CT Why do some people dislike Vaders Redemption Arc?

Ive noticed some people dislike this plot arc, any idea why I loved it.

 

As did I, it's why RotJ is my fave SW film.

I suspect it because some feel he was 'unworthy' and 'irredeemably evil'. At least that's how a great deal here seem to treat some 'dark' characters here. Usually Tarkin gets the most flack but a few do the same to Vader. Personally I do not comprehend seemingly *wanting* to believe someone is beyond rescue.

 

A common argument is "because saving his own son is an emotionally selfish thing to do - it's not really altruistically motivated - and doesn't indicate repentance."

Kevin Hearne, writer of Heir to the Jedi, argues this in the 2015 Special Edition of Star Wars Insider.

 

Redemption isn't the same as "being forgiven everything bad he's ever done" in my opinion. He's done things, that are, well quite unforgiveable for most people, like murdering children. But I don't think it even was Vader's (selfish) motivation to be forgiven. He simply wanted to rescue his son and stop doing the darkside. That, in itself, is very impressive.

That he redeemed himself of course irks those people who like to do moral calculus. Eye for an eye. If you do this and that bad things you are not allowed to become good.

If all the bad people thought like that, that their past acts are "unforgiveable", then we wouldn't have any redemptions. It becomes an excuse not to change.

 

While I do like it - for me to accept it, does require that I believe Vader felt genuine, intense remorse for all the evil he'd done in the last 30 years - and that this remorse be the trigger for his attack on Palpatine.

 

The usual argument I hear is that, in some fans' eyes, it makes Vader less tough and fear-inspiring. They want him to be a merciless, murdering bad***, with no human compassion or dimension. This leads back to the complaint about the PT, where the same fans wanted Anakin Skywalker to practically have 666 on his forehead from the second of his birth.

 

There is a difference between redemption, and forgiveness. Vader redeemed himself by killing Sidious, who was on a whole other level of evil. IF you accept that his killing of the Emperor was an entirely altruistic act and as Iron_lord mentions he was feeling genuine remorse for all his evil actions, then he was showing that for all the evil he did and the many crimes he's committed then he died truly attempting to do something good and righteous. If on the other hand you argue there was an element of selfishness motivating him then perhaps he's not really redeemed at all, merely become the lesser of two evils (but still pretty darn evil in this case.)

In neither case though does it mean that all the bad things he did are suddenly not bad anymore. It doesn't mean that he was, for the most part, an evil person. It doesn't mean that his legacy to the galaxy wouldn't be one of suffering, pain and death. It certainly doesn't mean that all the people out there he's wronged (and there's thousands, even millions of those) should suddenly start talking about what a straight up dude old Vader was. It just means that at the point of his death, he truly and deeply wanted his last act to be a heroic and righteous one. No-one can make anyone forgive you, you can't 'earn' it; only the person you've wronged can make that choice and for the most part Vader is going to be remembered solely as a despicable monster, in universe. The only person who will remember him as anything else is Luke, and (some of?) the viewers... but he knew that and did it anyway.

 

I know that whoever wrote "50 reasons we hate ROTJ" back in 1997 or so, included the redemption scene on its list:

32- Jedi Afterlife: You can screw up your entire life, strangle scores of people and oversee the construction of a planet-destroying battle station, but as long as you repent with your last breath, you get to party with Yoda and Ben in the nether-world.

 

Once again, I come back to what Lucas said.

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221

Lucas himself had gone back and forth on this as originally, Anakin returned to the land of the living, healthy and whole in the rough draft for ROTJ. But as he went on, he decided that he shouldn't because of all the evil that he had done. So we weren't going to see him again after he died. But it was Howard Kazanjian who convinced him to add in the Force ghost and he wound up liking that idea as he was able to evolve it to where he said the above.

But a lot more of the anger centers around the fact that Vader killed children and choked his pregnant wife, which for them the story stops being a fantasy and become a reality that they cannot abide by. For some people, there are things in this world that they cannot forgive. And that results in the discussions here.

 

I think worth mentioning is that Vader's redemption arc takes place in the eyes and mind of Luke as equivalently as it does the viewer. With that said, keep in mind Luke doesn't witness firsthand the evil actions of his father. He only hears about it in vague terms from Obi-Wan, Yoda, Uncle Owen, and Palpatine. And further, he only knew Vader was his father for a short time and had to process that in conjunction with just hearing about how evil he is. All that considered, when it came time for Vader's redemption it was certainly plausible, possible, and acceptable from Luke's point of view. So from a character and cinematic perspective I think this should be taken into consideration, not simply what the viewer can see and is aware of that the main character is not.

Imagine your own family member who you don't know very well and have only heard has done bad things but then upon finally meeting that family member he or she makes a serious attempt at redemption by personally saving you from a horrific demise and is now on the verge of death as a result. You would be hard pressed to not redeem that person in that moment.

So again, the Vader redemption arc takes place as much for Luke as it does the viewer. Lucas and company did the best thing they could to balance this.

 

I've always liked the redemption ever since I first saw it in 1995. I was nine when I first saw it. It's sad even how people almost never genuinely apologize in the real world when they do something terrible. I'm glad when a few do.

 

I agree. I think a lot of people, myself included, assume that forgiveness and redemption means, "All the horrible stuff you did no longer matters, we now see you as a beacon of heroism!" It might be a slight case of moral absolutism: "Once an evil person, always an evil person. Doesn't matter if you changed and spent the rest of your life constructing orphanages and hospitals, you're scum." There's a grain of truth in there; to some people, the idea that a monster could be forgiven is abhorrent because it's saying, "We don't care about all the victims you've murdered, we don't give a damned about all the pain and suffering you've caused." Care more about the victims, not the evil bastard who decided to finally grow a conscience at the last minute is what they're saying.

Another thing to note is that almost as soon as Vader did his heroic act, he died. He never had a chance to prove himself to anyone other than his son that he was anything other than a monster. I'm sure if he had lived, he would have been more than happy to try and help the Rebellion crush the Empire he created. But he didn't, he died. We can't really fault him for that. To be honest, I think it was a little bit of both what you and Iron_Lord said. He cared mainly about Luke, obviously. Saving him was his top, top priority. The Rebellion? Not so much, but he probably figured with the Emperor dead, it'd be much easier for Luke and the others to topple the Empire over one day.

 

Precisely. That doesn't mean that saving his son was wrong or selfish. To save his son at the expense of his own life is a selfless thing since all good parents would lay down their life for their children. Anakin couldn't do that for Padme which is why he became Vader.

 

So do a great many animal parents. It's a "selfish gene" thing - self-sacrificing behaviour toward your children, preserves your own genes and increases their chance of being passed on.

 

I wouldn't call that selfish in humans since they can choose to do that or not, whereas animals don't have that cognitive level of intelligence.

 

Humans still have the same "instinctual drives" though - even if they have more in the way of conscious thought.

 

I was surprised when I found out some people did't like this. I think its one of best parts in the whole saga.

 

He didn't need to be redeemed. He was the Chosen One. It was his destiny to do what he did in order to bring balance to the Force.

He did his duty and now gets to relax in the Jedi Afterlife with those Younglings that, one assumes, threw themselves at Vader's lightsaber to help him in his Hero's Journey.

 

LOL @ "animal parents" ...but yeah a lot of animal eat their own young. I think those would beconsidered the selfish ones.

 

The Rebels like to give defectors to their side a pass, on past crimes - Crix Madine, Juno Eclipse, and so forth. If Vader defected, they might do the same - at least until the war ended.

 

Not sure if a redeemed Vader would help the rebellion. He still didn't really believe in democracy, he might do other stuff, like freeing the slaves of Tatooine.

 

Well Vader's one altruistic moment was inspired by Luke being his son specifically, not Luke-the-rebel generally speaking. I don't see any reason why Vader would suddenly become a democratic, freedom loving rebel if he somehow survived - if anything he'd think the Rebels didn't go far enough in their tactics; even as Anakin Skywalker he was pretty forceful and militaristic by Jedi standards.


That said I think he made his attack on Sidious fully aware he could die, perhaps even intending to die. His self loathing was enough that he knew he had no place in a galaxy with people like Luke had proven to be, and perhaps he even thought of it as fulfilling his destiny and killing BOTH Sith, if he still considered himself one.

 

It may have been the dark side that fueled him, that allowed him to survive the damaged physical state he was in. After all, he survived what no mortal man can survive. Maybe his whole existence was "unnatural".

 

I think that's the whole basic point behind the Force Ghosts actually - the Jedi (for all their flaws basically decent and altruistic people) face their death, accept it and ultimately even embrace it and get an eternity of existence in peace at one with the Force. Vader (a Sith) facing death fought to survive and as a consequence lumbered on in pain and self-loathing and hatred and misery without even being able to control his own natural body. Then of course he got another 'chance' to die and did it the Jedi way and got to spend the rest of his existence looking like Hayden Christensen, with all four limbs...

 

Like so often, you just hit what I was thinking about.

I actually find the Sith's survival instinct inspiring in some ways. They don't give up. They don't allow themselves to despair. There's nothing inherently wrong with being more machine than man, it is not really an "evil" thing. But often, they just take it too far and other beings are made to suffer for their own gain. It wouldn't surprise me to see a dying Sith draw the life-force from another being to survive himself. Maybe Palpatine or Vader even did such a thing? Who knows?