PT Why did the Jedi not present evidence at the Senate or take a more active role in TPM?

The Jedi Council are shown to assist the Chancellor in AOTC.

1. Why do they not assist Chancellor Valorum in his decision making in TPM?

2. Why are Master Qui Gon Ginn and Obi Wan Kenobi not presented as witnesses of the Naboo invasion before the Senate? After all, Jedi are meant to be trusted and respected members of society. And they were witnesses to events!

3. Why do the Jedi Council not appear to be very proactive in TPM? In AOTC, they at least appear to be doing something in terms of having Jedi try to calm down flares of trouble where they can. However they are finding the sheer number too much for their limited numbers as mentioned at the start of the film.

4. In TPM, the Jedi do not appear to have many problems to deal with. Given the discovery of an enemy who was thought to have been vanquished a thousand years ago, and the sudden single crisis in the Republic, could they not have either sent more Jedi or investigated more?

5. Could the Jedi have taken it upon themselves as guardians of the Republic to assess for themselves what was happening and taken what they thought to be the appropriate action?

 

They didn't assist one over the other. In AOTC, there is a threat of war coming and the Council is asked for their take on it. In TPM, they were sent by Valorum to settle the dispute.

But they were not sent to Naboo by order of the Senate. They were secretly dispatched by the Chancellor who was mired in accusations of corruption. They could not report their findings as it would result in Valorum facing censorship or worse.

That's because there's a war about to break out in AOTC. In TPM, the Jedi not on Coruscant is out in the field doing all sorts of different missions.

The Council does not believe that the Sith are back. However, they cannot send more Jedi as they do not have the consent of the Senate to do so. As it was discussed, their job is only protection right now. They cannot do more than that.

They could, but would then face criminal charges for it. They're only allowed to function out of courtesy to the Republic for their years of service. This was to foster trust with the Republic due to the actions of the Sith, their former Jedi comrades.

 

But in AOTC, does the Senate sanction Obi Wan to go to Geonosis, or for that matter the Jedi team led by Master Windu? Does the Senate sanction protection of Senator Amidala?

Why is they can seem to act in AOTC, but not in TPM? There are around ten thousand Jedi at the time of TPM. There must have been some available to look into the possibility of the Sith returning.

If the Jedi were requested by Chancellor Valorum to go and settle a trade dispute, even covertly, why can they not submit evidence to the Senate? They could have gone there/been on the planet on their own accord. In any case, it appears to be well known that the Chancellor had sent ambassadors - the Naboo knew of this.

If the Senate has not authorised the Jedi to take any action/launch any investigations into the Naboo crisis, then why does the Jedi Council send Qui Gon and Obi Wan back with the Queen when she returns to Naboo?

It seems like the Jedi could have acted somewhat more and still been acting within their legal mandate.

 

The Senate gives Emergency Powers to Palpatine, thus allowing him to bypass the Senate debates and enable the Clone Army to be used and thus allow the Jedi to go to Geonosis. Prior to then, Obi-wan was not given permission to do anything other than find Jango and bring him in. Palpatine could grant him that much.

Different situations between the two. As to the rest, two Jedi is all they can spare and if the attacker on Tatooine was involved, then he would show up on Naboo. Any more Jedi and it would look like a military response.

The two Jedi were sent back by the Council only to protect Padme and nothing more. That much they're allowed to do. They could not submit the evidence to the Senate because they were not supposed to be there and Valorum would face even more charges against him. He was already on thin ice thanks to Palpatine.

 

If Valorums actions as so illegal as you claim they are, they did help him beyond what they are allowed to do. Also they did make a report to Valorum but what was said is not clear. But what is clear is that the TF has in effect declared war on the republic by invading and conquering a republic world. In AotC there was a threat of war, this is actual war.

First, nothing in the film suggest that the Senate HAD to ok the sending of the Jedi. The Senate wasn't asked but that in of itself doesn't mean that Valorum broke the law in any way.
Second, the TF apparently knew that ambassadors were coming as they were not surprised when they showed up. The surprise was that the ambassadors were Jedi. Naboo also knew of the ambassadors. So it didn't seem very secret that ambassadors had been sent.
Third, neither the TF or Sidious say anything about Valorum breaking the law by sending the Jedi. If he had, they both would now have something to use against him. The TF could threaten to expose this flagrant violation if he doesn't remove the tax. And Sidious has now a golden opportunity to get rid of Valorum. But neither do anything.
Fourth, the blockade was known by the Senate and was something that was discussed a lot. If it were to go away, people would notice and ask how and the involvement of the Jedi WOULD become known. Nute would have no reason at all keep his mouth shut about the jedi being there.

So, the situation is a lot more serious than when the Jedi were sent, then it was to settle a blockade, now they are dealing with a planetary invasion and possible return of the Sith. So faced with a very serious crisis and the fact that Valorum's action was never established as dire and would become known anyway, the Jedi have no reason at all not to appear.

About the only explanation that works is that neither Padme nor Valorum thought that the Senate would be so stupid as to refuse to believe what was going on and they didn't see the need to have the Jedi there. Still doesn't explain why Padme didn't ask the two Jedi to be brought in as witnesses.

It very much seemed that the Jedi were stretched quite thin in AotC, less so in TPM.
So if they had 200? on Coruscant in AotC, they would have at least that if not more in TPM.
So they could surely have spared 10-20 Jedi.

But the council sent two Jedi to Naboo at the start without the Senate's ok. This shows that the Jedi can and will act even without the Senate's approval. Yes they were operating on behalf of the chancellor but said chancellor has just been sacked and they have no mandate at all.
So they can send two Jedi because they sent two Jedi before, based on an illegal order from the now ex-chancellor but they can't send anymore as that would be breaking the rules? Riight.

They Jedi made the discovery of the identity of Maul a top priority yet they couldn't be bothered to send more than one master, whom had challenged the council before and one they didn't fully trust, and one padawan. The council are unsure about the Sith but decide that they need to find out the truth. Given their misgivings with Qui-Gon it would make all the sense to send 2-3 other master and 5-6 knights as well. Esp since Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are going into a war zone and could get killed and thus not learn anything.

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The TF tried to murder two of their numbers, don't they Jedi have any legal recourse here? Can't they charge the TF with murder and attempted murder? And the Jedi seemed to be able to stretch the law somewhat in AotC. Anakin saying "Jedi business, go back to your drinks."
Obi-wan had no orders to go to Geonosis and yet he went and I didn't see the republic trying to arrest him for it.
And by the logic you seem to argue, if a hostile army landed on Coruscant and started killing people, unless the Jedi got an order from the senate to stop this army, they would just stand idly by.
As I said at the start, the Republic has been attacked and republic citizen have been killed and a planet invaded. This is very serious. Add to that the Senate's total inability to do anything about it. And add to that the possibility that their worst enemy are back.
And yet the jedi hide behind rules and regulations and prefer to do nothing?
The Jedi KNEW that the invasion was real and the TF could be attacking other worlds as far as they know. And they won't try to stop them as that could be illegal?

The latter parts of TPM has some really contrived things, like the TF deciding to remove all but one of their ships for no reason. And Padme deciding to go back despite not knowing this. Qui-Gon taking Anakin along to a war zone with little to no thought of his safety until they are right in the middle of the enemy's stronghold and then he decides to have Anakin hide in a fueled and armed fighter. The plot needs these things to happen and so they do, it just bothers me when plot demands are this glaring.

But Palpatine never gave Obi-Wan any orders about Jango, he only suggested that Obi-Wan protect Padme. And Obi-wan pints out to Anakin that their mandate is protection, nothing more. He gets orders from Mace and Yoda to find the assassin and later to bring Jango back. But Palpatine didn't ok any of it.


Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

The jedi were secretly dispatched by Valorum to get to the bottom of things. Valorum's government was tottering on the brink by the time of TPM thanks to baseless accusations of corruption secretly instigated by Sidious.

That part is covered well.

But what I don't understand is why the council or even Kenobi and Qui-Gon are not called as witnesses in front of the Senate by Palpatine or even Amidala.

When Valorum suggested a committee be appointed to discover the validity of the Queen's accusations she should have said "Oh wait. We already have a committee. These two jedi right here. By the way, I have this R2 unit right here and he recorded our escape because he was out there with the other droids trying to repair the ship as the blockade tried to stop us from escaping.

Valorum is weak. But Amidala is not. She's a kickbutt little ruler of her planet and she's going to do what is necessary to take back her world. Even if doing what is necessary means the end of the Valorum government.

 

[quote="Samuel Vimes, post: 51990577, member: 1374027"If Valorums actions as so illegal as you claim they are, they did help him beyond what they are allowed to do.[/quote]

Jedi are allowed to settle disputes, but this was one that was contingent on their remaining anonymous since the Chancellor was not given leave to send them out there.

Right, which is why Palpatine had Lott Dod and Aks Moe delay things in the Senate to buy him more time. The Jedi could not testify without bringing heat down on Valorum for his actions.

Unless he had to clear it through the Senate first, because of the accusations against him. That's why Mas Amedda was there, to keep him in check.

A secret to the Senate, not the parties involved.

Palpatine does something which is make Padme turn on Valorum. Nute is only told to stick to the plan.

The terms of the agreement would prevent Nute from discussing the Jedi's involvement.

Because she had assurances from Palpatine that her testimony would be sufficient.

Two Jedi would be sufficient against a wannabe Sith. And anymore Jedi to be sent would be deemed an act of war and not protection and negotiators. That's why there has always been only two Jedi sent at a time during peace time.

They can send two Jedi as protection, but no more. That is the limit of what they can do now when the Senate is in flux.

Maul wasn't the top priority. The Naboo crisis was and they could do no more than send two Jedi. If the attacker was a Sith, then two Jedi would suffice either way. As Palpatine said, not even Qui-gon will break the Code to in order to fight. This extends to the Council sending more Jedi.

Nope. Not until the Senate says otherwise. All the Jedi can do is protect the Queen and oversee the negotiations for surrender. Anything else would be an open act of aggression and the arrest would be tossed out.

The Chancellor was able to give them authority to arrest the assassin, if he/she tries again. That's not the same as getting involved in a conflict like at Naboo.

The Senate didn't know what Obi-wan was doing until his report was made public and Jar Jar then proposed giving Palpatine consent to declare war using the Jedi.

No, they could intervene without the Senate's approval there. They cannot between a world and an organization.

And now you know why the Sith came into existence. They were tired of the rules and regulations and wanted to rule by force.

1. The Federation removed the blockcade because Palpatine told them to. Easier to hide one ship than twenty to fifty.

2. Padme goes back because she think she can sneak back in, just as she snuck out earlier.

3. Anakin was taken because he has nowhere else to go and he is in his care.

Uh, yes he did. The Council was given permission to take charge of Padme's security detail and that included sending her back. That's why Anakin went to Palpatine in order to get him to give an executive order for Padme to return to Naboo. Yes, Obi-wan did act on his own because he saw an opportunity and took it.

 

Amidala presumably knows that Valorum sent the Jedi without permission, and that doing so would jeopardize his position. When he called for a committee to investigate, she could have used that against him, but what would be the point? The Jedi still probably wouldn't be allowed to testify under procedural rules. And Valorum's resignation wouldn't be as immediate or as assured as if she called for a vote of no confidence. So that's the route she took.

As for why Palpatine didn't use this breach of the rules to depose Valorum: well, as noted, it's not as surefire a tactic as getting Amidala to call for his resignation due to incompetence. Also, Palpatine himself was clearly involved in the secret decision to send the ambassadors, as he was confused when the Trade Federation said the Jedi never arrived. So using that fact in a transparent bid to unseat and replace Valorum would have made Palpatine look hypocritical and opportunistic, which was antithetical to his purpose of getting elected with a sympathy vote.

 

You're using many assumptions here. We don't know if she knows Valorum sent the jedi in secret. What do you mean what would be the point of using Valorum's call for a committee against him? That is what she did in the film.

The point would be to show everyone the jedi who were actually there and the evidence they had to show the invasion was real. And there is no way in the republic you would have a rule where your primary investigators serving the senate would not be allowed to testify while a sovereign ruler of her planet, a ruler who is not part of the republican government, is allowed to testify.

That makes zero sense.

That only brings up another question:

Since when can one person bring down an entire government with just her objection? And she's not even a member of the republican government! She's the sovereign ruler of Naboo.

I love Palpatine's machinations behind the scenes but this part didn't just stretch credibility, it snapped it in half and then again.

 

I don't think I'm making any unreasonable assumptions. Why wouldn't she know? She's the queen of the planet. I'm sure she was kept apprised of the situation by both Valorum and Palpatine.

And I didn't say there would no point in using Valorum's call for a committee against him. I said there would be no point in using his secret dispatch of Jedi ambassadors against him, because at that point she might as well just call for his resignation, which would be faster and more effective at getting what she wants.

The Jedi weren't serving the Senate when they went to Naboo. They were sent secretly by Valorum. Amidala could testify because she was supposed to be there. The Jedi were not. Their testimony is worthless because they were sent extralegally. It's like if a cop burst into your house without a warrant or probable cause. It doesn't matter if they see the meth lab in your basement, they can't talk about it because they didn't follow the rules.

....She didn't. She called for a vote of no confidence in Valorum after a very embarrassing and obvious display of his executive impotence, and then the entire Senate voted. She's not an official member of the Republican government, but as the sovereign of an entire planet under Palpatine's representation, she apparently has the power to do what she did, presumably insofar as it is with Palpatine's endorsement. We know this, because it happened in the movie.

 

Again we don't know if she knows the jedi were secretly sent. Not in the film.

When did the senate vote? I didn't see that. In fact, I didn't even see them approve her call for no confidence.

And the Jedi serve the senate. Do you know what type of government the republic is? It's a unicameral parliamentary republic. They serve the Chancellor through the senate.

And yeah, Amidala called for a vote of no confidence. It happened in the movie and it doesn't make a lick of sense; otherwise, you could have any ruler of any of the thousands or one million planets in the republic go in front of the senate and call for one. What the heck gives a sovereign ruler the right to do that in any parliamentary system? That is an incredibly weak republican system. It's almost as if Lucas made it that way so Amidala could do it. Oh yeah , he did. Again, the plot requires characters and, apparently, democratic institutions to be incredibly stupid, so Lucas writes them that way.

It's terrible. Awful.

 

I would have thought that giving the rulers of the Republic's member planets the right/standing to directly address, and initiate motions/votes in, the Republic's main representative body, makes the Republic more democratic, not "incredibly stupid".

She didn't decide Valorum had to go. The Senate did. All the movie shows is that she had the right to request them to consider exercising their powers to fire the head of the government. I don't think the movie has to show the Senators casting their ballots in order for the viewer to infer that they voted.

For all we know, there is a threshold of support that must be met before planetary ruler has locus standi to address the Senate, and Palpatine had been earning his salary gathering that support since the blockade began. Yes, this is speculation, but I'm just saying there are plenty of perfectly plausible reasons why the democratic institutions we see in TPM may not be "incredibly stupid".

As it is, people complain about the amount of politics we see in TPM, so I'm not sure how well it would have worked if the movie spent valuable screentime giving the audience a civics lesson in the mechanics of Republic governance. And it would have been well beside the point of the movie. Lucas wasn't interested in drawing a diagram of a specific polity; he was painting a picture of how democracy can fall in general.

 

But why paint a picture of how a democracy can fall in general if the reasons for its fall are not plausible? The way it falls is due to people in it being part of institutions so flawed it's amazing they even exist and people required to act stupid for the sake of the plot.

Amidala is not a part of the government at that point. The republican representative is Palpatine, not the Queen of Naboo. It would be plausible if she was a senator, like in Ep2/3.

So let me get this straight: I am a Tory councilman in Britain. I have a grievance. I go to my MP and I am granted permission to speak. So, Cameron gets up and speaks. I don't like what he says so I call for a vote of no confidence.

Yeah, that won't fly. It makes no sense.

 

No, she wasn't part of the government, but she clearly had Palpatine's endorsement. It may even be the case that the Senate is a true 'representative' body in the sense that each Senator acts purely as the delegate or deputy of their government, and the sovereign/head of government is the primary locus of the rights to address the Senate.

It's certainly different from the systems of representative democracy we might be accustomed to, but that doesn't mean it's "incredibly stupid". That's a little parochial, IMO.

 

That is a distinct possibility. In fact, I think the official name of the republic is the Republic of Sovereign Planetary Systems.*

That would seem to imply it's a trade body or confederated union like the UN, not even as strong as a EU.

*this info comes from the Episode One Insider's Guide CD-Rom.

 

Yes, the Republic at this stage is more of a supranational entity than a federal/unitary state. That comes later.

The UK analogy doesn't work because, in the British system, the monarch/parliament/government is sovereign. Even the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish governments merely exercise power devolved by the sovereign Westminster government to them. A councillor only has power on matters of local government, a level well below that of the Westminster government.

In the Galactic Republic, each member state (Naboo in this instance) is very explicitly sovereign, and the voice of each member state's leader carries substantial weight. Consider Padme to be almost an equivalent to a member of the European Council, a head of government of a sovereign state. That is, a member of the European Council in an alternative European Union wherein there's only a single representative chamber and a member state's head of government can assume the powers of their MEPs/Commissioners on procedural matters.

There have been a multitude of federative government types implemented over time. The Iroquois Confederacy had a different system from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which had a different system from the Dutch Republic. Not all of them were identical to the systems of government implemented since the time of the American and French revolutions. The fictional Galactic Republic has yet another distinctive system with its own procedures and protocols.

 

That is an excellent response. We know it has a common currency:credits. But it doesn't seem to have a military apart from the planetary defense militias. It seems like its almost a WTO or even EU.

 

It seems kind of like a 1990s globalist utopian vision - End of History and all that.

History begins again, apparently.

 

So would that mean Valorum = Francis Fukuyama…..?

Head of the Banking Clan = Alan Greenspan

 

Valorum doesn't seem to have an ideology beyond half-arsed maintenance of the status quo, or at least he's prevented from executing any vision of his due to him being mired in baseless accusations of corruption.

There probably is someone in the annals of Galactic history who predicts the end of history and the permanence of the Republic and its way of doing things. Valorum isn't that guy. He's just a pencil-pusher at the tail end of this era.

 

Yep, that's pretty much what I was thinking. I picture "the Republic" as something between the EU and the UN. It's clearly more efficacious and more of a unified entity than the UN is, but (in TPM at least) still pretty far from the EU's level of centralisation.

 

You are making several unreasonable assumptions.
First, you and DS assume that sent in secret = sent illegally. However there is ZERO onscreen proof for this. No one says anything that could be taken to mean that Valorum has broken the law in any way by doing this. And more importantly, both the TF and Naboo had been told of the ambassadors coming. Since the TF has a man in the senate and this person would know if the senate had ok this or not. Since the senate had not, the Tf could simply refuse to see these ambassadors as they are there illegally. This didn't happen. Finally, the Jedi were there to settle the dispute and get rid of the blockade. Had that worked their involvement WOULD become known. The blockade was a top priority for the senate and if it was resolved people would ask questions and the jedi's involvement would become known. And according to you and DS, end Valorums career.

Second assumption, Padme had been told that ambassadors had been sent, if she knew that they were Jedi or that the senate had not agreed to this is not established. Nor is it established that she knew that this sending must be kept secret or Valorum would be gone.

What Padme wants is for the senate to take action, calling the two Jedi as witnesses could achieve that. If it embarrases Valorum then so be it. It could accomplish something, removing Valorum doesn't have to accomplish anything as long as the senate refuses to act.

The Jedi serve the republic and have done so for millenia, their word would carry great weight.
Also the situation is pretty dire, the republic has been attacked and a whole planet invaded.
If we go with the cops example, say that they found an armed nuclear bomb and the countdown had started, would they just ingore it as they didn't have a warrant? I doubt it, they would call for help and if the bomb was defused I don't see anyone taking these cops to task over this.
And again you fall back on the unproven assumption that the Jedi were sent illegally.

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The question isn't whether or not she did, it is whether or not this makes any sense and how the Senate can operate if just any head of state can call for a vote of no-confidence at the drop of a hat.
Why didn't the TF use this to stop this new tax that they want gone?

@QuangoFett

But if the republic is like this then how can there be an issue for systems that want to leave in AotC?
The republic would have no legal right to prevent or stop systems from leaving. That people would want to keep the republic intact is one thing but they would have no legal ground to force the seps to stay.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Does the opening crawl not count as part of the film? Valorum sent the Jedi Knights on his own initiative. Palpatine (as Sidious) is pissed off because it's not something Valorum should have been able to do. We later learn that this is because Valorum no longer possesses any real power due to being mired in corruption scandals. It's not that hard to put two and two together. I guess they could have had a line or two more clearly explaining why the Jedi couldn't testify, but it just seems like such a petty complaint to me given that all of the information is actually in the movie.

edit: I misread that part of your post. I think it makes no sense to assume Amidala doesn't know that, given that everyone else involved seems to know. I think the only reason you refuse to accept that she knows is because otherwise your plot hole would disappear.

Padme moves for a vote of no confidence. We hear the Senate cheering (in the original version, they audibly chant, "Vote now!"). Noting that the outcome of the upcoming vote of no confidence is a foregone conclusion, Palpatine turns to Amidala and says, "Now they will elect a new Chancellor." The actual vote takes place offscreen, and it's not at all hard to understand that this is the case. I'm puzzled that this is apparently a sticking point for you.

Yes, I understand what type of government the Republic is. I also understand what the movie tells us, which is that the Chancellor secretly dispatched the Jedi of his own accord, despite no longer having any decision-making powers in the Senate.

In any case, the whole point of the scene is that the Senate is so bogged down in bureaucratic red tape that it doesn't matter how many witnesses testify as to what's happened. An official commission has to be appointed to investigate the claims made against the Trade Federation, and that's the end of it. The Jedi sent by Valorum aren't an official investigatory commission--they're ambassadors whose incredible claims would also have to be investigated by an official commission, as per the apparent rules of the Senate. Their presence in the Senate would have accomplished nothing for the plot other than satisfying the concerns of nitpickers who care more about technical minutiae than about the larger function a scene serves in a story.

 

But what is more important? Presenting the truth and avoiding a war and invasion of a planet? Or protecting a Chancellor? The events are also linked in any case.

How is Valorum not authorised to send 2 Jedi? He sends 2 official ambassadors. He merely witholds the information that they are Jedi to surprise the TF. Also Jedi would be able to force a settlement.