Would the Exile count as a Sith??

The Exile is never officially Sith as the light side ending is the canonical, so at some point he may be close to being a Dark Jedi because of the reasons your mention, but he never crosses the line and becomes a Sith. I don´t think that one can be a Sith without knowing it; it´s a conscious decision to become a one. One can be a Dark Jedi and not realise it, but not a Sith. And one can also claim that based on what we learn from Traya´s teachings in the game that the Exile doesn´t receive anything specific Sith lore in the canonical - light side - version.

 

If anything, the Exile embodies the "Grey Jedi" paradigm that we've seen throughout the saga -- which the game even goes as far as mentioning. His place within the Force illustrates rather vividly the Hindu duality/non-duality principle, despite the Exile's connection to various Sith Lords throughout this period -- in Vedic terminology, only the "Creator" or "Paramatman," exists in that timeless state.

Interestingly, we cannot refer to Paramatman as a "male" or "female," because it is without gender...not unlike the game's allowance for selecting one's gender. Being beyond time and space, Paramatman is also beyond nature and its qualities, which embodies much of the Jedi Order's attitudes during this era and in later ones.

Individually, all the Masters seemed to think highly of you when you're "Light-side" to a degree, then after talking it over, they suddenly find you too dangerous to remain connected to the Force -- when you're in fact the only one who isn't apathetic. The Sith and the Jedi hide from each other, and only the Exile and Darth Nihilus dare to strike either side in the open. Without the Exile, Telos would be devoid of all life, thanks to Nihilus, and no one would've stopped him. Fully comprehending the fact that he is a wound in the Force -- thus making him too dangerous -- is important, but it could be overlooked, after all, since the Exile was virtually the only one possessing the power to fight the Sith threat.

(The whole conflict didn't turn out the way I originally would have predicted, because I thought the Jedi would have finally done something to offset this, but there you go.)

 

Along with not consciously choosing to be Sith (in the canon LS version), Exile is not made a Sith by a Sith Lord, live or dead. Of course,DS you can become a Sith, but DS isn't official canon.

 

Not all dark siders or Dark Jedi are Sith. And not all those who use dark side powers fairly regularly are dark siders. Look at Kyle Katarn in Jedi Academy. When you fight beside him on Byss he runs around a lot throwing Force lightning at the Imps and the cultists. Force lightning is generally a dark side power, but there are some who do run around using it who aren't dark siders.

 

The Exile is not a Sith Lord, but he is not technically a Jedi Knight either.
The Jedi Council was clear on that single point, he was no longer a Jedi Knight, and had he stayed with Revan, would have been a very dangerous Dark Lord.

The Exile seemed to be a tool, a necessity fashioned by the force in an attempt to regain balance.
Although his part in TSL was weak, Nihlus represents one of the most powerful Dark Lords (was he technically Sith? Kreia thought differently) in the history of the galaxy.
The Exile was a lesser version of Nihlus, therefore the only power capable of stopping him.

The KOTO Jedi and Sith distinctions always bothered me.
I assumed that Revan was indeed a Sith Lord, having trained with original Sith. However, Kreia?s revelation that Revan met no Sith Empire means, technically, Revan was a Dark Lord, Dark Jedi Master, whatever, but not a Sith-proper.

Indeed, I think the last proper Sith was likely Kressh or Sadow, I?m not even sure if Bane was descendant from the Sith Empire.

Also, as per Yoda?s statement, the moment you use the Dark Side it will begin to dominate your destiny.
Katarn, Revan, and Luke might not be Sith, but they are not pure Jedi.
Each one fell, almost fully, to the Dark Side and almost did not come back.

These Jedi introduce something of a conundrum to the definitions.

 

The KOTO Jedi and Sith distinctions always bothered me.
I assumed that Revan was indeed a Sith Lord, having trained with original Sith. However, Kreia?s revelation that Revan met no Sith Empire means, technically, Revan was a Dark Lord, Dark Jedi Master, whatever, but not a Sith-proper.

I might, and quite possibly am, wrong, but didn´t the Sith Academy on Korriban predate Revan´s turn to the dark side? I remember reading somewhere on these boards that it was established by Exar Kun and that there would have been minor Sith Lords between Exar Kun and Revan on Korriban.

Secondly, in KOTOR 2 it is hinted by Traya that Revan himself could have been from the True Sith Empire. Or at least that´s how I interpreted what she told about Revan´s background.

 

Revan was also corrupted by the Sith Planet of Malachor V - And I don't know how much more sithy you can get than that place. (Except that the game designers made it less than immpressive)

 

" I assumed that Revan was indeed a Sith Lord, having trained with original Sith."

No, they just followed the teachings and laid claim to the title of Sith. They were simply fallen Jedi who coverted to the Sith religion like Ulic and Exar. They were Sith by defacto, there was no "True Sith" present in the known galaxy to challenge their claims.

 

I assumed that Revan was indeed a Sith Lord, having trained with original Sith

Revans master was Kreia, but she fell to the darkside after the Jedi Civil War, consumed with guilt over Revans fall. It was then she travelled to Malachor V and was consumed by the dark side, becoming the Sith Master of both Sion and Nihilius.

When he became a sith, he was corrupted by the Sith teachings present on Malachor V. He was not trained by them, however.

(It would be interesting to see how light side Revan (canon) would react if he returned to Malachor V with the Exile running the Trayus Academy (non-canon))

 

Something interesting to note, Revan never fell to the Dark Side. From what I gathered from Kreia he/she used the Dark Side, but never bent to its will (does the Force have a will? Oh well, a subject for another thread I suppose). This struck me as odd, because everything we've seen thus far (Vergere aside) suggests that one can never control the Dark Side. Believing that they could do so is the initial failing of all Sith Lords, their overconfidence in their powers. Yet Revan was not defeated due to overconfidence. I would prefer to think that it was trust that was the supposed Dark Lords undoing. He/She trusted his/her lifelong friend, Malak and was rewarded for this trust with a knife thrust into his/her back (figuritively of course). Strange.

As to the Exile, canon says that the Exile remained true to the Jedi ideals (or at least did the right thing), yet he/she was trained by a Dark Lord. Granted, Kreia was a "fallen" Dark Lord, but she was a Dark Lord none the less. Would putting Kreia's teachings into motion make the Exile a Sith? I don't think so. Kreia's beliefs were... confusing. I've gone thru the game at least six times since I bought it nearly a year ago, and I'm still trying to wrap my mind around some of her philosphies, yet one thing I do understand, is that they aren't evil. Dark maybe, but not evil.

For example, she sometimes admonished you for helping others. Initially I thought that to be a rather evil perspective. Yet in time I came to realize that what she was saying was true. From a certain point of view. By taking on other people's responsibilities you strengthen yourself, yet weakin those you saught to "help" as well. I don't think she ment to abandon others to their fates, but to not step in and handle a situation that the "victim" could handle themselves.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that while they may employ ideals that that particular order upheld, that doesn't make them evil.

Are they Sith?
No.

Are they Jedi?
No.

They are simply people, trying to do what they felt to be right. Regardless of their choices, or... conditions.

Sometimes the most kind and necessary decesions one must make, are cruel ones.

Canon Revan and Exile embody the choice Anakin should have made in Episode III. Sometimes, in order to save the ones you love most, you must let them go. Sacrifice.

 

Key words emphasized. Kreia's the only one who believes Revan didn't fall, which to me says more about Kreia than Revan. Kreia believes that for Revan, the goal of defeating the greater threat justified what he did. Now that Revan fell in the process of trying to protect the galaxy in his own way I think is fairly certain; Goto comes to a similar conclusion on his own (specifically, that he avoided damaging key infrastructure and military capability). Rather than the opposite of Anakin, I think this is Anakin all over again; while his intentions may have started out good, the Dark Side twisted them. In his own mind, and Kreia's as well, he believed he was doing the right thing, namely, protecting the Republic by eliminating the Jedi who he saw weakening it in order to take it over, make it stronger, and fight against the True Sith or whoever. Now, did he stay with this ideal, or rather did he instead become lost in the "conquering the Republic" part and make it about forming his Sith Empire to protect? Kreia believes the former, I think that given every other case we've seen of what happens when people with good intentions use the Dark Side, it ended up as the latter. And then there's the indirect consequences of his actions; while Malak's actions (which everyone I think would agree were just destruction and conquest for their own sake) were Malak's decision, as the one who trained him Revan certainly bears some responsibility. Malak, to put it mildly, is not entirely stable, and I think Revan overlooked that in his friend. And then there's the results of uncovering the Trayus Academy, which can be directly laid at Revan's feet; namely, the corruption of Force-users into his Sith forces, which ultimately resulted in Sion, Traya, Nihilus, and their legions. Nihilus, too, owes his existence (rather, his currect state) to the decision to use the Mass Shadow Generator, again, a consequence of Revan's choices.

I'd say Revan certainly did fall to the Dark Side, only that from Kreia's point of view, since his goals were what she saw as admirable, she considers him not to have fallen. Also, he was her apprentice, so it's also probably something of a justification for what could be seen as her failure.

 

Meh. Gameplay mechanics. And it's Vjun, not Byss.

On the Exile -- he never recieved any Sith training, so he can't be a Sith. If you discount the fact that the LS story is canon, DS Exile could have studied up on the Sith lore in Malachor and become a Sith Lord. But he was never one in the game -- it was just a cool name for Obsidian to sling around when you go dark.

And Revan definitely fell. He may have had good intentions, but he fell. Sith Lord, folks. Massive war. Murdering his former companions. Dark Side. And for whoever said he wasn't a Sith Lord, we see a precedent set in canon that one can become a Sith simply by receiving Sithly knowledge. Revan definitely studied up on his Sithdom. Also, if you don't think that's legitimate, Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma were dubbed Sith Lords by the spirit of Marka Ragnos. So they have been declared Sith Lords by a genuine, straight-up, old-school Sith Lord.

 

Lord_Hydronium: I don't think you understood what Kreia was trying to say. To fall to the Dark Side really means that you become a different person entirely, like from Anakin ot Vader, or any other "I'm corrupted into something I used to fight against" Sith or Dark Jedi. What I think she was trying to say is that Revan never had that happen. He was always Revan, and never was changed by the Dark Side. Revan changed himself, and became, of his own free will and accord, what he needed to be.

 

and Kreia/Traya's perspective of Right and Wrong is a LITTLE skewed to say the least...

 

There's a dichotomous relationship between Darwinist, "cull-out-the-weaker-strains-so-the-stronger-will-flourish" stances taken by Revan and Kreia, and the whole ex post facto inclination toward redressing moral balance that we see in the Exile. This is why I frequently specify free moral will in discussions such as these. The term "free will" typically means "free moral will," in that we take it for granted that choices between good and evil are both included.

That would mean some type of given faith in free will, but there really is no hard evidence that either free will or destiny determine what humans actually do in the world. Also, the term "free will" is a misnomer. More apt would be the description "restricted or disciplined will, influenced by our society, our upbringing, and our inherited genetic makeup."

An excerpt from a conversation between the Exile and Kreia concerning Revan and his alleged philosophical propensities, both before and after his Sith-turn:

"What else do you know of Revan?"

"I know more...but it may not be enough for the answers you seek."

"What caused Revan to fall, to betray the Republic?"

"'Fall'? Ah, already you presume too much. You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him."

"But Revan was a monster, a..."

"Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore? And that is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew. The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil.

"I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again -- someone who was willing to wage war to save others. But that is my belief, since I knew Revan from long ago...as a master knows an apprentice."

"You trained him?"

"He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own, and learning he was more than what he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he learned all he could, had other masters...that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi -- except how one could leave them forever."

"What was Revan like as a student?"

"Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force. Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul."

"What do see when you look at me?"

"You are different. When I look at you, it is like staring at the death of the Force."

...Which makes rather apparent that his ideals and his methods later in his life were (in some fashion) shaped by his own innate predispositions...the choice of an amoeba between engulfment of food particle A and food particle B could be a choice between two "good" options in that sense, assuming that the organism's actions are causally determined.

As pointed out above, Revan truly was Revan, adapting and shaping himself to fit the demands of the moment...but he was equally as much a Sith Lord as much as the Exile wasn't.

 

The poster above was right, Revan didn't 'fall' in that involuntary manner, he 'chose' the dark side, fuly conscious fo the risks and rewards, in full control over is actions.

As for Revan's entitlement to the title of Dark Lord of the Sith . . .he wasn't annointed, either at Malachor V or elsewhere, that much is clear ('He met no Sith Empire'). The standard version is that, already Dark Side and searching for the Starforge after the Mandalorian Wars, he came to Korriban, where the Sith survivors of The Sith War and the Cleansing of the Nine Houses were bickering between themselves over the title (which *was* legitimately derived from Exar Kun's claim). There, Revan and Malak, defeated the Sith, then Revan defeats Malak, and rightfully claimed the title of Exar Kun's heir.

 

If by "changed by the Dark Side" you mean literally affected by the Dark Side itself as a physical thing, perhaps not. But like all uses of such power, I would say that the Dark Side did affect Revan in what he became in wielding it. Unfortunately, all we know of the Jedi Revan is filtered through either Kreia or the Council, both of whom have pretty strong biases. But what a lot of people mention is Revan's charisma. That when he spoke, people listened. And when he called them for the Mandalorian Wars, they came. But after Trayus, both near the end of the Wars and during the Civil War, we see different tactics; Revan actively attempts to convert Jedi, through either breaking them at Trayus or putting them in the midst of slaughter designed to erode at their views. This is very different from the man who got Jedi to break from the Council just by asking. This shows a man who must turn to force and violence where once he was content with people voluntarily choosing to join him.

There's also the matter that to fight the True Sith, Revan was perfectly willing to use their own methods and power, via Trayus Academy. Is that not "becoming what you fight"? And he didn't just sacrifice himself to the Dark Side, or Kreia might have a point. As mentioned above, he brought other Jedi and Force-sensitives there, to intentionally break them. His goal, judging by what we hear from HK and Atton, was to convert the Jedi to the Dark Side and eliminate those who would not. He wasn't content with just whipping them into shape to fight the True Sith; he had to have them fall to the Dark Side as well. His techniques as well; Atton refers to it as "breaking" Jedi, HK talks of having them commit massacres. At his core perhaps he wanted to protect the Republic; in that, I somewhat agree with Kreia. But at his core, Anakin still wanted to protect his family. As it happens, it turns out that what they were at their cores mattered less than the actions they took (and nicely enough, in both cases their cores came through in time to make a difference). Now, where I do agree with Kreia is what the Council did; they removed that aspect of the Dark Side within him, stripped away what he had become, and left behind the basic core of the man who wanted to protect the galaxy. This, I think, is the truest picture of Revan before he found Trayus, before he saw the power of the Dark Side as a solution to the problem of fixing the galaxy (a solution that, as it happened, created a whole lot more problems in the form of the other Sith). Now, of course, he can choose this path again, but it's interesting that canonically, he decides not to, even when he gets his memory back and remembers the threat he turned to face before (well, I'd assume so, since nobody in KOTOR II mentions him going dark just before he left).

I guess it also depends on how you define "fall". Palpatine, for example, was always in control of his actions (well, until the clone insanity thing, but just talking prequel era) and made every evil choice he did consciously and aware of its results (and given his penchant for seeing the future, often very literally aware). Did he fall when he became a Sith, or was that just who he innately was? Perhaps "turning" to the Dark Side is a more accurate term.

 

>>As in direct links to Exar and thus Freedon and thus Naga Sadow and the True Sith???<<

Which is now fully reinforced by the NEC -- it states that enough Sith disciples survived the Great Sith War and fled to Korriban, Ziost, and the old Empire's space to continue the line directly to Revan.

Meaning that the two (or more) Dark Lords killed on Korriban by Malak and him could've been from Kun's own inner circle, taking up the titles after his death, exactly as we've seen done by Traya, Sion, and others.