn't it be much easier and safer to kill him? Thousands of clones at his disposal, Palpatine didn't need Anakin at all. But he let himself to be kidnapped and almost killed. He let Anakin to tell the Council that he was a Sith and wait patiently for a group of Jedi to come, risk his life in a duel...

And besides, why is Sidious so happy to see that Anakin has been reduced to a mere shadow of his former past?

For me, corrupting and destroying the Chosen One was the ultimate revenge of Darth Sidious.

 

I think much of the CW was a test for Anakin... if he'd been killed in any of his numerous battles or if Dooku had defeated him when he came to "rescue" Palpatine... Sidious would have simply moved on to his next "project". Sidious didn't necessarily "need" him.

Sidious was supremely confident in his plans/actions... he had no doubt that at any moment the Jedi might come for him, but he also was confident he could take them - and he did. He also had "Order 66" in his back pocket. Had Anakin been killed at any point during the CW... at least by the time we near the end of the war and Palpatine/Sidious had ensconced himself as the leader of the Republic... he likely would have gone ahead and issued Order 66, eradicated the rest of the Jedi, taken the mantle of Emperor and then set about finding a new apprentice (or keeping Dooku until a more suitable apprentice surfaced).

I don't think Sidious viewed Anakin as anything more than an apprentice to eventually take over the Sith... he may have viewed it as a fun challenge to see if the greatest of the Jedi could fall or to see i the greatest Jedi of them all could help him to destroy the Jedi from within but I don't think there was any deep seeded "need" for Anakin. Had he died on Geonosis, or in battle, or at the hands of Dooku... Sidious would have just moved on.

 

Palpatine was very patient with his entire plan to take over the galaxy and get rid of the Jedi. He wasn't one to rush into things. While he didn't count on losing Maul the way he did, as soon as he met Anakin he saw the potential. But no rush to try to do anything. Let the Jedi do the work of teaching him the basic Jedi skills. Besides, he didn't really need Anakin right away. He had to fabricate the war first. For that he needed the political skills of Dooku. So while he had Dooku working on the war, he could carefully watch Anakin grow and, along the way, plant ideas in his head about his potential, etc.
Once the wars had done what Palpatine needed, and he could see that Anakin had reached his full potential, he had no need for Dooku any longer, so..."Kill him now."
Then it was just the matter of timing the recruitment of Anakin. Palpatine obviously knew of Anakin's relationship with Padme so that was the perfect catalyst. Once he had Anakin convinced that he could save her life, the rest was cake.
So, he may not have immediately known *how* he'd turn Anakin, I think he knew from the end of TPM that he'd do it.

 

Palpatine to 10 year old Anakin: "We will watch your career with great interest." He knew it all along.

 

The first time I heard the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise, I said to myself, "Palpatine's the Poppa."

I don't think Palps knew who he was creating, or where the conception would transpire. Only the why. Think of it as a shot across the metaphysical bow. And when they finally crossed paths in TPM, he went right to work on the kid.

Naturally, there is precious little to support my argument, but it just makes sense to me.

 

I thought it was because to "cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together" etc., etc. In other words he thought they needed their combined power to crack Plagueis' secret unnatural skills, which would benefit both of them.

 

As drg4 said, in ROTS Palpatine hints that the Sith might have wanted Anakin to come into existence all along. The rest of the time he plays it by ear, getting rid of Dooku at a point where he knows Anakin is firmly in his grip and will be a more powerful apprentice in the time to come.

As for Order 66, the set-up and timing is obvious: Palpatine needs Anakin to realize that the Chancellor himself is the Sith Lord, needs Anakin to alert the Jedi, needs the Jedi to confront him, at which point he fights back and is eventually able to make it seem like the Jedi attempted to overthrow him. That's when Order 66 is finally possible. Not before the war is over, but at that very point. The Jedi have thus been duped into taking the blame, and Palpatine can gain massive support in getting rid of them and saving the galaxy from conflict.

Order 66 wasn't just a big ploy to turn Anakin, it was the ploy to destroy the Jedi. In order for that to happen, Palpatine had to make it seem like the Jedi attempted a coup by arresting the Chancellor. Something the Jedi saw coming, but weren't able to avoid.

Palpatine then seizes the day and sends Anakin on a mission that will seal his fate.

As for Palpatine's actions in AOTC you wrote that "Padmé was almost killed and he didn't do anything to avoid it". Well, he didn't do anything to avoid her death in ROTS either. Isn't her death really a positive from his point of view, if it can portray the Jedi in a negative light somehow?

About Vader becoming the half-man monster you wrote "Couldn't he get a better and stronger aprentice?" The return question would obviously be who? At that point the Jedi have been wiped out. I don't think Palpatine planned for Anakin to fall at Obi-Wan's hands, so he had to make do with what he got out of it.

And I don't think the title Revenge of the Sith refers to Anakin's fall as much as it refers to how the Sith finally wipe out their enemy. As Darth Maul puts it, they finally have their revenge.

 

Anakin was powerful enough a Jedi to dis-arm Mace Windu.
Palpatine probably recognised Anakin's fearful nature as far back as TPM. And remember, Anakin was causing a disturbance in the force and it must have been palpable to a Sith Lord like Palpatine.

 

Originally, Maul and Sidious were both aware of the "Sith Experiment" that was on Tatooine...

Don't know if that remains the case.

 

Before I saw ROTS, I assumed Palpatine needed Anakin to defeat opposition, but as the original post in this thread argues, the events in the movie suggest Palpatine could have handled the opposition without Anakin. The only opponent Anakin proves instrumental in defeating is Mace, and even this point is debatable. (How close was Palpatine to defeat at Mace's hands before Anakin arrived?) Anakin's fall in ROTS turns out to be weirdly like his redemption in ROTJ, in the sense that it has little effect (at least arguably little effect) on the sweep of galactic events (If Vader hadn't turned good and killed the Emperor, they both probably would have died when Lando blew the Death Star anyway, as far as the evidence in the movie suggests).

I agree with those who have argued that Palpatine would have been happy enough had Anakin died at some point before ROTS, but I think Palpatine knew this wouldn't happen. Anakin is the Chosen One, with awe inspiring potential (the realization of that potential is debatable), and turning Anakin was less about gaining an ally than eliminating the greatest potential enemy. If Palpatine could have killed Anakin, he could have eliminated the threat that way, but he couldn't move against Anakin himself and may have failed even had he tried, so turning him became the best option.

Of course, Palpatine may have been hoping to channel Anakin's huge potential into Sith related projects, a plan that got derailed by Anakin's crippling defeat at Obi-Wan's hand. But as a Sith Lord, Palpatine is more interested in destruction than creation, more interested in getting rid of enemies than making friends, so I think his main interest in turning Anakin was the neutralization of his enemies' greatest champion.

 

Potentially, perhaps. But that potential had not been actualized.

Don't believe Voren Na'al. He had a serious spice problem.

 

Have they... retconned-away, that fuzzy connection?

I can't; for the life of me, recall the original source where Anakin was called "the Sith Experiment".

 

TPM and Lucas' AOTC commentary strongly imply otherwise. We know sources can make mistakes, otherwise Mon Mothma was possessed by Exar Kun.

 

Gotcha. So I should just file this under:

 

Really interesting thoughts; that's what my original post was going to. Anakin's turn, which is the main focus of ROTS (the rise of the Empire becomes a mere subplot), is basically inconsecuential to the big galactic ploy. The same thing happens in ROTJ, where the whole political issue of Rebels vs. Empire becomes the backdrop for the more personal confrontation. In short, in both trilogies the personal story becomes much more prominent in the end, rather than the more political/galactic story (which is the main focus at the beginning of each trilogy).

I also agree that Palpainte as a sith is more interested in destruction than creation, and that was my original point. I still think that Anakin's fall is Palpatine's personal revenge; he takes a sadistic pleasure watching how the boy who had the potential to be the greatest Jedi ever, to be the Chosen One, is transformed into a monster, filled with hatred, fear, anger. Of course, getting rid of the Chosen One is obviously an important factor. But as you said, Anakin plays basically no part in the destruction of the Republic, and yet Palpatine risks everything to turn him. And, why is he smiling when Vader "awakes" (in an obvious homage to Frankenstein)?

I always think of the Dark Side as a drug: you get pleasure from it but you know it will destroy you. Palpatine, the absolute bad guy (who is already completely transformed into a horrible monster/addict), loves the Dark Side, and getting the Chosen One "hooked" to it, consumed by it, destroy everything he had for it (Anakin develops a need for using the Dark Side, he rationalizes at the beginning, as all addicts do, but then he forgets about his goal -saving Padme- and is only interested in getting more power), is like a Dark-Side-rush for Palpatine, IMO. (lol)

 

Surely, Palpatine didn't need Anakin just to tell Mace that he was a Sith. The Jedi would go and confront him anyway sooner or later, and he could easily accuse them of trying to overthrow him.

Secondly, with Order 66 in hand, he didn't really need the Jedi to confront him. Just activate the damn order and wipe them out. Even the chosen one would not be able to escape from thousands of clones. The Senate accepts anything he says.

I never said that Order 66 was a ploy to turn Anakin. But the ploy to turn him included all this: Palpatine being kidnapped and then rescued (incredibly risky, since he could have easily died accidentally), Palpatine facing four Jedi alone, Palpatine leting himself to be cornered (?) with no weapon, Palpatine refusing to use his power to stop Mace and waiting until the last second to force Anakin to act... All that was incredibly risky and absolutely unnecesary to take over the Republic. That was done to turn Anakin.

 

Personally, I think Palpatine is smiling because Vader is walking at all, not because Vader is having a tough time of it. I think Palpatine was afraid his new apprentice might be completely crippled and is glad to see him recovering.

 

He is trying to walk, pathetically. He is not as fast as he was,and he'll never be. Palpatine is actually smiling because Vader is breaking everything in the room because he is in "terrible pain". He smiles because he knows that Vader will forever be a slave now.

(And also, considering the ultra-fast and powerful thing that Grievous was, was it so difficult to make Anakin more into something like that?)

 

Well, first of all, we didn't see what Grievous was like when he first experimented with his cyborg body parts. He may have been just as clumsy as Vader or more so. If EU sources count for anything, James Luceno's Dark Lord depicts Vader as initially reacting clumsily with his cyborg components, but making great strides toward the end of the novel, arguably becoming more deadly than Grievous ever was. Even if we just take the Original Trilogy as evidence, Vader is much more mobile and coordinated by that point than he was when he first tried out his prosthetic limbs at the end of ROTS. Again, the argument can be made from the Original Trilogy that Vader became more deadly than Grievous. He doesn't jump about as much, but special effects of a different era have to be taken into account when we interpret the older movies in comparison with the new ones. In the Original Trilogy, Vader is not in many situations where Grievous-like reflexes would be especially useful. The movies don't put Vader in as many extreme battle situations, probably to keep the character cool while dealing with the special effects limitations of the time.

Also, Vader's cyborg prosthetics maintain the basic functions and limitations of humanoid physiology. If this gives him some limits which Grievous does not have, it also gives him the advantage of a body like the one he was used to, the one he knows how to control (I don't know what Grievous' body was like before he became a cyborg, but at least in the movies, his physiology is open to our imaginations, so he may have been similar to his cyborg form even when he was an organic alien). Vader has the Force, which more than compensates for a cyborg body somewhat weaker than Grievous', making him a much more formidable foe. Lucas' original idea for Grievous was that the alien voluntarily became a cyborg with superhuman strength to compensate for his lack of Force sensitivity, something for which Vader does not need to compensate. This idea about Grievous is contradicted by some EU material (for instance, James Luceno's Labyrinth of Evil), but it is hinted at in the Clone Wars episode "Lair of Grievous" and certainly not contradicted in ROTS.

EDIT: I forgot to add, if Palpatine is smiling because Vader is breaking everything in the room, that smile might very well be interpreted as pleasure at how strong Vader is with the dark side of the Force, a strength Grievous could never hope to have.

 

Oh, I disagree with a basic thing. I don't care about EU, and I should not care about limitations of the 70s or 80s. I just interpret the movies.
Yes, Vader is obviously much more coordinated in the OT, but nowhere as fast or deadly as in the PT, and MUCH MUCH less than Grievous, who does some incredible jumps and movements.

Anyway, I agree that Palpatine could be smiling because Vader is strong with the Force. I just don't buy it 100%

 

Even if you don't look at the EU and don't think about how the movies were made, in terms of special effects limitations, the question remains, does Vader need to jump and move like Grievous. If the answer is, "no," than Vader's dissimilarity with Grievous has nothing to do with Palpatine's plans. And given the fact that Vader can block blaster shots with his hand rather than jumping out of their way, I say the answer is "no."

 

I believe Sidious was more interested in dominion than in destruction and creation combined. He also stated as fact that he took much pleasure in creating the monster, Darth Vader. So much, that if given the choice he would have so again with glee. if my memory serves, this was written in a journal, after Palpatine had found his way back to his cloned bodies. So yeah, turning Skywalker was a twisted pleasure for sure.

 

I think the original question is answered in the duel between Sidious & Yoda, when Sidious cackles "Lord Vader will be more powerful than any of us!"

This, of course, is before Anakin/Vader has lost the duel with Obi-Wan. Anakin was, for all intents & purposes, potentially the most powerful Force user in the galaxy, & far too useful for Sidious to eliminate. His plan was obviously to keep him on a tight leash, but in that line to Yoda, there's almost an acknowledgement that one day he'd be far more powerful than his master & murder him, just as a Sith would, & I imagine Sidious was resigned to this fate, having embraced the Sith way.

His plans were, of course, undermined when Vader was crippled, but as we saw in the OT, he wasn't exactly useless to have around.