Why I believe Sifo-Dyas was the one to erase Kamino from the Jedi Archives

One thing that many do not discuss, and that is the possibility that Sifo-Dyas actually was the person to erase Kamino from the files of the Jedi Archives.

The question would be why he would do this? I think it would have to do with the fact that he was actually a leading member of the Jedi Council.

Lama Su asked if Sifo-Dyas was still a leading member of the Jedi Council, for which Obi-Wan did not deny. Now one could say that he did not because of what he had just found out concerning the clones and wanted to act like he was fully aware of the clones to the Kaminoans. But if Sifo-Dyas had not been a leading member of the Council before his death, then no doubt Obi-Wan would have reported that the Kaminoans had received false information stating that Sifo-Dyas said he was a leading member of the Council, and thus this would have been a big red flag.

Since Obi-Wan did not mention this, it is safe to assume that Sifo-Dyas was in fact a leading member of the Jedi Council. And it is this fact that makes me believe Sifo-Dyas did actually erase the Jedi Archive files of Kamino, but he did not order the clones.

Whoever order the clones, which I believe was Dooku, had to for whatever reason in impersonating Sifo-Dyas had to let the Kaminoans know he was a leading member of the Jedi Council. So the person knew they could not just be any Jedi, but rather a leading member of the Council.

So what does this have to do with Sifo-Dyas erasing Kamino from the Jedi Archives?

There have been a few here in this forum that have suggested that Yoda may erased the files, and because he did not want this info about Kamino and their ability to create clones(armies)to be found. So instead of Yoda, this was the case with Sifo-Dyas.

Remember Yoda?s words when he said it could only have been a Jedi that erased that file.
?But who, and why?? Sifo-Dyas erased the file to keep it from being discovered; however he copied the file and kept a personal copy of Kamino and its location.

Sifo-Dyas was likely killed because he possessed this information on Kamino. He was killed so that this information could be retrieved, and it needed to find Kamino?s location

Somehow Dooku knew that Sifo-Dyas had erased the file and possessed a copy of the file. Maybe Sifo and Dooku were close and had discussed that the Republic needed an army for the future. But Sifo-Dyas felt something disturbing about Dooku and feared he might do something that would be detrimental. So Sifo-Dyas erased the file to keep it safe, possibly from that of Dooku.

Dooku after becoming Sith hires Jango to kill Sifo-Dyas(see wstraka5 new thread in this AOTC forum) and thus gain the copy of Kamino for its location.

After retrieving the copy from Jango, Dooku/Tyranus orders the clones using Sifo-Dyas's name and then sends Jango to be the clone template. Or should I say hand-picked him according to Lama Su!


Darth Sin!

 

Sin, when you start a thread, you don't mess around do you?


But I think you might be onto something.

 

Interesting. Very interesting, indeed!

In light of your theory, Sin, it seems that creating a clone army for the Republic was Dooku´s idea. That is, if he and the Sith did not work together before TPM. So did they? Maybe that will be a plot point in EpIII!

 

I, too, think you are on to something, but I'm still not buying the Sifo-Dyas as a leading member of the council thing. What if he was just your typical Jedi Master who, as you have theorized, erased said files to keep them from Dooku, and was subsequently killed by Dooku and company for having done so?

Were Dooku to try to use Sifa-Dyas' name as a cover for ordering the clones, wouldn't it appear to be somewhat more genuine if he claimed he was a leading member of the Jedi Council?

Oh well, its all theory, and I imagine we'll remain in the dark until the release of The Ewoks: Caravan of Courage Super Special Digital Edition on SuperDVD.

 

Again, I reiterate that if Sifo-Dyas had not really been a leading member of the Jedi Council, then Obi-Wan would most certainly have told Yoda and Mace that the Prime Minister of Kamino said that Master Sifo-Dyas claimed to be.

This would have certainly said alot that something fishy was up had this been the case. But since Obi-Wan did not report this, and did not appeared shocked by this information when Lama Su asked whether he was still a leading member of the Council; then I think it safe to assume that Sifo-Dyas was in fact a leading member of the Council before he was killed.

I think that as a leading member of the Council, Sifo-Dyas took it upon himself to erase the files of Kamino to keep it from being located. Whether trusted Dooku or not, it is quite possible that this Jedi Master knew anyone learning of the technology of the Kaminoans and taking advantage of this knowledge could use it for the wrong reasons.

And let's remember that Dooku was an idealist, and his views may have expressed that the Republic and the Jedi needed an army. But Sifo-Dyas knew the creation of an army would only create an atmosphere for war rather than peace, so he took measures into his own hands.

Darth Sin!

 

"Again, I reiterate that if Sifo-Dyas had not really been a leading member of the Jedi Council, then Obi-Wan would most certainly have told Yoda and Mace that the Prime Minister of Kamino said that Master Sifo-Dyas claimed to be."

Actually, think about this. It seems pretty obvious that OB1 would know whether or not SD was ever a member of the Council. Let's say, for the moment, that he was not. OB1 hears the Kaminoans refer to SD as a member of said Council, but OB1 knows better. If he knows better, then so do Mace and Yoda. When communicating what he had learned at Kamino to Mace and Yoda, he merely shared the most important facts pertaining to the situation: namely that the Kaminoans claim SD (supposedly dead at the time it allegedly took place, as far as OB1 knows)ordered the clone army with the authorization of the Council and or Senate. OB1 would later make mention of the claim that SD was a member of the Council in his full report. Yes, Jedi do paperwork. How else do you think they got those archives?

So no, there is nothing that would have necessitated him mentioning this trivial bit of information at that moment due to the fact that the overall concern is the creation of the clone army itself and the claims that SD ordered it when he was supposedly dead.. That is all.

When you are communicating info of this nature, you get the main points out. All the little details will go in the full report, paper or verbal.

Dude, I admire your enthusiasm for this theory, I really do. Just try to recognize this one important thing. In the words of Billy Joel...

You may be wrong for all I know, but you may be right.

You may be wrong, but you may be right.
You may be wrong, but you may be right.
You may be wrong, but you may be right.

 

I don't think Palpy or Dooku could've done it.

I mean, Dooku would have been spotted right off. Heck, there's a bust of him in the Archives.

As for Palpy/Sidious, I am pretty sure the Jedi aren't stupid enough to not recognize the Supreme Chancellor dressed in black robes. Think about it...Sidious has only appeared to his apprentices and non-Force users like Federation lackeys.
(And we know from TPM how stupid they are..."After her!THIS one's a decoy!")

 

Why I believe Sifo-Dyas was the one to erase Kamino from the Jedi Archives...because it makes the most sense.

Emphasis on "MOST."

 

I still think that it will be shocking if Sifo Dyas' name is even mentioned in Ep. III. I think the entire Kamino ordeal is pretty much over with. The only relevant information is that a Jedi ordered the clones originally. That to me is the main issue here.

I just don't see Sifo dyas doing something like this. He has never been in a SW movie. Why give such a non-character such an important action? And what were Sifo's motivations? Was he going to leave the Jedi too? Was he going to band with Dooku?? There is nothing in the movies to give any of this much backing.

I believe dooku ordered the Clones and murdered Sifo Dyas to use his name. If not that, then maybe Sifo discovered what Dooku was up to and got killed for it. I think the movie leans much more towards this. Furthermore, GL just does not pick up on things like this in subsequent films. I don't see this loose end ever being tied up on screen.

 

What if Count Dooku forced Sifo-Dyas!

 

"He has never been in a SW movie. Why give such a non-character such an important action? "

You mean like Count Dooku in AOTC??

Never in a SW movie before, in fact not even mentioned. But he had a direct connection to a character we DID know. Was it stupid in AOTC? Yes and no.

As you said, its a major action and to not explain it would be a major plothole. They did it ok in AOTC with Dooku, they can and hopefully will do it again in ep3 with Sifo. It can be done if hes a character we already know (which could make some sense), or if he has a direct connection to a character we already know (which could make MORE sense.)

Either way, EXPLAIN IT PLEASE!!!

 

I like this theory ... I still think Qui Gon had something to do with it all. And I still am convinced that we'll find out it was ALL part of Sidious' evil design ...

d.m.

 

In science, the true answer usually is the most simple one.

To me the simplest answer is that Dooku assumed the name of SD and ordered the clones, recruited Jango and deleted the file. Just one man, simple answer.

Cinematically speaking, I think GL strives to make this clear since he first stresses that Dooku was once a Jedi knight and then stresses again that only a Jedi could erase the archives.

Two plus two, simple math.

Plus, Dooku left the order more or less at the same time than both the clones were ordered and SD was killed.

 

Let's not forget everyone that I suggesting that Sifo-Dyas erased Kamino from the Jedi Archives files. I do not believe he ordered the clones.

I believed the erased the file so that no one could locate the planet and consequently have an army created.

And with that in mind, I think as we get closer to EP III, we are discovering more and more just how important TPM was in establishing what was to come in AOTC and then for EP III.

One thing that is often overlooked in TPM is the many times we had references to armies or the lack thereof.

Qui-Gon's: "I can only protect you, not start a war for you"

Panaka's: "We have no army"! and "The Federation's army is much larger than we thought"

Jar Jar: "We have a Grand army"

And there are many other references in this film to armies.

So in TPM we saw the threat the Trade Federation posed being secretly led by the Sith. Even at the time of TPM, given the size of the Trade Federation alone, the Jedi would have likely been outnumbered had a war occurred at that time.

So when TPM ended, the Jedi, the Senate and the entire Republic knew that the Jedi would not be able to fight in a war.

As I said, the Jedi order knew this, and that would include the likes of Yoda, Mace, SIFO-DYAS and DOOKU.

So what am I saying?? The events at Naboo help prompt the desire for an army.

Though the idea of an army for the Republic seemed like the right thing, and to aid the Jedi; Sifo-Dyas knew that the creation of an army could actually lead to war. This is the same thought of Amidala as she gave her speech before the Senate in the deleted scene.

So believe Sifo-Dyas erased Kamino to keep its location a secret so that no one would have an army of clones created.

Darth Sin!

 

LeeKenobi wrote "I mean, Dooku would have been spotted right off. Heck, there's a bust of him in the Archives."

Your logic is flawed. Here are the facts that contradict your logic:

1. The records were presumably erased at or before the time the clone army was ordered/put into production. We know the army was ordered at or immediately after TPM (10 years ago).

2. Dooku left the Jedi Order around the time of Qui-Gonn's death. It was soon after that when Darth Sidious/Palpatine accepted Dooku as his Sith Apprentice.

Basically, if the Kamino records were deleted around the time of the events of TPM, possibly before Dooku resigned, then who would have questioned a Jedi Master doing what appeared to be normal research in the archives?

Lee Kenobi also wrote:
"As for Palpy/Sidious, I am pretty sure the Jedi aren't stupid enough to not recognize the Supreme Chancellor dressed in black robes. Think about it...Sidious has only appeared to his apprentices and non-Force users like Federation lackeys."

Again, your logic is flawed. While I don't believe that Sidious/Palpy personally deleted the Kamino files, I would find it somewhat plausible if Lucas should choose to go that route. Why? Because the dark side clouds everything . This might also explain how Dooku might have been able to enter the archives after he resigned from the Order. MIGHT .

 

"Lama Su asked if Sifo-Dyas was still a leading member of the Jedi Council, for which Obi-Wan did not deny. "

Well I think it's safe to assume that Sifo was part of the council but here's a question I have: Wouldn't he have been on the council at the time of TPM then?

 

""Lama Su asked if Sifo-Dyas was still a leading member of the Jedi Council, for which Obi-Wan did not deny. "

Well I think it's safe to assume that Sifo was part of the council but here's a question I have: Wouldn't he have been on the council at the time of TPM then?"

First of all, Ret, OB1 was still surprised at his reception to the cloning facility ("I'm expected?") . He was basically playing it by ear, so to speak. Also notice that when Lama Su invited him to inspect the facility, OB1 replied "That's why I'm here." I don't know about you, but I haven't seen any theories claiming OB1 KNEW ABOUT THE CLONING FACILITY BECAUSE HE ORDERED THE CLONE ARMY AND HE WAS REALLY THERE TO INSPECT THEM!!! Why not? Because its ludicrous. OB1 was playing the Kaminoans for all they were worth.

Secondly, your question is a very good one, and I think it answers part of the very theory we are discussing. Nothing has pointed to Sifo-Dyas ever being a leading member of the Council. I think it was a lie presented to the Kaminoans in order to validate the origin of the order for the clone army.

Again, just my opinion.

 

<<Nothing has pointed to Sifo-Dyas ever being a leading member of the Council.>>

You forget that Obi-Wan discusses Sifo-Dyas with Yoda and Mace later in the film. Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi Master.

And it's clear to me that Dooku erased Kamino from the archives. That's why Lucas went out of his way to have the Count mention the "Jedi Archives" in the arena.

-Otis

 

"You forget that Obi-Wan discusses Sifo-Dyas with Yoda and Mace later in the film. Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi Master.

And it's clear to me that Dooku erased Kamino from the archives. That's why Lucas went out of his way to have the Count mention the "Jedi Archives" in the arena.

-Otis"

Otis,
No, I didn't forget. All Mace and Yoda confirmed was that there was a Jedi MAster named Sifo-Dyas. I have never disputed that. He was obviously a real Jedi Master, there's no question about that.

Dooku mentioning the Jedi Archives has nothing to do with who did or didn't erase the Kamino files. All the Jedi know about the Archives. Personally, I am not against the idea that Dooku might have been the one to erase the files, I just don't think your evidence supports your theory.

 

I'm sorry, but how and why would Obi-Wan leave out such an important piece of information when reporting to Yoda and Mace, in that of the Kaminoans believing Sifo-Dyas was a leading member of the Council, and him knowing he was not.

Let's remember that Obi-Wan is on an investigative assignment to uncover who is trying to kill Amidala; but he uncovers yet more in that a clone army has been created for the Republic, and supposedly by Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. So it is of grave importance that he report to his superiors all that he learns, and particularly if the Kaminoans were told he was a leading member of the Jedi Council, and that was a lie.

That piece of information would certainly stand out that something was not right, and that some sort of conspiracy and mystery were at hand.

So with that in mind, the reason I say he did not mention this, is because Sifo-Dyas was actually a leading member of the Jedi Council as Yoda and Mace.


Darth Sin!

 

"So it is of grave importance that he report to his superiors all that he learns, and particularly if the Kaminoans were told he was a leading member of the Jedi Council, and that was a lie."

Yes, it is important that he tell them, but you can hardly call his little holonet call a complete report. It was a brief overview.

Regardless of whether or not SD was a leading member of the council, the most important piece of info is that the Kaminoans claim SD ordered the clone army under the authority of the Senate and or Council. Since OB1 knew that SD had been killed by that time, it becomes obvious that someone lied about something when the clone army was ordered. Who cares if SD was a member of said council? For all I care, SD could have claimed to be Hank Hill, propane salesman extraordinaire! Who this mystery person claims to be is unimportant. His true identity should be of great concern. OB1, being the stalwart Jedi that he is, will probably make mention of the fact that the Kaminoans believed SD to be a leading member of the council IN HIS FULL REPORT, IN PERSON.

 

When Obi-wan reports to Yoda and Mace he calls SD "Master Sifo-Dyas" so I'm guessing that he was on the council. I think Qui-Gon erased the records in the archives because he didn't want a clone army to be created, he tells Dooku (his old master) about it, who goes to Sidious, who then offs Sifo-Dyas and makes him a patsy and puts his devious plan(s) into motion.

Sidious is just brilliant.

d.m.

 

<<Dooku mentioning the Jedi Archives has nothing to do with who did or didn't erase the Kamino files.>>

Well, I can't make you see it if you don't want to. You're looking for evidence, when you should be assembling the clues left in the text of the piece. If Episode II is a mystery, as Lucas has stated, then the clues should be there to lead you to a conclusion, despite the fact that this conclusion will not be revealed until Episode III. And from my examination of the film, the evidence is there.

It's quite simple, in my opinion.

Jango was recruited by "a man called Tyrannus" to go to Kamino. Since Dooku is Tyrannus, we know that he was involved in this part of the plot to create a Clone army. From this, we also see that he has knowledge of Kamino. Since he was a former Jedi, we can assume he had access to the Jedi archives. He mentions the archive in the arena, to me a direct clue to his involvement that has been intentionally placed into the dialogue by Lucas to give the audience yet another connection between Dooku and the erased file.

Again, it all seems so obvious that I'm surprised people are looking beyond it to find another explanation.

-Otis

 

Actually, Otis, I have no problem with the idea that it was Dooku who erased the files.

Previous post in this thread:
"Basically, if the Kamino records were deleted around the time of the events of TPM, possibly before Dooku resigned, then who would have questioned a Jedi Master doing what appeared to be normal research in the archives?"

I posted this in response to LeeKenobi's post:
"I don't think Palpy or Dooku could've done it.

I mean, Dooku would have been spotted right off. Heck, there's a bust of him in the Archives.

As for Palpy/Sidious, I am pretty sure the Jedi aren't stupid enough to not recognize the Supreme Chancellor dressed in black robes. Think about it...Sidious has only appeared to his apprentices and non-Force users like Federation lackeys.
(And we know from TPM how stupid they are..."After her!THIS one's a decoy!") "

So basically, I am not arguing with the possibility. However, the so called evidence I see being presented doesn't really appear to be evidence to me at all. Everyone keeps throwing around all these little one liners as if God came down and said them. I just don't think things are anywhere near as cut and dried. And I wholeheartedly agree with what Green Destiny Sword mentioned...I don't think we'll ever see this tied up on screen.





Is anyone else besides me getting tired of saying "a leading member of the Jedi Council"?

All seriousness aside, I just don't think this particular issue plays that pivotal a role in the overall story. Let's remember now, GL isn't known for making what would be called "deep" movies. It could all be a bunch of surface fluff.

The cool thing is that you all are obviously as motivated about this movie as I am, regardless of who may or may not be right. I say we all just break out some lightsabers and go at it. Who ever is left standing must have been right, yes?

 

Let me say again that in doing this thread, I am theorizing that the person who erased Kamino from the Archives and the person who ordered the clones are not the same.

I do believe that Dooku is the person who posed as Sifo-Dyas, because we know he is Tyranus that hired Jango to be the clone template. Dooku certainly had a large role in the creation of the clone army, that is of no doubt based on the evidence.

But I believe that Sifo-Dyas was the one that erased Kamino from the Jedi Archives because he did not want its location to be discovered. It was for this reason that he was killed because though he erased it from the file, he maintained a copy.

I believe Dooku knew this. And rather than kill Sifo-Dyas himself which would leave evidence that a Force-user killed him, he hires Jango to assassinate him.
Dooku not only gains the location of Kamino, but at the same time he gains the individual that will become the clone template. He is found worthy in killing this Jedi Master.

But you may ask, how would Dooku know that Sifo-Dyas had a copy of Kamino?

I propose that Dooku and Sifo-Dyas were close, and shared many similiar views concerning politics and the Force. I believe that Dooku expressed many of idealistic views to Master Sifo-Dyas, and even that he saw the instability in the Republic as well as the corruption for which could bring war. He expressed that if a full-scale war were to occur, the Jedi would be overwhelmed. Dooku felt it would be necessary for the formation or creation of an army, since the Jedi were merely peacekeepers.

Dooku may have heard of Kamino, and spoke of it to Sifo-Dyas that the Kaminoans could create an army. Sifo-Dyas became quite uncomfortable with Dooku's ideas and feared what he might do. So Sifo-Dyas took it upon himself to erase the files of Kamino.

Darth Sin!