Why doesn't Ki-Adi-Mundi engender as much animosity as Mace?

While Ki-Adi-Mundi didn't have quite as much screen time as Mace, he was certainly a prominent Jedi in the prequels. Mundi appeared to be as in the dark as the rest of the senior Jedi during the prequels, so why animosity toward Mace and not Ki-Adi-Mundi? Was not Mundi (and Yoda for that matter) as responsible for the fall of the Jedi and Republic as Mace?

From the SW Database:
"When Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn reported a Sith attack during the events surrounding the Battle of Naboo, Ki-Adi-Mundi expressed shock at the notion. "Impossible," he remarked, "the Sith have been extinct for a millennium." . . .

"A decade later, Jedi Master Ki-Adi-Mundi continued to serve on the Council. He was present during one of the gravest crises ever to face the Jedi order: the Separatist movement that threatened to split the Republic. Like most in the order, Ki-Adi-Mundi refused to believe that the movement's architect, former Jedi Count Dooku, was behind its more violent actions."

"When the upper tier of the Jedi Council -- himself, Yoda and Mace Windu -- discussed a possible course of action to remove the Chancellor, Ki-Adi-Mundi advised that the Jedi order would have to take control of the Senate in the interim, to ensure a secure transition of power. Taken out of context, such discourse would be branded treason -- it was a disturbing sign at just how unstable the democracy of the Republic had become."

Thoughts?

 

This from the guy who has a Mace Windu icon.

Seriously, I don't think Ki-Adi gets much flak because he doesn't do as much as Mace does. While Ki-Adi was arrogant, Mace exuded it more in people's eyes. And Mace is the number two man behind Yoda. So as such he's going to take a lot of flak.

 

If animosity towards Mace comes from him being the number two man behind Yoda, I would think we'd see more threads critical towards Yoda. Of course that assumes that there's some logic to the Mace hate.

Mace exuded more arrogance in people's eyes? If that's the case, I wonder how people reconcile that with the quotes above from the databank.

 

Ki Adi, Mace and many other jedi were arrogant during the events which led to the rise of the Empire. I think the reason Mace gets more flak is because he is more openly anti-Anakin than Ki Adi. A lot of people see Mace's lack of faith in him as a reason behind his turn.

 

There aren't many, but there have been ones blasting Mace and Yoda and even Obi-wan.

 

That's one part of the Mace-hate I never understood. Why would anyone hold someone other than Anakin ultimately responsible for Anakin's fall?

 

I have no idea.

 

because sidious also played a huge part on that

 

C'mon Dug, you don't have anything better than that?

 

I don't necessarily agree, but the view seems to be that had some of the senior jedi been more understanding of Anakin and shown trust in him, he may not have turned - or may have been less likely to at least. In the movies, Mace most prominently and consistently vocalises these views.

 

That's one part of the Mace-hate I never understood. Why would anyone hold someone other than Anakin ultimately responsible for Anakin's fall?


because however you look at it the jedi are the ones responsible for training a 10 years old boy who had already formed attachments.no else is to blame for that particular issue but the jedi just like no one is to blame for anakin's poor choices but anakin himself

 

One of the problems with the movies...or, perhaps, one aspect of the movies which is particularly challenging... is the 'chicken or the egg' conundrum... Does Anakin turn out the way he does because of how the Jedi treat him...or do the Jedi treat him as they do because of how he is already?

When the Jedi first examined Anakin, in TPM, I felt like (I suspect) many did..that they were pretty harsh with this young boy. I mean, should anyone...ANYONE?... have been the least bit surprised that the boy was fearful, attached to his mother (for goodness sake!), etc? It wasn't even so much WHAT the Jedi said to Anakin, as HOW they said it. There was zero warmth there.

However...by the time of AOTC... one has to concede there is REASON to be wary of Anakin...to question trust in him. Those inclined to lay a lot of blame on the Jedi doubtless recall the examination scenes in TPM and believe the Anakin in AOTC is the result of bad handling by the Jedi. Those inclined to believe Anakin's personality was basically flawed see it otherwise... as Anakin showing that the Jedi's reservations in TPM were fully justified. When Mace and others question having faith in Anakin, question their trust for him... isn't this the young Jedi who is chafing under Jedi rules, who slaughters the Sand people, who pursues an expressly forbidden romance? Who, by ROTS, needs just a nudge or two to commit NEW atrocities? So is Mace arrogant...or simply prescient? It is tricky.

I mention all of this by way of examining this idea of "Jedi arrogance". I see the Jedi as more stoic than arrogant, although I can understand the latter viewpoint. Someone who is calmly certain they are correct can certainly seem arrogant.

As to the basic question of the thread... Ki-Adi-Mundi has a LOT less screen time, is seen as less of an authority figure (Mace clearly comes off as second in command to Yoda), and thus, I would argue, comes off as more sympathetic...

Shadow

PS - Today, I saw the CHOSEN ONE feature on the DVD. In this feature, the CGI Yoda replaces the puppet Yoda from TPM. And...I have to say...in this case, the CGI Yoda suggests emotion that the puppet simply could not.. Yoda's comments about pain, suffering, the path to the Dark Side..come off, to me anyway as much more sympathetic to Anakin than they did during the first go-round, with the puppet. Changes the feel of the scene (for the better), I think...

 

Nice post Shadow.

The more I think about this and the more I see other views on the boards, the more complex I think the whole thing was.

I sympathise with the jedi. I think they were faced with a bit of a no-win situation in regard to Anakin. There were factors telling them that the boy shouldn't be trained. But if he was the chosen one and destiny was at work, how would the prophecy unfold if they just sent him back out into the galaxy?

In terms of their handling of Anakin, again there was a dilemma. They had a formula for training jedi that had worked for thousands of years, so why should this guy be handled any differently? But he was the Chosen One and he was trained from a late age, so maybe he should have been?

All of this doesn't even begin to consider the fact that Palpatine was constantly trying to undermine everything they did and promote his agenda.

It was a tangly web alright. Little wonder it ended like it did.

 

I think there is also another problem when trying to assign "blame," namely that there is a 10 year gap between TPM and AOTC, where we really don't know how Anakin was treated by the Jedi Council. There is also a 3? year gap between AOTC and ROTS. Obviously the council thought highly enough of Anakin to make him a Knight, even though to my understanding, he never went through "the Trials." So right there it shows that at least in Anakin's (and Obi-Wan's) case, the Jedi were willing to bend the code when they saw fit.

I also agree with the "chicken or the egg" synopsis. It is tough to speculate where the full fault lies, however, IMO ultimate responsibility lies with the individual. It doesn't mean that I can't see why Anakin would make the decision that he does, but it also does not absolve him of blame or guilt either.

What is truly tragic is that upon uncovering Sidious, he initially does the right thing, only to undo that correct decision hours later.

 

Quite frankly, I think it is because it's hard to generate
anything more than thinly veiled smirks to a Jedi conehead.
I never took KAM seriously, in any of the films.
He was just too poorly visualized to impart gravitas.

 

Yes, in light of "Coneheads" there was always the chance that Ki Adi was going to lack gravitas!

 

It is sort of tragic, actually.
He's an interesting voice on the council,
but I just can't take him seriously.
If only Aayla had his seat instead of him.

 

i LOVE ki adi mundi and every other jedi...just call me the jedi lover


as stated above, mace was the first one to doubt everyones favorite hero, anakin, hence all the flak. and in the cartoons, ki adi is actually one of his proponenets...

"in this time of need why do we hold back the chosen one?"-ki adi mundi, after reporting to the council his disasterous encounter with general greivous.

 

Don't you mean the JEDILUVA?

 

Well it's because Ki-Adi-Mundi is not a major part of the saga... sorry but it's nothing more than that. Headlines weren't made when the actor for KAM was cast, but it was for Mace. Yoda doesn't carry as much of the blame in the public opinion because he was part of the redemption process, whereas people viewed Mace's cold attitude as part of the problem with the Jedi.


It doesn't matter what's on the OS. I could go get a bunch of in depth material on some yahoo that never had a line in the movies. Plo Koon anyone?. From the OS...
In the waning days of the Republic, the ranks of the Jedi Order were commanded by a High Council of Jedi Masters who convened in a towering temple on Coruscant. Twelve Jedi sat in a circle to contemplate matters of the Force, and dispatch Knights to scattered crises across the galaxy.
One such Jedi Master was Plo Koon, an imposing alien whose face was concealed behind a forked facemask. His well-muscled humanoid form filled out the traditional Jedi robes. Koon was present on the Council when Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn presented Anakin Skywalker as a prospective Jedi candidate. He also served the Council a decade later when the Jedi faced one of their greatest conflicts: the Clone Wars. Plo Koon was present at the first battle site of the Clone Wars, fighting against Geonosians and battle droid forces in the cauldron of the Geonosian execution arena. Koon served valiantly as a general in the war on many battlefronts in the years that followed.

During the Outer Rim Sieges, Plo Koon was stationed on Cato Neimoidia, flying scouting missions over the bridge cities of the conquered world. It was then that Order 66 was enacted, branding every Jedi in the galaxy as an enemy of the Republic.

Plo Koon's clone wingmen carried out the order, communicated to them directly from Chancellor Palpatine. Aboard ARC-170 starfighters, the clone commander pilot opened fire. Plo Koon's starfighter spun out of control and crashed into the Neimoidian city below.


So the mention on the OS is a moot point. **Edited** That's getting close to baiting, chozn1. There's been nothing said about racism in this thread, let's be fair.

 

As I've posted before, Anakin was mentally ill from the moment he kneels before Palpatine, IMO. There's a genuine condition known as stress-induced psychosis. I believe that Anakin suffered from this, as a result of the immense pressures he was put under. He was being pulled in several conflicting directions, and he came apart.

I agree.

 

so why animosity toward Mace and not Ki-Adi-Mundi?

If youll search, youll find some choice name calling of Ki-Adi-Mundi too. Probably proportional to his screen time.

 

Why doesn't Ki-Adi-Mundi engender as much animosity as Mace?

Well from my point of view Ki Adi is your run of the mill Jedi. Sure he has some lines but we don't ever see him calling the shots. When someone is in a position of authority, there will always be those that find a problem with their decision making or behavior.

To me, the only bad call on Mace's part was insulting Anakin in front of the council. The simple fact of the matter is that had he worded it and explained that the council seats its own members... Anakin may not have felt so betrayed. Instead Anakin was greeted with a condescending tone and a seemingly contradictory statement.

He also had the "i'm smarter than you" tone and he was in fact, a bad mofo so surely people are going to have a problem with him.

It's only natural.