Your Overconfidence is your weakness...Your faith in your friends is yours!

In general, It appears at the surface that the weakness of the Sith is their overconfidence. I think this is generally true in the death of Darth Maul and the butchering of Anakin Skywalker. They thought that they had/could beat the Jedi that they were up against (Namely one Obi-Wan Kenobi.) However, we see the defeat of two other Sith Lords, Tyrannus and Sidious. It seems to me that their respective weaknesses were their faith in their friends.

"This isn't a real fight Lord Tyrannus. Just get Anakin all flustered and I will handle the rest."

Dooku does as he says and gets Anakin into a dark side fury, where he is subsequently betrayed by his Master (And presumably his friend.)

Sidious tells his apprentice to again get a promising young Jedi whipped into a dark side fury, but this time Luke chooses NOT to kill the apprentice. Said apprentice goes and stands a foot away from his Master. His Master has total faith that his apprentice is loyal to him and suddenly he's dropped down a reactor shaft.

I think it's pretty ironic with the rule of two and all how much faith some of the Sith Lord placed in each other. It seems that "Faith in their friends" was their downfall.

Carnage

 

Good post Carnage. That's absolutely true from a certain point of view.

They obviously trusted Palpatine too much and Dooku had faith in him that he knew what he was doing. It would of been interesting to know what he told Dooku before the rescue? And obviously to counter that idea you get some Anakin fans who refuse to believe it was a set up.

Come ROTJ Palps is up to his tricks again by winding the situation up. The duel is almost for his amusement. He placed too much faith in his abilities as a Master and was arrogant and overconfident. He didn't trust Vader but I also think he didn't think for a moment that Vader would turn on him. The sith apprentice's do seem to put too much faith in Palpatine even though at some point they think of betraying him.

 

So it was still their overconfidence that was their downfall.

If they hadnt of been so confident of what their master/apprentice would do, then their fates may have been different.

 

Which brings me to a point. Why does over-confidence seem to be the theme of Star Wars? Does The Force actually hurt our characters? Does The Force give everyone a sense of invulnerability which translates into over-confidence?

 

I think it's because human's are flawed in general. The theme is overconfidence amongst other things but I think Lucas pays special attention to show viewers that anyone's downfall can come from simple things. The darkside trait is overconfidence in their abilities and arrogance. Lucas let this be displayed via Luke in ESB to show the path he could possibly go down with being overconfident, inpatient and arrogant which ultimately leads to the darkside. I think he also demonstrates that with that power of having the force you need that control and wisdom to show your a jedi, so to sum it up I think Lucas keeps it simple.

Jedi

Wise
Patient
Control
Disapline

Sith

Overconfident
Arrogant
Inpatient

That kind of theme, good values and bad values. Just my 2 cents

 

Is Sidious not wise? Is he not patient/ disciplined? (Look at how long he was biding his time before ROTS).
I agree that the Siths' downfalls usually come about through overconfidence/arrogance, and impatience is a problem both Luke and Anakin must overcome before they are accepted as Jedi. It's more about impatience leading Anakin to Sith order. Impatience isn't a required Sith characteristic itself.
Vader is pretty disciplined in the OT, really.

 

Thats a summary of an idea youv'e taken as literal. There can be many points that go hand in hand with either side. Palpatine said to Yoda "Your arrogance blinds you master Yoda". Is Yoda considered arrogant as a summerization?

And to answer your question Sidious is obviously wise, patient and disciplined otherwise he wouldn't be able to take over as ruler. Come ROTJ do you still think he was wise in the way he tried to turn Luke? Do you not rationalise with the way Lucas demonstrated simple, good and bad points and in turn my point was just an obvious example.

 

Sorry then.
I was responding to your statement "Lucas likes to keep things simple". It made it sound like you were categorising the Jedi and Sith. My bad.

 

Back to The Force point for a second. To re-phrase, does The Force give it's Users a sense of grandeur? Are only the ones that are strong enough to overcome their arrogant selves, the ones to survive to overconfidence trend?

 

Its cool. I'll make my points a little clearer in future.

 

Well with great power comes great responsibility as Ben Parker would say, and the Jedi have this special ability that seperates them as individual's. It's a human flaw to let things go to your head when you are great at something. You need people around you to keep you grounded, down to earth and not let the reality escape you. That's why Obi said to Anakin that he had failed him, I think.

I think the force users, especially the powerful ones need to have the wisdom to be in control of their feelings and be selfless. I think it does give them a sense of grandeur. As for the overconfidence. Luke had acheived a certain power at the end of ROTJ, then he could be viewed as getting slightly ahead of himself with throwing his weapon away. Now I know that was not what was meant to transpire to the audience but it could be misinterpreted and as I mentioned Palpatine thought Yoda was arrogant/overconfident.

 

Read the ROTS novel.

 

Which is probably why Yoda is concerned that more and more Jedi are become arrogant. They are becoming detached from their original roots and are becoming more focused on their self-worth.

 

Thanks I have. You can't take that as gospal. Good thought though. Great book. And before you say I know MS had Lucas's permission and was entitled to see the script.

 

The RoTS novel further pushes the point that Dooku's faith in his Master was his downfall. He thought he Master would not let him get butchered if things went amiss. He was wrong.

Carnage

 

[/quote] Come ROTJ do you still think he was wise in the way he tried to turn Luke? [/quote]
Sidious was using what worked the 1st time around with a Skywalker and assumed(wrongly) that Luke would emulate his fathers' choice when given the same situation.

Sidious was patient and was no fool,more like he played everyone else for a fool albeit for a time.

What the various rise and fall of characters in the Saga show me is that Lucas is saying no matter how "powerful" or "wise" (the Plagueis story as an example) no one is infallible.

(edit - typos)

 

Actutally, I think Sidious failed at turning Luke because he didnt have anything to offer him (other than power) like he did with Anakin. With Anakin he had the offer of the knowledge to keep Padme alive, but with Luke it was just more power. Maybe if Sidious had tried offering the safe passage of Luke's friends from Endor then the outcome might have been differnt.

 

I think Sidious tried to duplicate the circumstances with Luke. He put his friends in danger, hoping that would equal the same amount of leverage that Anakin had with Padme.

I think the main difference is that Luke has a chance to see what he would become by looking at his Father. If Anakin had that, he might not have turned either.

 

It kinda reminds me of The Matrix analogy. The architect gives Neo two doors, but tells him no matter what, Trinity it already dead. So, might as well choose Door #2.

You're right. The problem with telling someone that their friends and loved ones are already dead os that it just motivates them more. The Emperor handled in entirely wrong.

 

I see the Emperor's problem in ROTJ as one of complacency. He had had 20 odd years to sit around and rejoice in his victory. After twenty years of absolute power, no matter how long you plotted and how hard you struggled, the memory of his takeover had began to take on an aura of inevitablity, I am sure.

He had forgotten how close he had come to dying against Windu, and how he barely triumphed over Yoda. His belief that he could see the future completed his self-assurant worldview.

He lost the "hunger", the eye of the tiger if you will. Thats been my interpretation of it.

 

Your reasonings of Dooku's downfall are interesting, and quite plausible. It makes me wonder, though, if Dooku never questioned him: HOW? How would Palpatine save him. He couldn't give his identity away. The best Dooku could hope for was being captured... Not very wise from a man who seemed wise.

As to OBW506's question: Yes, I think the force makes many force users think themselves superior to others. Initially I tink it was a sith things, but more and more Jedi were showing the same signs. So, perhaps the Jedi order needed to be eradicated. The Jedi were becoming too similar to the Sith!? Not Yoda, OBW, Mace or many of the top-Jedi perhaps, but what about the others?

 

Well isn't that the basis to Yoda's quote in AotC? "Too sure of themselves."

 

I think it is. But would you agree that the Jedi perhaps were becoming more similar to the Sith? Their arrogance for one...

 

FWIW, I never understood in ROTJ why Sidious, after more or less offering Vader to Luke on a plate for the kill, was confident that Vader was not going to turn on him. My guess is he was so engrossed with toasting Luke that he didn't notice Vader slowly approaching him.