Years later, I still don't like the fact the Yuuzhan Vong weren't executed.

They were responsible for over 360 TRILLION deaths and they get to leave w/their little planet and ride off into the distance.

 

They were exiled.

 

My first thought when I read this was Darth Hitler......

 

Yeh, but what's stopping them from ever coming back? The final battle scene(from memory) they had over 5000 ships and the good guys only came up w/less than 2000?



BTW, KnightDawg, Did you forget they were responsible for over 360 TRILLION DEATHS? Wasn't like they were peaceful or anything.

 

Well....future SW EU writer's need something to write about in the not-so-distant future.

 

I hear ya, but it bothers me that they pretty much got off w/a warning. I know by me saying "executed" wasn't the best wording but if the best the entire galaxy could do was summon up less than 2000 ships against their 5000 ships, what would ever stop them from coming back and taking over? Even though I loved the series the death of Chewie and Anakin plus the trillions of others were useless IMO. At least the Empire was reduced to a fraction of what it was.

 

Admiral Daala could come back and stop them. If things get too tough she could call Grand Admiral Grant out of retirement.

 

Well, um, that's too bad. I'm afraid I can't help you with that. Me, I'm happy with the fact that the Jedi did the Jedi thing and didn't genocide an entire species because their leadership and religion were screwed up.

 

Even if they were responsible for trillions of deaths? Heck, the Nazi's did less than that and nobody has a problem w/executing all of them.

 

I not a Jedi thing to do to execute the Vong. That's why they didn't use Alpha Red. Plus, Sekot and them belong together.

 

On a side note....since Earth is canon in the SW EU, I think it would be kinda cool if the spacecraft, The Event Horizon actually traveled to the Yuuzhan Vong world and that's what caused the original crew to act the way they did. That was my first vision when I first read about the Yuuzhan Vong in the novels.

 

LordVader66,

Is it more important to protect a violent race than to protect innocent masses?

 

It's the same deal with Kyp Durron, really.

 

Couple of points

- The YV didn't get off freely. They were confined to one planet, were disarmed completely and their entire social structure (the Caste system) was broken down and reorganised.

- Your comparison with the Nazi's is a poor one. Not every German was culpable for the crimes of the Nazi's, and even for Nazi party members, it was really only high level officials or those who had committed truly heinous acts who were executed. Many were imprisoned for varying lengths of time and eventually released back into mainstream society. Similarly, with the YV, most are not culpable for the crimes of a few - and most of those who were (Shimmra, Onimi, Tsavong Lah, Nom Anor, Shedao Shai etc.), were dead anyway.

- Jedi would never, ever allow for the genocide of an entire species, no matter how heinous their crimes.

 

You make very good points. When I made the comparison I was strictly speaking of Hitler and the SS, not every German. On the other hand, would the entire galaxy share the same view as the Jedi?

 

*cough* Sith *cough*

 

The question is, what were the other alternatives? Your analogy with the Nazis doesn't work; nobody executed members of the Hitler Youth. In fact, Germany was helped to recover economically, in marked contrast with the aftermath of the First World War, where reparations had crushed the nation and directly contributed to the rise of Nazism. Crush the defeated nation or race, and you guarantee an enemy to rise again. And we can see in Legacy that, as regards the Yuuzhan Vong, it seems to have worked.

You're also forgetting that those ships were all destroyed, btw, and that the Yuuzhan Vong essentially have a caretaker in the form of Zonama Sekot as well as a new homeworld.

 

Jedi didn't seem to care much when I read it. Vergere was the only one to take action against Alpha Red. The jedi just basically said "Oh no that would be bad."

 

J k Dart,

Didn't realize the Yuuzhan Vong fleet was destroyed? Did I miss that somewhere? Have to admit that the only EU I've read since NJO in Legacy of the Force and that's only been the first 3 books.

 

Jedi usually try to act legally until its extreme, and then they break laws. Alpha Red was a threat, and if the Jedi did go and blow up the ship carrying it, then what? The GA would still recreate it eventually, the GA would be mad at them, the GA and Jedi would be divided (again) and that would just make winning the war harder.

Anyway, by the end of TUF, the war was over. GA forces were winning, Coruscant was taking, and most important of all, the Yuuzhan Vong supreme leader was dead. Most of the Vong probably didn't know that Onimi had been pulling the strings, but they saw their Supreme Overlord's vessel blow up, which meant he was dead, as otherwise, the Supreme Overlord's veseel would never be destroyed, at which point they gave up.

Aside from the Jedi, the GA isn't going to execute an entire species that has surrendered. And the Vong aren't completely alien. Sure, their society and religion was screwed up, but their minds aren't too different from most of the sentients' of the galaxy, so co-existence is possible. Once the Vong gave up, they left their ships, weapons, etc., and the GA got rid of them.

Oh, the YV War caused tons of damage, but that doesn't mean the GA condoned genocide, except as a very last resort. Otherwise, might as well completely destroy the Empire, and any other power that had ever opposed the New Republic. The Vong commited a lot of crimes, but they were punished (somewhat). Redemption/forgiveness or at least attempts at rehabilitation is usually more of the western civilization way (which of course is the predominant philosophy in Star Wars).

 

Exactly.

 

First, the Sith aren't a species, they're a cult so can't be genocided.

As to the main topic, by the end of TUF those of the warriors that weren't dead went off to immolate thmselves with their ships in the nearest sun, that left the rest of the YV society which is the really contested point: How much, if any, of the YV were truly non-combatent? From what we know of the YV system it was a totalitarian command structure, thus everyone supported the war effort - so are not all then guilty, to some degree, of those 365 trillion deaths? The idea that there are YV innocents is hard to argue. Yet if guilt there is, what is the appropriate sentence?

 

There's no "they." The problem is that no one bothered to point out the Warrior Caste was MOSTLY WIPED OUT. It was a badly told ending but the fact was that essentially you're applying Always Chaotic Evil to the storyline when the author was attempting not to do so. You don't even need to change canon to realize the Vong were pretty much fought to the end of their species.

The number of dead Yuuzhan Vong include the following: Warlord Shimmra, Tsavong Lah, Nom Anor, pretty much the entire Vong population of Coruscant that Shimmra set on fire like Hitler wanted to do, Onimi, and God knows how many other people. Remember that Half of their Warrior Caste was dead by Destiny's Way. Then we had the Battle of Elbaq 9 and so many other conflicts that might well have equalled that number.

The Yuuzhan Vong were using Surge Coral Soldiers because most of their troopers were dead by the end of the war.

For me, I consider the Yuuzhan Vong ending to be more or less explicit that the only survivors of the war are mostly the Worker and Shamed One castes. There's members of the Old Castes alive but the Yuuzhan Vong race was LIBERATED by Luke Skywalker as opposed to being defeated militarilly. I know people have forgotten what it's like to have a foreign power come in and liberate people from an oppressor without hideous complications post-war but that's what happened.

And seriously, what's so special about 360 Trillion when the Empire killed X *BILLION* people? It's a gratuitous number but both are beyond anything ANYONE in the world of Earth from Hitler to Stalin EVER did. Metalorn was probably 250 or so Billion people given it was an entire City-Wide Planet and no one argues the Seperatists ever need to be destroyed completely.

 

And if Vader hadn't conveniently been mortally wounded but had been taken off the Death Star by Luke, would people be complaining that Luke should have executed his father for crimes against sentience? Or would the notion that mercy and redemption is always the preferable goal have still been the message of the films?

I suppose, practically speaking, should Vader have survived he would certainly have had to stand trial, but again, if the sentence were life imprisonment or exile or labour in reparation - anything except execution, because that would render Luke's actions on the Death Star sort of moot - we're talking a similar fate to the Vong.

That being they were exiled, confined to a single planet (sort of a cell for a species if it makes you feel better), and had their population and society decimated. If their cell's conditions were less harsh than Vader's would certainly have been then that's because we're talking about the average citizenry who took up arms on the loosing side. Not Onimi, Shimmra, Tsavong Lah or Nom Anor.

The Empire killed billions, but no one is shocked or angered that the NR didn't execute the entirety of the Remnant. We're satisfied that the heads of the worst parts of the regime were dealt with. Perhaps they weren't as effective as the Vong; perhaps less alien; but we're talking about a regime that considered planetary destruction an acceptable deterrent.

When you get right down two it, there are two lines of thought that need considering:

1) In a real world context, as has been mentioned, treating a conquered nation uniformly cruelly, demanding reparations, etc., is almost guaranteed to make future enemies of them. A la Germany after WWI. Treating Germany poorly at that point led to a political climate where Hitler could take power. Learning from history, treating the Vong as you suggest would guarantee them as future enemies, and mean that you'd have to commit resources to continually oppress and keep them down so that they could never act on those impulses. Assisting with rebuilding and allowing the nation to get back on its feet with a modicum of grace, is more likely - not guaranteed but more likely - to lead to peaceful relations in future.

2) In a Star Wars context, this is a trilogy of films which has an over riding message of mercy and redemption. The defining moment in Luke's life - per the films - and his committment to the Jedi way, is forgiving a man who is guilty of mass murder and war crimes and refusing to believe that he deserves nothing but death.

In the Star Wars universe, if you are a good person, you forgive people.

If it's good enough for one man who truly did commit attrocities, with no excuse more valid than, I was a bit screwed up as a kid and fell in with the wrong Senator, then why isn't it good enough for an entire species who have each, individually, probably done far, far less than Vader ever did.

 

Ah, beccatoria, you got there first. I was just about to say that I suppose Luke should have killed Vader too.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

It is also important not to be blinded by numbers like "trillion". In a galactic scale civil war such deaths are to be expected. The Rebel Alliance undoubtedly killed millions of Imperials, not all of them guilty of war crimes, many innocent people as the Death Star novel shows. That doesn't suddenly mean we should be demanding Luke's execution.

And, as the "Darth Hitler" Godwin has already been cast, I'll add to it by pointing out that calling for all Yuuzhan Vong to be killed is rather like the people who think all Germans should be shot. As has been pointed out, most of the warrior caste were already dead. Killing the ordinary workers and the Shamed Ones and the rest of the bulk of the Yuuzhan Vong race would have been as bad as suggesting killing ordinary Germans for what the Nazis did. Being German does not make you a Nazi the same way being Yuuzhan Vong does not make you a savage. Don't forget that by the end of the war a lot of Yuuzhan Vong were already turning on their own leaders as the Jeedai heresy showed. They weren't all savages.