Why does the dark side corrupt? Why does the light side NOT purify?

What convinced Jacen Solo to join Lumiya, and give himself to Sith teachings and the dark side, was when he was persuaded that the dark side did not corrupt.

Since the dark side did not corrupt you, he thought the means (of using the dark side) justified the ends (of galactic peace).

As we saw, the dark side does indeed corrupt.

We have even seen this lately with Cade Skywalker too. Although not totally crossing the line yet, his excessive use of the dark side has been affecting him.

Why does the dark side corrupt???

Is it because there's an external dark side, you lose personal responsibility once you cross the line, "the Devil made me do it"? Are we sure an external dark side exists? If an external dark side does exist, does that really get rid of personal responsibility?

Is it giving in to your own inner dark side that makes it stronger and stronger, being more psychological, like a habit or a drug? What makes it so addictive: is it just the power, or something more? Where does this internal dark side come from, if it exists?

How can you tell the dark side from the light side, the negative from the positive?
Is someone in an uncontrollable rage, only out of selfless and compassionate reasons, the dark side?
Is someone coldy and emotionlessly killing defenseless others, without thought of attachment or emotion or self, in a calm and peaceful state of mind, the dark side?
Is someone saving a suicidal person's life, the dark side?

If it was wrong for Anakin Skywalker to kill defeated Count Dooku and the defenseless Separatist leaders, if it was wrong for Luke Skywalker to kill the defeated Darth Vader, if it was wrong for Darth Caedus to sacrifice the few to save the many... then what makes it right for Jaina Solo to go on a "kill Caedus" mission with the blessing of Luke Skywalker and the Jedi Council?

Conversely, if the dark side corrupts, why doesn't the light side purify? Why is someone with years of experience with the light side still able to be easily tempted or seduced by the dark side? Shouldn't using the light side help purify people, and make them even stronger to resist the dark side?

 

I think the Dark Side doesn't JUST corrupt but DRAWS the corrupt to it. The Dark Side itself is more like a incarnation of negative energy in the universe. It's destruction, chaos, and the power of rage as well as destruction. It's Anti-Chi from Taoism and Fel Magic from World of Warcraft. It's toxic waste and plutonium in terms of the Force.

Bad people want it and when you use it, you get worse. It's totally non-sentient though only causes people to get really really high off of the evil emotions.

I would love to see the Dark Side treated more like a drug and Cade Skywalker addicted to it as much as he's addicted to the Death Sticks. In fact, it seems that he probably is to be perfectly honest.

It wasn't right to go kill Darth Caedus. However, it was probably necessary. The same logic can be used for Luke Skywalker blowing up the First and Second Death Star. The main difference is that Darth Vader and Count Dooku were both totally helpless. Darth Caedus, on the other hand, continued to fight on even after he'd lost limbs.

It was a wrong that was done because there was no way to redeem him or capture him.

We do, Darth Vader is purified by his love of Luke Skywalker. It infects him and cripples his ability to use the Dark side of the Force (Shadows of the Empire). Likewise, the Light Side of the Force seems to do a complete Yo-Yo on a lot the redeemed murderous psychos we encounter.

To continue to go with the difference between World of Wacraft's Fel Magic and cleaner energies like Shamanism or the Light, the fact is that the magic just magnifies your bad qualities rather than eliminates personal responsibility. To a certain extent, a person High on the Dark Side of the Force or Fel magic is not going to do the normal things that he might do. Darth Caedus, unless we discover that he's tied to the Force Craziness, annihilated Fondor and Kashkyyyk's forests when he used to be a fairly normal man. I tend to think the Dark Side took his initial paranoia and worry before magnifying it tremendously under the influence of Sith magic.

A similiar thing happens with Kael'thas in World of Warcraft. He's a traumatized and somewhat arrogant Elf King who is nevertheless deeply devoted to his people above all things. However, when he starts absorbing Fel magic to survive after the destruction of the Elves' Sunwell, his paranoia and power-lust start to overwhelm him until he completely TURNS AGAINST his people.

Something similiar happened with Yulthara Ban in KOTOR1. She became a Sith to fight slavers but actually forgot about them soon after, becoming obsessed with the Dark Side instead.

 

Well, first, there is the Force. A part of the Force is called the dark side. Similarly, there is your body. A portion of your cells are called cancer cells. The Force keeps the dark side in check most of the time; its last-ditch effort is to create an avatar, the Chosen One.

The Force itself doesn't purify unless someone wants to be purified. Obviously, most darksiders are too busy with UNLIMITED POWA!!!!!1!!cos(0) to be purified. So it takes something like a father's love for his son to redeem.

 

Not as far as I know. Per PoD, the dark side does cause irrationality that comes from dark emotions fueling themselves. So, a case can be made for lessened responsibility while under its effects, but not a total loss. The desire must be there to begin with.

Good question. I'm not sure it is all that addictive. The power might well be, and the secular consequences of acting upon that power as well, but I haven't encountered anything to convince me there is something mystical about it that drags you down further and further in spite of your own desires.

Doesn't seem like the Jedi have much trouble sensing the difference in energy. Internally, the Jedi preach trusting your feelings, so knowing the difference between the midis speaking to you through your feelings (aka will of the Force) and the lure of sentient emotions enhanced through the dark side, is prolly more of a challenge.

1) Morally, no. Energetically, yes.
2) Morally, yes. Energetically...partially. The calm individual wouldn't be using the dark side energetically, but the premature death, fear and pain he causes, would strengthen it.
3) Morally, have no idea. Energetically, no. If anything, preventing premature death, and the fear experienced by a suicidal person, would prevent the dark side from strengthening.

I believe there was a reason GL created a dark side, without also including a light side (save perhaps Luke's "good side", which I suspect refers to morality more than energy). Namely that there isn't one. I haven't found mystical evidence of it anywhere, or even heard of such. As best as I know, the light is nothing more than a lack of dark, along with the personal willpower needed to achieve such a feat.

Morally, there is a light side, however. The Jedi love preaching and practicing it. It is presumably an amalgam of traditional good morality combined with the principles of rejecting and containing the energetic dark side.

It does in a way, even if there is nothing mystical about it. Rejecting it takes control and willpower, which when achieved helps them reject it. Also, I remember a Databank entry where Obi told Ani to use the Force to control his emotions, so apparently this is possible too.

 

It's a slippery slope. Once you Force choke someone in traffic, the easier it becomes to do it again. The more you do it, the more likely you're going to be to kill someone. The more people you kill the less likely you're going to be to feel remorse about it.

You will know. When you are calm, at peace.

Anakin killed Dooku for revenge. Luke would have killed Vader out of anger. Performing those acts only feeds those emotions, makes them stronger. Forgivness is the proper path. This is why Luke didn't strike down Palpatine. He would have done it out of anger and hate, and Palps knew it that's why he goaded Luke to do it. Jaina killed Caedus out of love. It was a mercy killing. She didn't really want to do it, but it had to be done. Remember, Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor.

We're all human. Who we are isn't superseeded by the Force. Do you think it's easy to be Obi Wan Kenobi? H-E-double hockey sticks no. Obi has to live in total control of himself at all times. He has to fight temptation on a daily basis. He has to practice non attachment not from objects and people, but situations. If someone tells him his mother was a toothless rancor, he can't become personally invested in the situation.

Is it easy to be Darth Vader? H-E-double hockey sticks yes. Vader doesn't have to worry about control. If someone tells him he's a fatherless nerf tipper, then that guy is dying a long slow death.

What would SW be if the light side purified or white washed the Jedi? Boring. The Force is awesome in and out of universe. But it's still like playing with fire. If you're not careful, you'll get burned.

 

Well, insofar as *physical corruption* is concerned, it's not the bad emotions that do it, it's the stupid amount of Force energy those bad emotions let you channel.

See: Dorsk, or Luke after he performed that illusion in DNT. Neither of them were using "the dark side", they were simply channelling a stupid amount of energy and got physically affected.

The light side doesn't 'purify' (or mess you up) because the whole point of the light side is to adopt the Zahnian "don't use the Force so much" approach. For a true lightsider, there is literally no difference (beyond that in the mind) between moving a pebble and moving a ship. Same amount of Force energy for both.

A dark sider, on the other hand, is mechanical and logical and sees the Force as being bound by the rules of the physical plane. As such, they'll use more to do more and mess themselves up in the process.

The mental corruption, I think, is a case of the "lots of the Force" amplifying the emotions you're using to draw upon it. Which leads to even more Force, which leads to more amplification which leads to more Force. Per Bane's reflections in PoD.

 

Interesting thought...

And the conclusion would be that darksiders have a max potential power-wise, while lightsiders don't.

I'm having problems seeing that. Between GL's comment on Ani's max potential, and the presumed connection it has with his midis rather than his preferred method of Force use, and the overt displays of power of the most powerful non-Skywalker darksiders compared to the equivalent lightsiders, I don't think continuity reflects such a thesis.

Even if it is all in the mind, as Yoda said, it doesn't therefore follow that equal energy can be used for a greater feat.

Any particular reason you think so?

 

I don't think so, I think the conclusion is that darksiders have an easier time of growing powerful but that they definitely do have a 'max limit', whereas a lightsider's power is - in theory - potentially infinite.

Though, more often than not, you'll end up with darksiders edging out their lightside cousins - yes, because the light side is harder and less intuitive.

I think it also means that the darksiders will consistantly perform better whereas lightsiders will have those days when they're "in the zone" and absolutely amazing and untouchable, and other days when they come across as considerably weaker than they should. (Which is definitely reflected in canon )

Midi-chlorians measure sensitivity to the Force. Everyone draws upon the very same mystical energy field, however.

We are also led to believe that midi-chlorians tell folks "the will of the Force" and we know that the will of the Force is that you don't impose your own will upon it as much as you're able.

How does it not follow?

"Moving rocks is one thing - this is totally different." - Luke
"No, no different. Only different in your mind." - Yoda

Yoda specifically states that there is no difference in the moving of the rock and the ship than that which exists in Luke's mind. (And I imagine that the 'mental difference' is permanent and something that simply gets easier with time). The amount of Force energy that Luke uses to lift it is an external factor to what's going on in his own head.

We know from a number of sources (see Dooku's thoughts on TK in EGttF) that, when people are under the impression that something is lighter than it actually is, they have less problem in Force-moving it, too.

Anyway, my position is - essentially - that the Skywalker midi-chlorian count gives them an unpredecended connection to the Force, which gives them the potential for an unpredecended understanding of its will and how it works, which is why they have such a great value to the Jedi.

A Sith just sees them as being able to channel stupid amounts of Force power with very little training and that's where their value ends.

I'll dredge up my old posts on it if I can find them, since I'm too lazy to write most of this stuff out again. The above is the gist, though.

Essentially, though, I see the Force as one mystical energy field that is unified. The "dark side" is the down side of the Force - the fact that it messes people up physically and mentally if they draw upon it too heavily. The "light side" is using the Force in the "correct" manner and making a very little amount of energy go a long way. The light side isn't logical whereas the dark side is, which is what makes the latter "quicker, easier and more seductive".

Anakin: I want MORE. And I know I shouldn't.



Charles, Arawn. I know you disagree. That's cool.

 

So, strictly potentially, then?

Still, doesn't RotS blow a hole in even this? The very guy who said it is all in the mind, and who had spent the better part of his 900 year lifespan gaining mastery of the Force, was beaten by someone who couldn't have been older than ca 150 years old at best. If there was ever a viable example of your thesis, Yoda should be it. Yet even he was beaten by a darksider.

If anything, I see the duel in the senate as evidence that the limits to the light are lower than those of the dark. So that Yoda hit the roof at some point. And that even fits with your assertion that the dark gives the ability to channel gross amounts of energy. If the light has a limit, where the dark doesn't, that explains Yoda's loss rather well IMO.

We do? I don't. I never heard that particular definition before. Enlighten me?

It follows that such things as for example TK ability is limited by the mind, but it doesn't therefore mean the energy field itself has to expend the same amount of itself to lift a rock as it would a ship. That was all.

No need. At least for the moment. I agree with most of it.

Hadn't thought of that before. Would have been intriguing if I didn't see the duel in the senate as stabbing a hole in the thesis that the light is theoretically unlimited.

Haha! Wouldn't that have made Sids "Unlimited Power" ironic!

For the moment I am working off of the assumption that the dark side increases midi count, and that the midi count is what makes the dark side faster.

 

I had a longer response but then I hit back accidentally and it vanished. Which is annoying.

Anyway, in short, RE: The Senate Duel.

The fact that Yoda knows, academically, how the Force works does not mean that he can use it to its maximum (that is to say, unlimited) potential in practice*. I'm sure he's come a long way in his nine hundred years but he's only mortal, with mortal understanding - and he may have reached the limits of his understanding (and ability to 'unlearn') a long time ago (at least until he begins his studies beneath Qui-Gon's spirit). Palpatine is, also, the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith to ever exist and he has a particularly strong affinity for the dark side. All that duel demonstrates is just how much quicker and easier the dark side is. I mean, consider that all Palpatine has to do is reach into the Force (using emotions that make this easier, anyway) and lob a huge wadge of it at stuff to get what he wants out of it. Yoda, in contrast, has to quiet his mind (in a battle), try to impose his will on the Force as little as possible and get similar results out of much less energy so as not to disturb the Force's harmony and balance.

The trade off, obviously, is in the whole "going bonkers" and physically degenerating (which is what limits the dark side - there comes a point where you just burn out) whereas Yoda has lived a long long, is aging gracefully, but is more than capable of holding his own for a fair while against Palps.

Jedi try to be "at one" with the Force. Sith try to be "the one" directing it.

That works for me as a justification and that's really all it has to do. If it works for you too, awesome. If not then... well, doesn't stop me from thinking the same things.

The above is not to say, however, that anyone can just embrace the dark side and become more powerful than Yoda (see: Anakin). We know that there are techniques and processes behind good, efficient use of the dark side, too. Which Palpatine, heir to all the knowledge of the Sith, has mastered. One who is unfamiliar with the dark side may get a great deal of "power" out of it... but it wouldn't necessarily make them more skilled, just by virtue of the fact that they don't really know what they're doing with it.

RE: Imposing Will =/= Will of the Force

As for imposing one's will on the Force being against the will of the Force (and the Jedi are servants of the will of the Force) the most recent sorce that shows us this is the Legacy comics. Cade's frequent imposing of his own will upon the Force is viewed as a VERY VERY BAD thing.

Also came up in the HoT duology, in which Luke comes to the realisation that using great globs of Force energy to do everything is actually of the dark side and he should stop doing it.

Also see the Sith emphasis on their "will" and making said will reality.

* I know how multiplication works, but I'd be hard pressed to work out some sums without a calculator (or at least with a pen and paper).

 

So, in other words, even at 800 years of age, Yoda was not able to go beyond the limits of a darksider in battle? Sounds like it makes no practical difference then, being a purely philosophical concept.

In that case, I must confess to losing interest. You might be right, but if there is no concievable way to have a character confirm it, the issue becomes purely academic. Perhaps if Force Ghosts were able to grow stronger over time, which I have no reason to believe, else the Sith spirits we have seen should have been capable of blowing away any living resistance.

I'm not discounting the mitigating factors in the duel, such as concentrating in battle and the dark side being faster, but it the explanation were as simple as that, it would blow away all other examples of Jedi vs darksider I know of, creating a gap greater than even that between Maul and Quigs. And Sids wasn't by any stretch the exclusive fighter Maul was either. Thus I find those factors insufficient to explain Sids being able to win.

But hey, I prefer to leech, not to teach, so I have no desire to try and convince you. The facts are what matters, not the thesises.

Not a Legacy reader. But I've been made aware that Cade is toying with the dark side, as the HoT argument seems to be centered around as well. I agree that using great amounts of energy is of the dark side, but your argument hinges on the dark side not being the will of the Force. And even if that is the case, as the Chosen One prophecy indicates, I don't see where imposing one's will on the Force ties into this.

Using the dark side doesn't = Imposing one's will upon the Force by definition AFAIK. Now, the Sith would be probable sinners in this category, but using them as the vital link between dark use and imposing one's will on the Force, becomes too weak IMO. Use of the dark without demonstrating such intentions is more than common enough. Not to mention that such an argument also would affect any light use that was done in an attempt to just control the Force. Making the matter seem more related to intentions towards the Force, than anything connected to just the dark side.

Especially when it to begin with hinges on "A prophecy that...misread could have been".

 

The whole "dark side" bit is where the Force sort of breaks away from Eastern mysticism and starts looking more like Jewish thought on Qliphothic ideas as involved in Kabbalah. It's not a one to one ratio, but the ideal is one of those areas of Jewish mysticism where they struggle to explain why evil exists, and to them they came up with the "dark twin" of the Seripoth, or the Tree of Life, which was just a representation of the aspects of god and how one might rise in understanding of god. The idea being that the dark twin of the Tree of Life is a set of orders where the "sphere" of mercy had been destroyed, causing an imbalance in life.

Now, obviously the dark side doesn't have demons or a devil (although dark side spirits are close enough, and the way their names tend towards aspects of themselves is mildly interesting), but if we look at the way the dark side corrupts, is seems to get under the facets of personality where people are weakest and creep in, sometimes by inches, and sometimes with a sudden shift towards that darkness. The fact that the Sith are more in alchemy is interesting because the idea of Qlipohthic ideals comes up a lot in Hemrmatic magic that is involved with alchemy and the old traditions that results in groups such as the Golden Dawn.

The idea that Jewish scholars had was that both aspects were part of the world, and people could chose the aspects of the world to interact and follow. Corruption is seen as a corruption of the spheres of the Tree of Life, a metaphysical representation of the godhead and the world itself, as well as a map of what humans could be if they followed the path of study and concentration and became closer to god with the danger being that evil was the flip side of parts of the good.

So, you have a dualistic system that incorporates the good and evil aspects. The "good" side is meant to be the "normal" way that the world works because god is in everything and everyone, and the dark side is the unbalanced portion where something has happened to unbalance a person towards evil.

To me; that's the easiest way to think about it. The "light" side is simply the default state. Not a state of grace, per se, but the state of the universe. The dark side is when some aspect of the universe, whether internally or externally within a person, is corrupted away from the natural order and "evil" takes hold. The old scholars view "demons" as a metaphorical construct, so the demons are actually the darker natures of ourselves given both internal and external form.

Palpatine could be seen as corrupted knowldge and Vader could be seen as corrupted love. The idea that seems to exist in SW is that the "light" side isn't an instant purifier because it's the natural order/state of the universe, and the dark side is the corruption of that, imho.

 

My main argument towards you, Ulicus, is the fact that there have been Light vs. Dark battles in the series of Star Wars where the Dark Side of the Force has been used against the Light Side of the Force and the two of them were antiethical to one another.

1:] The Battle of Palpatine vs. Luke and Leia

Their combined Light Side of the Force ability disrupted control of the Emperor through "Force Harmony" and resulted in him losing control of the Force storm over the moon of Dxun. That was two forces that were antithesis meeting rather than Luke and Leia using the Dark Side to overpower Palpatine's own force.

2:] Exar Kun vs. The Jedi Apprentices

They more or less drove away all of his Dark Side powers by combining the Light Side of the Force so that he was eventually banished to Dark Side Hell (Chaos).

3:] Revan vs. Malak and Revan vs. Bastila

One of the dialogue options is the fact that the Sith are a bunch of idiots to believe that the Dark Side of the Force is more powerful than the Light. It only appears to be and that Light Side users are able to pretty much crush them.

Not to mention this little bit of dialogue.

"Is the Dark Side stronger?"

"NO! No....quicker, easier, more seductive."

And yes, basically Sith Spirits fill the role of Demons in Star Wars. They are a bunch of Fallen Spirits that exist to tempt mortals. Jedi, I made an earlier (bad) comparison to Angels, in terms of Force Ghosts. They're more like Bodhivistas or ascended Buddahs.

Individuals who forego Force Heaven/Oneness with the Force but exist in communion with the Force to guide other mortals.

 

IMO the text makes it pretty clear they are using Force Meld to combine powers, then cast Sever Force on him. So while you are right they didn't overpower him as much as blind him, I don't see the antithesis in the situation.

 

I think that "light and dark" battles are more than possible even by my system, Charles.

Even cases of what appears to be "light energy" (great power spawned by slight use of the Force) combatting "dark energy" (great power spawned by massive use of the Force).

It also goes along with the whole idea that the light side = the Force in balance and harmony.

 

Canonically, it was "Force Harmony" since it was written up as that in the West End Games "Dark Empire" sourcebook.



Force Harmony just gathers the Light Side of the Dark to drive away the Dark Side of the Force.

 

There was a WEG power for it? Hmm.

Well, then it comes back to whether you treat S as continuity or not, which I don't. So it is not a topic worth discussing. At least you have an official basis for the argument. No one can ask for more.

 

No one's ever been seduced by the "down side" of anything.

 

Except Darth Vader.

In the movies where it says he was.

 

It says he was seduced by the dark side, not the down side.

 

WEG is canon, and is treated as such on these boards. What you decide to include in your personal view of continuity is your business, but on the boards, if people want to use it in discussion, it's their call, not yours.

 

There's also a similar power called "Light" in the Jedi training manual that only affects Dark Siders.

It might also be what Jacen used on Omni, instead though.

 

Yes? Your point being?

I haven't seen anyone besides me and Charlemagne discuss the topic of this Force Harmony, and I was the one who contested it to begin with too. And a discussion requires at least two participants. So as a logical consequence, I cannot be accused of telling others what to do. The post was obviously meant as my withdrawal from any discussion of it.

You failed to interpret it this way?

 

It seemed to me from your phrasing that you were trying to set a limit on the conversation. My mistake if I misinterpreted, but in the future if you feel something isn't worth discussing, it would be best not to bring it up at all.

 

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Seriously... is it necessary to start a thread for every little question related to the metaphysics of the Force? I started a thread for all things related to the Force, and yet no one takes anything there. Even when prompted!!!!

Force thread