Why had Anakin changed so much?

In TPM he was a loveable kid who loved his mother, liked Padme, and wanted to go to every planet, helping the people in need and freeing the slaves.

In ANH, TESB, and most of ROTJ Vader was an evil villain.

In AOTC he had changed completely from how he was in TPM. It was no longer a selfless love towards Padme and Shmi, it was possessive and selfish, they were attachments.

And having these attachments, having this possessive love, is what causes him to kill the Tuskens in AOTC for his mother's death, and join the Sith in ROTS.





But what caused this sudden, drastic change in Anakin between episodes one and two? There must be an explanation. This between-movies change is the cause of his downfall and extremely important, but never shown, at least not directly.


What is it? What caused it? I hope this thread will bring some life back into this forum.


In MY OPINION it was the fact that the Jedi denied love. The Jedi became an obstacle to those he loved, and that is what caused him to cling on to the memories of Shmi and Padme, become attached, and love them selfishly.


It's the Jedi's fault that Anakin became attached, in my idea. What's yours?

 

Well, you could look at some of the novels(Rogue planet) that explained what happened to Anakin, but as they said in The Phantom Menace, he was too old to begin the training.

There can be nothing that can screw someone up so much that to be separated from those that he loves at a younger age. Anakin's love for his mother was never adequately replaced, and as such, he sought attachment from the next best thing--Padme.

This goes back to the notion that as soon as children are born in the Republic, they are test for Force potential, and given to the Jedi if necessary. The formative years are the most important years for any child, and since Anakin wasn't properly trained to control his temper and so forth, there were going to be problems along the way. It's all very freudian.

 

That's a possibility. I think that the way the Jedi forbid attachments completely is a problem in Anakin's case, and it might have been averted. If Anakin had been raised normally as a Jedi, he'd have been trained from an early age to love, but not to become attached. But Anakin spent 9 years living with his mother, who he had a very strong bond with - and then he went into Jedi training with Obi-Wan, who probably taught Anakin the way any other Jedi would have been taught. I think part of the problem may be a lack of understanding on Obi-Wan's part of the importance of love and personal relationships in Anakin's life. Obi-Wan is a very by-the-book Jedi, and is training Anakin in a very by-the-book way - basically, a Jedi Master trains his Padawan with the assumption that the Padawan has already learnt not to become attached to things. But Anakin hasn't, and Obi-Wan isn't great at dealing with Anakin's possessiveness - all he does is chastise him - "don't let your personal feelings get in the way". There is a certain coldness and lack of understanding on Obi-Wan's part about this. Obi-Wan loves his best friend dearly, of course, but I think there is a lack of understanding.

I have a feeling that, given Qui-Gon's philosophy, if he'd trained Anakin, he'd have been better equipped to deal with Anakin's emotional attachments. I think Qui-Gon would have tried to understand what Anakin was going through, and to gently, over the years, teach him to love but to control his attachments and his greed. Whether it would have prevented Anakin turning to the Dark Side, who knows - but Qui-Gon seems to me to be in a better position to help Anakin deal with those issues. Qui-Gon's death was truly a tragedy for the galaxy - not only might he have been a better master for Anakin, but his connection to the Living Force makes me think that, like Dooku, he sensed the coming of the Sith stronger than most Jedi. I think that had Qui-Gon lived, he might have sensed Palpatine was the Sith before the Clone Wars.

 

The problem is the Jedi Order. It has faults. The whole thing of you can't fall in love, get mattied, and have kids is kind of bogus. I think that it was put into place in order to prevent loved ones from dying which would turn the Jedi to the d=Dark Side. But in reality, Anakin does this anyway. The death of his mother pushed him down the dark path, but I think the fact that he had to keep his marrage a secret also fueld it.

If you have regard for EU, read the following:

In Clone Wars EU it's been shown that not only Anakin was in love. In fact many Jedi did. Corran Horn's biological grand father for example. In the Padawan Pack, there were several romances going on. Aayla Secura and Kit Fisto were in love, but they prevented themselevs from taking it anywhere because of their traning. And even Qui-Gon was in love with someone. If you believe in EU it shows that it wasn't just Anakin who was changing, it was the Order. It's just Anakin was at the front of the change. There is also proof of the change in AotC, allthough in a different respect. Yoda mentions how many Jedi are getting arrogant, even the older, mor experienced.

 

If Order wouldn`t follow the Code that blindly, perhaps they wouldn`t have to worry about their Knights falling to the Dark Side.

There is also Obi-Wan. He is very nice to Luke in OT, kind and helpful. But he wasn`t like that to Anakin. He is so trying to do everything by the book, but he doesn`t understand his Padawan at all, he doesn alow him to think with his own head which is best shown in that scene in Senator`s apartement. If Qui-Gon had stayed alive, I don`t think Anakin would have turned. Qui-Gon was much more *human* than Obi-Wan, he understood things Obi didn`t. The living Force.

Anakin is also to blame for all what happened/will happened to him. His abilities are huge affliction. Anakin is better than anyone else, but he isn`t allowed to go on. He is being held back and that`s why he is o arrogant and stubborn.
I do not agree that his love is so possesive. It`s just different. Anakin, unlike all Jedi, knew love before he started his training. He loved his mum and his friends. He fell in love and he did what his heart told him, not like Aayla and Kit or any other Jedi. But he lost some things in life, other Jedi didn`t (possesion is forbidden) and that is the reason he wants to have everithing in control.

 

'In AOTC he had changed completely from how he was in TPM. It was no longer a selfless love towards Padme and Shmi, it was possessive and selfish, they were attachments.'

-Tion Meddon

I don't think he changed completely. I see Anakin in AOTC as a person, very much in conflict with himself, the struggle between his selfish-side and his selfless-side.

However, it developped clearly towards the darkside.

 

I think the problem was that he received severe beatings at the hands of Han Solo. Han Solo? Yes, it was Han Solo that raised Anakin during the years between TPM and AOTC. Don't believe me? Well, you shouldn't because I'm just typing kooky nonsense. What's the real answer? Because Anakin was too old to be trained. Yoda warned Obi-Wan but Obi-Wan didn't listen.

 

I too, think there was a problem with Obi-Wan' training. Obi-Wan is a great jedi, but I don't find he's such a good teacher. He seems to approach Anakin with a bit of arrogance, maybe even contempt. He not only belittles him frequetly, but he often does so in front of others. And keep in mind this has been going on for ten years. Ten years! I would've tried to smack him at that point.

 

Puberty

 

Anakin was alone and was away from his mother, who was an extremely strong love and attachment in his life that he did not want to give up (hence why they didn't want to train him). From being alone with only Obi-Wan, who had just become a Jedi and was in a way a kid himself when taking on anakin, anakin didn't know what to do with all of the strong feelings of love he had as a kid and he still didn't have a strong parental figure but rather more of an uncle or best friend. Having been an only child of a single mother really adds to this, as single children of single mothers often play both the kid and the father role in the family, and they often become extremely emotional for their age (having been one, believe me, I know what Im talking about). Then he has that obsession for the girl he barely knew but fell in love with instantly, and that tortured him a lot. He didn't know how to deal with girls or how to deal with all the emotions he had, so they just got repressed and eventually changed his character.

GL was really smart in developing Anakin.

And Anakin hasn't changed that much compared to how much people wanted him to change (most fans wanted episode II anakin to be like episode III anakin).

 

I think the only thing that changed was Anakin coming back into contact with his two attachments. He is assigned via Palpatine to Padme's protection, and his mother dies, all within a short period of time. I think this sets off the time bomb that is Anakin Skywalker.

The problem is the Jedi Order. It has faults. The whole thing of you can't fall in love, get mattied, and have kids is kind of bogus. I think that it was put into place in order to prevent loved ones from dying which would turn the Jedi to the d=Dark Side. But in reality, Anakin does this anyway. The death of his mother pushed him down the dark path, but I think the fact that he had to keep his marrage a secret also fueld it.

I disagree. The Jedi Order had been following the code for a thousand years, and by doing so brought peace to the GFFA. No other Jedi were clamoring for a revision, only Anakin was the 'Jedi' it didnt work for(well maybe Dooku but his wasnt a romantic disagreement). Anakin was quite simply not Jedi material. He was to old, had been a slave which gave him authority issues, had an attachment to his mother, a romantic one to Padme and all of this before he even entered the order. What organization changes its rules for a 19 year old? Many people seem to think the order should have made exceptions for Anakin, but why shouldnt Anakin have conformed to the Jedi? Ultimately its how he doesnt conform to what a Jedi is that brings about his downfall, and really I can only blame Anakin for choosing to be that way. Or Qui-Gon for forcing the Jedi's hand in taking him into the order. But that last is another thread.

Also Obi-Wan might have been a better teacher to Anakin, but I think it was more a matter of Anakin needing to be a better student. "Then why dont you ever listen to me?", Obi to Anni. Anni's reply, "I am trying master." Not hard enough IMO. "Hes as wise as master Yoda and as powerful as master Windu(paraphrase I dont remember exact words)." Glowing praise no? Whats his faults then? "Hes overly critical(yeah but is it really underserved? from his actions in AOTC im inclined to think not), he never listens(I never took Obi-Wan to be the dismissive type), he doesnt understand(maybe because Anakin hasnt been raised like a Jedi, has no potential to be a Jedi and doesnt conform to the code like a Jedi)." "He's holding me back. He's jealous(paraphrase)!" I think its more Anakins disrespect for authority, arrogance, lack of emotional control, all of which he displays in spades holding him back. And Obi-Wan jealous of Anakin? I dont think anyone is gonna believe that one, I sure dont. I look at how Obi-Wan treats Anakin in TPM and ATOC and I see no real fault there, his lessons look like sound advice, and his tone doesnt seem either condescending or uncalled for.

To summize, I feel the change we see in Anakins demeanor in AOTC is just the culmunation of all the potential faults in his being trained. The price for his attachment to his mother is fully realized and I believe the price for his attachment to Padme will be fully realized in ROTS. I think the blame for his change needs to be put where it truly belongs, with Anakin himself.

 

Agreed that Anakin is an exception in many ways and responsible for most of his changes and mistakes, but I do believe Lucas is trying to push the idea that the Jedi's system had severe flaws. A thousand years is nice and all, but that's pennies in a jar considering how long the ancient Jedi Order lasted. Whatever they did, the OJO did *something* wrong. Most of it's Jedi were either already discreetly breaking the Jedi Code, finding themselves at odds with it, or just outright ignoring it.


I disagree. The Jedi Order had been following the code for a thousand years, and by doing so brought peace to the GFFA. No other Jedi were clamoring for a revision, only Anakin was the 'Jedi' it didnt work for(well maybe Dooku but his wasnt a romantic disagreement).

Ah, not entirely true. More than 20 Jedi Masters left the order, and there are plenty of washouts who can't make the Jedi cut. The Clone Wars EU really help to show that alot of Jedi were starting to take the same path as Anakin was in terms of attachments and their relationships with people. Something was changing amidst the Jedi, possibly due to the Clone Wars, but naturally repressing the desire to have strong human attachments isn't exactly healthy, IMO. Anakin, having a different history than the others, was able to see this. It's a shame to think that, had he not turned to the dark side, he could have been at the head of some rather beneficial reform to the Jedi system.

This is not to say the Jedi Order didn't have valid reasons for implicating certain policies as it did, but something went wrong. Something that tore apart the Old Jedi Order and was causing corruption in a fraction of the time it did with the AJO.

 

I see his change as something very unrealistic, or at least unrealistic to the viewer who has no idea about what happens between TPM and AotC.

He turns from a kind little kid, who doesn't care about himself at all - into someone who's in desperate search of more power, has a crappy attitude, has a big mouth, and is one hell of a whiner.

Where is the transition? How can an average viewer fill in the gaps of Anakin's personality and his transition from Anakin A to Anakin B.

Also, I must point out another comment about Anakin and his fall to the dark side. When I watched the OT, I always imagined Anakin Skywalker as a kind, caring person (as in TPM) all the way up to his older years, until one very sinister thing seduced him to the dark side.

Now in reality what you have are a whole LIST of small things that contribute to his fall:

-his detachment from his mother
-his love for Padme
-his thirst for power
-his lack of self-control

IMO, Lucas couldn?t decide on which reason to use for his fall to the dark side, so he just got lazy of thinking and decided to put them all in.

 

IMO, Lucas couldn?t decide on which reason to use for his fall to the dark side, so he just got lazy of thinking and decided to put them all in.

Youre kidding right?

 

There have been several discussions on this topic before, so I'll make this short - Anakin can't be the sole one blamed. It's more complex than that and includes Anakin (his love, attatchments, very strong feelings), Obi-Wan (his too strict and by the book, and not ready to take on his own Padawan), the whole Jedi Order (for being inflexible, outdated, distanced) and Palpatine (for being himself of course).

(Tho I'm a lot like Anakin and prefer blaming anyone BUT him *blush*)

 

Someone mentioned puberty, and it seems very much like it. But Anakin's supposed to be 18 (or is it 20?). Most people are over puberty by then, but in AoTC he's still having temper tantrums and conflicting emotions about his authority figure, Obi-Wan, etc., etc. It seems like the timing of AoTC was off a little bit. Lucas should have set the film a few years earlier. But everyone's doing a good job of arguing why, so...

 

Jedi Puberty

 

Anakin is not an ordinary teenager nor an ordinary Jedi. So it would be like this:

puberty + > 20000 midichlorians

 

Its all obiwan fault is jalous is holding me back remember that line??And the lost of is mother is a big factor too

 

You can't take anything that Anakin says at face value. In other words, it is not all Obi-Wan's fault (though Anakin being basically raised by him through his teenage years is a very significant factor).

I don't think it's Lucas's job to explain human nature to the audience in this movie. The change of Anakin from episode I to episode II is very logical given what we saw in episode I (extremely pure and extremely attached Anakin).

If you don't understand human nature and can't see how overly attached Anakin in episode I became overly attached Anakin lashing out in episode II, then that's your problem and not Lucas's. The good films make you think for yourself rather than showing you everything and handing it to you on a platter.

 

ana labris- ME TOO! i do the same thing I relate to Anakin the most and look to blame everyone but him for his turn....we wouldnt last long as Jedi you and I

 

Just because you're nice and innocent as a child, doesn't mean you'll be that way as an adult. There's no telling how a boy will be when he's a man. He's always wanted to be a Jedi, and when he was given the opportunity, he reached a point where he thought he was better than the other Jedi, even the masters. Anakin thought he was better than everyone. That was his problem.

 

tee4jc85, true, good thing I never wanted to be a Jedi, but a Sith. Makes life easier

 

I have a pretty good theory as to what happened to Anakin between TPM and AOTC on a psychological level, and none of it is anything that requires a PHD to explain and analyze. I'll post on it later since I don't have time and it's going to take awhile to compile it all into an essay, but for a more simple answer, I agree with the above that it's a combination of alot of the social and interpersonal influences on Anakin through his teenage years, as well his own psychological problems and unnatural childhood.


IMO, Lucas couldn?t decide on which reason to use for his fall to the dark side, so he just got lazy of thinking and decided to put them all in.

Oh yes, because goodness forbid there be complexity in the psychological motivation of a SW character.

 

I think that there are many reasons Anakin changed so much!Many of them have already been stated but I will state them again!One reason is that he was to old to be trained!There was a reason they trained other jedi at such a young age!
A second reason was that Obi-Wan was way to strict and didn't take into consideration that his apprentice was the chosen one and he restrained him to much!
A third reason was that he was attached to people and then the order tore him away from those attachments!When Luke started his own academy on Yavin 4 his students weren't infants they were children and teenagers and things!Luke turned out ok and his was a young adult when he started his training!
Another reason was that the order was too strict on attachments!Yes many other jedi were in love and obviously it all turned out ok!
I have many more reasons but will sign off for now!