PT Yoda was wrong, size DOES matter.

In The Phantom Menace, we learn that midi-chlorians are what allow people to communicate with and use the Force.

We also know that midi-chlorian counts also correlate with force potential.

In the Empire of Dreams documentary, George Lucas himself states:

From this, we can conclude that when Anakin lost part of his body on Mustafar, his TOTAL midi-chlorian count decreases which, in turn, diminished his Force potential. If it were the midi-chlorians per cell that mattered, Anakin's Force potential wouldn't have diminished after losing part of his body. Therefore, according to George Lucas, it is the TOTAL midi-chlorians in one's body that determines his Force potential, not the midi-chlorians per cell.

Now, let's compare the TOTAL midi-chlorian count of two Force-users that have a similar number of midi-chlorians per cell:

Yoda's midi-chlorian count per cell: 19,000
Darth Sidious' midi-chlorian count per cell : 20,000

Now for some rough math:

Yoda:

Wieght: 13 kg
Weight of an average cell: 27 picograms
Midi-chlorians per cell: 19,000
13 kg = 13,000,000,000,000,000 pg
13,000,000,000,000,000 pg / 27 pg = 480,000,000,000,000 total cells
480,000,000,000,000 total cells * 19,000 midi-chlorians per cell = 9,100,000,000,000,000,000 total midi-chlorians in Yoda's body

Darth Sidious:

Weight: 75 kg
Weight of an average cell: 27 picograms
Midi-chlorians per cell: 20,000
75 kg = 75,000,000,000,000,000 pg
75,000,000,000,000,000 pg / 27 pg = 2,800,000,000,000,000 total cells
2,800,000,000,000,000 total cells * 20,000 midi-chlorians per cell = 56,000,000,000,000,000,000 total midi-chlorians in Sidious' body

Darth Sidious' 56,000,000,000,000,000,000 total midi-chlorians >> Yoda's 9,100,000,000,000,000,000 total midi-chlorians

Therefore, according to Star Wars canon and George Lucas himself, because Yoda is smaller in size, thus reducing his total midi-chlorian count, he is significantly weaker that Darth Sidious in the Force.

 

Wrong. Yoda's just repeating what his father told him when he was younger.

 

Pretty sure that has less to do with size and more being physically whole. Anakin lost his ability because as you become more mechanical you have less ability to tap into a natural force. It explains why droids for example cannot feel or contact the force. Anakin lost his ability because he became 80% mechanical therefore he was less human and more of a machine and therefore could tap into the force less.

 

Just curious, where did you get the midichlorian count number for Yoda and Sidious? I've heard they had a high count, but never heard of the exact number

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

 

Auggie

That's the spirit, I just love these kinds of pseudoscientific speculations.

But Yoda's cells (and weight) could be much denser than we usually assume, after all he is an alien. If his weight were only 13 kg he probably wouldn't even require a walking cane.

However, I can't shake the feeling that Lucas talked himself into a corner in the Empire of Dreams documentary.

If I were to assume that Vader had only 80% of Palpatine's potential after Mustafar, Luke's potential must have been less, considering how he got his butt kicked by Vader in Cloud City (and I don't believe Luke's potential dramatically increased between ESB and ROJ).

Now, I'm certain that Yoda and Ben had planned for Luke to confront Palpatine together with Leia (after her training), but they seemed rather confident Luke could defeat Vader, who nevertheless appeared to have a higher midichlorian count and the dark side as his ally..

 

Supershadow - a massively unreliable source - first provided those figures:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/SuperShadow

Unfortunately - even reputable sources have fallen for these made-up figures. The new book Star Wars Graphics (released under the Disney label)- which was based on a French magazine about Star Wars - used them.

For more detail - see here:

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/star-wars-graphics-book-came-out-in-the-uk-today.50040360/

 

Whether the midi-chlorian counts are accurate or not does not matter. What matters is that if two organisms have a similar midi-chlorian count per cell, the larger organism will have a significantly higher TOTAL midi-chlorian count, thus making him more Force sensitive.

He lost Force potential because his total midi-chlorian count decreased. When he lost alot of his body mass, he lost alot of midi-chlorians in the process.

And because Yoda is small, he has less cells, meaning the total midi-chlorians in his body is lower than someone with a similar count PER cell.

Droids can not use the Force because they have 0 midi-chlorians in their whole body.

 

Theoretically, because Yoda is smaller than Sidious, and Sidious has 6.2 times more midi-chlorians in his body than Yoda, he has 6.2 times more Force potential.

 

Yoda is a different species than Darth Sidious, this is like comparing Apples to Oranges. You cannot assume that Yoda has the same number of cells as a human of the same size.

 

The newcanon seems to be favouring a "Vader's power did not decrease thanks to his injuries" approach. If anything, the Lords of the Sith novel has shown Vader as having a stronger connection to the Force.

 

You're making some assumptions on how communicating with midichlorians works. I would posit that it's probably tied in some way to the pathways of the nervous system. I believe this because for one thing it explains how one is able to "feel" the force - it's the nervous system that allows you to feel. Secondly, the real world analogue to the force, chi or life force, is in fact closely tied to the nervous system, so it would make sense that the force would be as well.

A smaller being like Yoda doesn't necessarily have a less developed or less sensitive nervous system. Meaning that his nervous system is "in contact" with as many midichlorians as Sidious, even though he presumably has a fewer total number of cells because of his smaller size. And this still explains why Anakin would lose potential upon losing his limbs, as that wipes out those nervous system pathways.

 

Size is not the issue. What Yoda told Luke was that anyone who can use the Force, can do so. As Lucas said, Yoda and Palpatine are equal to each other in terms of power and experience. It isn't because of size, but because of their knowledge and their connection to the Force is great. Yoda was telling Luke that for a Jedi, something as big as an X-Wing isn't a problem when it comes to the Force. What is holding Luke back is his inability to believe that he can do it. Luke believes that he can lift a rock, or Artoo because he can do it with his own hands. But he cannot lift an X-Wing because people cannot do that. So he thinks in human terms, not as a Jedi. When Luke does so, then he will be as strong as Yoda.

 

Geez, that's some crazy math you just did. But I don't think size matters in that regard, Yoda was just inspiring Luke, he is one of the most powerful force users in history, and a shrimp. It shows that it doesn't matter how big or small something is, but how well you understand, and comprehend the force.

Midichlorians help determine potential, but they don't determine strength. Someone with a weak midichlorian count might defeat someone with a strong one if they practice and hone their skills better, its not about size, but determination and skill.

Now if you'll excuse me I have a headache after all of that.

 

Nope. Lucas stated that someone like Obi-wan cannot beat someone like Palpatine, no matter how hard he tries.

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204.

This is why Palpatine took out three Jedi Masters like he did. His Midichlorian count is high like Yoda's, which is why his connection to the Force is stronger than Obi-wan's.

 

Palpatine cannot possibly have 20k per cell

According to GL, Anakin was about 150% of Palpatine's power. But after his injuries, 80%

That doesn't lower the amount of Midis per cell - just the amount of Midis he has

My calculations estimated that Palpatine has 13,500 per cell (too lazy to redo the math. I suck at math) but never calculated Yoda's. Hm

 

Everytime I see the thread title, my mind goes to a dirty place..............


*buries head in shame*

 

That's why Midichlorians show potential. Obiwan might not be able to beat Palpatine as his midichlorian count is lower, and Palpy is very well practiced, but if someone with a high midichlorian count doesn't practice as much as someone with a lower one it is not inconceivable that they could be evenly matched.
I'm looking at two things here'

1 Obi's Quote in II "If you would spend as much time practicing your saber techniques as your wit you would rival master Yoda as a swordsmen."
2 And Obi beating Anakin in III. Obi-Wan works hard to improve his skill, while Anakin seemingly appeared content with his natural ability. That and the fact that Obi trained Ani allows him to be evenly matched, and eventually beat Vader.

So while Midichlorians represent potential, they do not represent skill, or power alone. I understand how my previous post might have been confusing, but in the end neither of these things has to do with size, so yes size is irrelevant as Yoda said.

 

First Anakin had a count much higher than Yoda's, so even after losing limbs, Vader still may have had a count that was higher than Yoda or Palp's, just not as high as it used to be.

Luke didn't have less potential than Vader, he was simply less well trained and experienced. Look how in AOTC, Anakin had more potential than Dooku, yet because Dooku had more training and experience he soundly defeated Anakin. Anakin only defeated Dooku in ROTS because he was more fully trained and had more experience. In ROTJ, it is suggested Luke studied and self taught himself to be better at using the force than he was in TESB. Lucas once stated Luke has the same count as his father, Anakin. Lucas also made a big point about how being a cyborg in Star Wars is a major downgrade, such as Grievous suffering poor heath with his constant coughing and weezing. Under all that fearsome armor, Vader was a sick and broken old man who had lost much of his potential along with his humanity and dignity, while Luke was a healthy strong young man who still had most of his potential intact, clearly Palps wanted a upgrade. I really dislike this newcannon BS that points to Vader's cybernetics making him stronger when the films still clearly point to the opposite and why Palps wanted a healthy man to replace that old broken cyborg.

 

Slicer87 wrote

The films still clearly point to the opposite and why Palps wanted a healthy man to replace that old broken cyborg.

Interesting choice of words hard to argue with.

 

Anakin did improve his skills between films which is why he boasts that he is stronger than before, when fighting Dooku. Obi-wan beat Anakin because the latter made a mistake by letting his anger control him and he made a foolish mistake. But Anakin had yet to reach Palpatine's level. That's why Yoda told Obi-wan that he is no match for Palpatine. That is why Anakin doesn't tear through Obi-wan like Palpatine did with the Jedi Posse.

 

Thanks, that is is a unique characteristic of Vader, on one hand he is a fearsome warrior "badass" while at the same time being a sickly and pathetic in many different ways. Not only is Vader broken physically which is why he needed cyborg parts, but also broken emotionally, mentally, spirituality, etc. It seems people focus too much on Vader's badass side and ignore his pathetic side, probably because badass behavior is often used by people to mask their inner problems. The Road Warrior explores this concept too as Max, despite being one of the best warriors is also the most broken person in the film as he is unable to let go of his loss, despite that both the other heros and villains have also lost people and were able to move on and that Max's loss didn't make him a special sad case, as tragic as it was.

 

I think it's clear that they can make one physically stronger, faster (not in terms of agility but arm movement, knee movement etc) and have a higher pain tolerance, but also weigh you down making you slower in other ways, and lower your force ability/potential. They come with strengths and weaknesses.

 

That seems true, looking at GG in ROTS, he was immune to pain in some ways as Obi cut two of his hands off without feeling anything. Later Obi tries to punch GG only to just hurt his own hand, while GG was able to punch a dent into a fighter. However GG clearly suffered downsides, he seemed to be bulkier and less coordinated and slower than Obi. Also GG's coughing suggests he was probably in constant pain or discomfort, along with probably needing medical care. GG doesn't really suffer from the loss of force ability that Vader does. If you look at Vader, yeah he is strong and can lift and strangle a grown man singled handed with his cyborg arms, yet he was trapped in a iron lung suit he could only take off in those special pressure chambers, likely suffered phantom pains and required medical upkeep. With burn victims, the pain doesn't go away because their nerves are damaged, and Vader probably needed some painkillers to just function. Being a cyborg has some advantages, but it isn't an ideal state.

 

Losing limbs doesn't change your midichlorian count.