Why wasn't Luke trained to beat the Emperor?

George Lucas has said that Anakin's abilities were greatly diminished after the fight on Mustafar- so much so that he was reduced to being the Emperor's henchman. If that's the case, then why was Luke's final task to defeat him?

Would it have been better to pair up the Skywalker twins at an early age and train them to take on the Emperor and Vader? I know that having them together, using the force, would have created a disturbance that Vader and Palpatine would have detected. But how about having them train seperately?

 

Well, I think this is really a question of whether or not Obi-Wan and Anakin believed that Anakin could be redeemed or not. Personally, I don't think they were training Luke to kill Vader - they were training him to bring him back to the good side. This, in turn, would ultimately destroy the Emperor, because Luke and Vader would work together to do so. It definitely would have been bad to train both twins from birth to destroy the Emperor. Even trained separately, it was too risky. By training Luke first, even if he failed they could still train Leia. If they both trained at once, they would both fail at once in one way or another - if one joined the dark side, the other would surely be killed.

 

good question, and open to many interpretations...

i feel now, in light of ROTS, Yoda realized that the "ways" of the Jedi Council were not perfect and needed time to rethink and regroup and retune his skills.
Yoda also felt he had failed, and needed to exile himself. I feel Yoda felt that Obi and Yoda were no match for the Emperor and Vader and the Legions of Clones at that time...
And also if Obi and or Yoda were to be training the twins, the Emperor/Vader wouldve "felt it".
(example of this is in ESB, i always thought that the reson the Emperor "felt the disturbance in the force of Luke, was because he was with Yoda and training)

Perhaps obi and Yoda figured they would let the will of the force run its coarse...

i dont have any definite answer, but i am interested to see what people have to say/

 

I don't think they were training Luke to kill Vader - they were training him to bring him back to the good side. This, in turn, would ultimately destroy the Emperor, because Luke and Vader would work together to do so.


Obi Wan tells Luke on a number of occasions that Anakin is gone. "He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil". It's possible though, that he was just duping Luke into doing what he had to do.

It's interesting that Padme's last words were that there is still good in Anakin. Maybe Obi Wan keeps that in mind?

 

After Padme's death I don't think anyone besides Luke thought that Vader could be redeemed.

 

Yeah, that's what I think too. But it's interesting because both Obi Wan and Yoda seem to believe that Anakin IS the key to everything. Is it because they still believe in the prophecy that he is to bring balance to the force?

It's interesting because a lot of the concepts dealt with in the original trilogy take on a completely new meaning after seeing Episodes 1-3. I am not sure that George Lucas had even come up with the "chosen one" prophecy when the original trilogy was being written.

 

Here's another interesting thing to think about-

Did the events of Episode 4 rush Obi Wan and Yoda's timetable? If you think about it, Luke would have probably been sitting there a few more years if Princess Leia hadn't been on the run from the Empire, and was seeking Obi Wan out.

If that's true, then it leads to another question- how did Obi Wan and Yoda approach the training of the twins? Did they think the Force would intervene (as it did when it brought everyone together)?

 

No, it did not rush their timetable. It is clear that Yoda and Obi-Wan become more aware of the "living force" as Qui-Gon would call it, and they would have known that the opportunity would come, if they waited for it. The events in the beginning of Star Wars were the very opportunity they would have been looking for. As soon as Luke was attacked by the Tusken Raiders in the Jundland Wastes, and Ob-Wan rescues him, he knew it was time to begin, which is why he chose that time to give Luke Anakin's old lightsaber. Kenobi would have had other opportunities before to give the lightsaber to Luke, but the force wouldn't have guided him to, until then. I don't think they had planned on Obi-Wan dying before Luke could really begin his training in earnest, at that point, Ghost Kenobi and Yoda had to improvise.

 

obi wan shouldve trained luke and leia with yoda as soon as they were born don't really understand sending them off with the lars' and organas. only that lucas wrote himself into a corner and better to not deal with that issue then give some overly convoluted reason for it

 

This has been discussed before. Had either or both of the twins been trained when they were young, their presence in the Force would grow. Vader or the Emperor would have sensed this and have gone to kill not only them, but whoever trained them. As younger kids they would be much more vunerable to an attack whereas if they were older, they would put up more of a fight as well as have some life experience under their belt.


Personally i believe that Luke was given enough training to do 2 things. Firstly, to be able to confront Vader and not get cut down in the first strike. Secondly, to understand the paths to the Darkside and hence be able to recognise them if he came close. In training to confront Vader, in a way, he's also being trained to confront any enemy seems Vader is the most powerful. However, it was Anakins destiny to over throw the Sith. Had Luke attempted to kill Palpatine, the Force would have stopped him, as it did Yoda in ROTS. Although i doubt Obi Wan didn't feel Vader could be redeemed, Yoda placed more faith in the Force understanding Luke (or Leia if need be) could be the factor that make Anakin forfill the prophecy one way or another.

 

If Yoda and Obi-wan had trained Luke and Leia as soon as they're born, they'll risk causing a disturbance in the Force which will put them on the Sith radar. They along with the twins would have been found and destroyed by the Sith Empire which is why they gave Luke to the Larses, Leia to the Organas, and why they had to go in hiding themselves.

As for the topic question, Luke abandoned his training to help Han and Leia so he wasn't fully trained enough to fight the Emperor.

 

i guess you guys convinced me

 

The Jedi's great failure with Anakin was that they constantly told him what to do how and when and why, and when/how not. With Luke they did very little of that. They let Luke figure it out, trusting the Force more than Luke's beliefs. Anakin might not have turned to the Darkside if the Jedi had been less restricting, so that approach probably helped Luke's quest. He did what he felt was right, despite what Ben and Yoda said.
They didn't tell him exactly what to do and how to do it. "You go kill Vader and the Emperor by NOT throwing away your lightsaber, because the two of us couldn't do it 20 years ago" is a silly thought, isn't it? They couldn't think of a good way to destroy the Sith, so let the new generation come up with it.

 

There is one HUGE important fact that all you guys are missing. The original post asked 'Why werent the twins trained to take on Vader and the Emperor'. Well because:
When the Twins were split up in ROTS, Anakin was presumed DEAD.

Yoda and Obi Wan hid the twins as they BOTH thought Anakin was dead and their intention was to hide the two twins from the Emperor and the Empire. That was their ONLY intention at that time.

 

He did what he felt was right, despite what Ben and Yoda said.

Actually, in ANH, Obi-Wan tells Luke "You must do what you feel is right, of course."

 

yeah, that's what I meant, of course
That was the best advice they ever gave him. Ben probably even didn't realize that

I meant 'despite them telling him to go kill the Sith'

 

I never thought about the Force preventing Yoda from beating the Emperor, but that makes sense because I honestly believe that the force wanted both sides had to be purged. So do you think that Yoda sent Luke off to kill Vader because he knew that Vader would destroy the Emperor? I don't know if he thought about it that much, but I do think that he thought Vader was the key to everything, somehow. It's interesting because Obi Wan and Yoda clearly do not agree about some things, and I wonder how Luke would have been trained if Obi Wan had lived.

We all know that in reality, Obi Wan was killed because there was "nothing for him to do in the third act". Lucas didn't want him standing around, so he gave him a noble death. But working within the framework of the story, it's interesting because you get the impression that Luke would have been trained very differently. Maybe to kill the Emperor, I don't know.

I do believe that The Force is completely re-interpreted by the two remaining Jedi, through the help of Qui Gonn Jinn.

 

I think if nothing else, Yoda and Obi Wan decided to be passive when it came to Luke and Leia. They may not have even had a strategy, or any kind of timetable.


I don't know that Old Republic Yoda and Obi Wan would have taken that approach, either. I think Qui Gonn Jinn and their humbling defeat had a LOT to do with it. It's interesting because if you think about it, the Jedi's struggle with the Sith was always a point/counterpoint situation. The mysterious Sith leader would make a move, and the Jedi Council would react. That goes on for over 10 years, all the way through to the end, when the Council seals their fate by making Anakin spy on the Chancellor. Point/Counterpoint. Point/counterpoint.. on and on and on.


But in episodes 4,5, and 6? We see none of that from the remaining Jedi. It COULD be out of fear- fear that they would be discovered, fear that the twins would be killed, etc.. but I like to believe that they actually learned their lesson and were able to "let go"... let the Force guide them, instead of trying to use it to achieve the results that THEY wanted.

 

As for the topic question, Luke abandoned his training to help Han and Leia so he wasn't fully trained enough to fight the Emperor.




So you think that had that not happened, Luke would have stayed on Dagobah much longer, learning how to take on the emperor?

That's a good point, because if you think about it, maybe the only reason why Luke has to face Vader at all is because he made the mistake of fighting him in the first place. His final task was to face him, so he could conquer his fears.. among other things. At THAT point, he might be able to face the Emperor. But Vader happens to finish the job for him.

 

We have an edit function. Use it, please.

 

An edit function? For what? You might want to use the "quotes" function so the person in question can know what to edit.

 

He means put all your thoughts in one post so you don't post many times in a row.

I'll have more to say later when I'm not dead...

 

thats right and logical, but that doesnt answer why Lucas did it that way.mynameismyown is right and gives a real world answer.

 

Ugh. I have edited this 2 times already because I wrote something I shouldn't have. Rather than have FOUR messages devoted to that edit remark (his comment, my rebuttal, your rebuttal to me, and my rebuttal to you), I would really rather stay on topic.


Back to the lecture at hand, I think it works within the framework of the store and what we know of the force to have the two seperated. Besides, it's just common sense- if they were somehow found out about, they would have both been destroyed. So I don't think Lucas wrote himself in a corner in that respect.


What is interesting though is that they chose to do nothing for 17-20 years (depending on how old the twins are). I guess we can assume that Bail got word out to Obi Wan what was going on with Leia, but clearly there was no instructions on how to raise her. She was as force insensitive as they come- which explains why Vader never sensed who she was when they met. Luke on the other hand, was watched over and had occasional run ins with Obi Wan. Nothing big, just some advice here and there. This is a stark contrast to how the "old" Obi Wan and Yoda would have handled it- the ones of the old republic era lived by strict rules. That era of jedi masters probably would have had Luke trained to tackle the Emperor from day one.

 

I think that Yoda understood the way to defeat Vader was through his children. Whether defeat meant teaching them so they'd be able kill or redeem him is the question. I think Yoda had enough vision to know that Luke would pull emotionally at Vader and hence Vader would turn and destroy the Emperor.

As for Yoda vs the Emperor in ROTS, watch the symbolism Lucas put in when Yoda's robe falls and catches on the pipe. This is the Force telling Yoda he wont win this fight, it's time to hang up the robes and retire.

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[quote=-maynard-][quote=Darth_Falcon][quote=mynameismyown]obi wan shouldve trained luke and leia with yoda as soon as they were born don't really understand sending them off with the lars' and organas. only that lucas wrote himself into a corner and better to not deal with that issue then give some overly convoluted reason for it[/quote]

This has been discussed before. Had either or both of the twins been trained when they were young, their presence in the Force would grow. Vader or the Emperor would have sensed this and have gone to kill not only them, but whoever trained them. As younger kids they would be much more vunerable to an attack whereas if they were older, they would put up more of a fight as well as have some life experience under their belt.[/quote]

thats right and logical, but that doesnt answer why Lucas did it that way.[b]mynameismyown[/b] is right and gives a real world answer. [/quote]

If you want a real world answer then you'll have to go ask Lucas himself when he actually decided that Leia and Luke were brother and sister. If it was Post-ANH release then the real world answer was that he was writing a story to the tones of a myth where the Hero is generally someone from a small unknown place and Lukes backstory was unclear. Pre-ANH, then perhaps knowing the backstory of Luke/Leia and Anakin, he did actually come up with the "force presence becomes noticable theory" or still remained on the tracks of an ancient myth where Hero babies are hidden at times of great turmoil.

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[quote=Banmeifyoumust]Ugh. I have edited this 2 times already because I wrote something I shouldn't have. Rather than have FOUR messages devoted to that edit remark (his comment, my rebuttal, your rebuttal to me, and my rebuttal to you), I would really rather stay on topic.[/quote]

He is the mod of this board, i would try and do what he's suggesting :)