Do we overestate Anakin/Vader's power in fan fic?

OK, I've got my flame retardant gear ready just in case, but I had to pose the question. First off let me say that Anakin Skywalker is one of, it not, my favorite SW character. That being said do fan fiction writers and the SW fans in general make more of his power than is realistic?

First off, as of the ANH he is one of the last Jedi alive, we all know this to be so. Now in most instances being the most powerful of any group that gets exterminated is somewhat of a knock on your power as well. I mean I seriously doubt that Anakin/Vader is responsible for every Jedi death we will see in EP3. Yes, he was a major hunter/killer of Jedi between the latter stages of EP3 and ANH, but not the sole cause of their demise IMO. Many Jedi die during the clone wars, and according to the EU, Anakin has some fairly close calls himself. Granted he's still young and his powers are growing, but he's not a superhero. The Jedi fall do to, for lack of a better expression, their lack of vision. And major human/alien weakness that anyone can suffer from...including Anakin.

My point being that I've read a number of stories, not just on these boards, that seem to point to Anakin being nearly all powerful. Personally I don't see it that way at all. While he is certainly head and shoulders above most hand to hand [or lightsaber as the case may be] fighters, he's NOT a one man army. Further more it is my humble opinion that if the old Republic's strongest Jedi were to attack him in mass he would be defeated. I'm not saying that many, maybe most, wouldn't die in the process, but I do think it's likely he would fall.

I understand the mythological aspects of star wars, but I'm also a big believer in taking a somewhat realistic approach to storytelling. I personally attempt to tell my stories as though our galaxy and the SW's galaxy both exist. By this I mean that any tale we would hear of alien species, lightsaber duels, Sith and Jedi would seem mythic, but the reality from their POV would be more mundane as it were. I don't claim to be the only person to write in this way, but I figured it would give perspective to my question. I try and keep my stories in an in universe context were even the most amazing feats are not considered totally outside the realm of possibility by the other characters.

It's just that some stories I've seen, a lot actually, portray Anakin/Vader's in universe powers/battle prowess as Godlike, and I just don't by it. I don't mean that to be as harsh as it sounds- apologies. I'm truly not trying to diminish his character or it's impact on the SW universe, just get some perspective. I guess I would like to see the descriptions of his power be more ambiguous, since none of us truly can know how powerful any Jedi, including Anakin, is or can become. I guess what started this train of thought was G.L's description of Anakin in, I believe, TPM DVD. In laying out the story he describes Anakin as a boy destined to be a major player in the Jedi and bringing balance back to the Force- something along those lines. I've never heard it stated that Anakin's 'power' AKA battle prowess is the key ingredient to his role in the saga.

Anyway, I'm sure that little rant is riddled with things ripe to be pulled apart, but I had to spit it out. Hopefully it made some semblance of sense, and I would appreciate any opinions offered in response. Just don't beat me up too badly, as I don't have any shiny black armor to fall back on lol!


JD.

 

Hey JDH3.

First of all, you seem very scared, and you shouldn't be people love it when topics like this get started, and opinions are respected.

And now, for my rant

I agree with you completely. In fact, I agree with you even more than that. I think that Jedi Knights/Padawans/Learners/whatever are ALL portrayed as being far too powerful.

And i blame George Lucas for this. (DISCLAIMER: I AM ETERNALLY THANKFUL TO GEORGE LUCAS FOR CREATING THE UNIVERSE I LOVE SO MUCH. And obviously I cant disagree with his vision of the prequel trillogy - but i dont have to love it, either).

The original trilogy really defined for me what a Jedi Knight could do. Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi epitomised the young Jedi Knight. Jedi were certainly capable in combat - but they were not invulnerable.

While he (anakin) is certainly head and shoulders above most hand to hand [or lightsaber as the case may be] fighters, he's NOT a one man army

And neither should the rest of the Jedi be.

And then, bring on Episode One. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn battle the trade federation, and damn near bring it down single-handedly within the first five minutes. Sure, it was cool at the time. But then it was boring. These Jedi were in no danger from anything. In fact, had the Jedi gone to battle the droid armies on the fields, and the gungans been delegated the task of beating up Darth Maul, i felt certain that they'd only need to wave their hands and swish their lightsabers, and the battle would be over.

Episode two was better in that respect, in that the battle in the geonosis arena saw a few Jedi (that no-one knows or cares about) get killed by something that wasnt another jedi. But there were still the elements of invincibility that really irk me. (How about anakin jumping out of an airspeeder thousands of feet high, and landing precisely on Zam Wessel's speeder? sorry, not convinced).

The result of all of this kind of thing is a sense that the main character (and it's usually a Jedi, but not always) has a lovely, nice shield around him which nothing can penetrate. That might be fun for some people. But for me, it's quite boring. If the main character is invincible, then whats the point of going on an adventure? I know how it turns out.

Please dont get me wrong - i really like all five movies so far. But the Jedi overload in the two prequels is not my cup of tea.

It gets very tiresome reading action scenes that play out like this:

Obi-wan activated his lightsaber with a snap hiss. The bounty hunters were all around him, weapons loaded. Without warning, they opened fire. Obi-Wan leapt into the air, deflecting blaster bolts as he went. With a wave of his left hand, he sent twenty bounty hunters hurtling to the ground.

His leap carried him behind those bounty hunters still standing. he cut them down very quickly and easily, because he is a Jedi, and the rest fled in fear because - again - he is a Jedi

"The force" can become an excuse for a lack of creativity, i think. How will I get Anakin out of this mess? Why, the force of course! It can solve everything. Only in some cases, the force is just as much a tool for lazy writers as it is for the Jedi.

So, its for reasons like this that i wont read Jedi fics anymore. I much prefer squad fics and things like that (even though they can sometimes suffer from the same problems, but it is much less common).

I understand the mythological aspects of star wars, but I'm also a big believer in taking a somewhat realistic approach to storytelling.

Yes, i completely agree with this statement. It's easy to tell what is realistic and probable in the Star Wars universe. When i read something that is very improbable or unrealistic, i tend to get skeptical and leave the story.

So, in summing up: I like the Jedi, i think they're a wonderful idea. It's just been taken too far in some cases. A Jedi should not be invincible. He should be able to die at the hands of anything

 

Mjsullivan: Not so much scared as prepared lol! In my experience discussing this particlular topic elsewhere it has proven rather...flame inducing.

Moving on, I have to admit to being guilty of writing some of those Jedi scenes from time to time. [face_shocked] However, I usually try and balance those moments with moments of equal or greater weakness as a result of their amazing feat.

I mean if Anakin/Vader were actually as powerful as some write him the OT would have been very short. With the exception of Luke and possibly Leia, because of Luke protecting her, Vader would have wiped out the Alliance quite quickly.

It's been said that the prequel era is the golden age of the Jedi, fine I'll except that. Still, a massive number of Jedi are wiped out through duplicity and sheer numbers of enemies during the clone wars, EP3 and the nearly two decades between EP3 and ANH. If not for his siding with Sidious, Anakin, could have well been one of those dearly departed IMO. True it might have taken more work, maybe he would have even escaped. But would he have been able to topple the Empire virtually alone?

I'd say no since Yoda and Obi-Wan couldn't do it without help. Help that took the better part of two decades to really get rolling, and I'm talking about more than Luke and Leia. After all if all it would take to topple the Empire was one strong Jedi [Luke], why wait till he was eighteen? He could just have easily begun his Jedi training like most PT era Jedi. A fact which would have calmed many of Yoda's fears about him being too old, and too much like his father.

My ultimate point being that while Anakin's prowess as a warrior are key to many things, he is but one part of a much larger design. There were many things that had to transpire in order for his warrior abilities to make any impact whatsoever. Not to mention that it was his love for Luke, and his father's heart that were the ultimate diference not his Jedi skills- lest we forget that he lost to Luke.

I'll end my second rant with the following. I don't mind the idea of Anakin being "the most powerful Jedi ever." I just think that title needs to be put in context of what any and all Jedi accomplish throughout the course of the saga. They do great things and win many battles, but they are not THE factor in all that transpires. They were a small yet powerful segment of a population that was caught in a swelling sea of darkness<--pardon the poetry lol! Anakin's turn to the darkside did as much to save his life as it did to power the OT and the Jedi purge IMO. Without turning he would have been one VERY powerful individual against an Empire, and I personally wouldn't like his odds '...most powerful...' or not.


JD.

 

I try to vision Anakin as a very powerful Jedi indeed in my fan fiction. But the reason behind this is that he is pulling his power from both sides of the force. The light and the dark (even though he might not realize it all the time.) I believe he is very powerful but very reckless. I like the way Lucas makes him at odds with himself all the time. I try to convey that into my fan fic. The feeling that Anakin is at that breaking point all the time. Fighting the conflicts that lie deep within. This to me makes him a force to be reckoned with. But not all powerfull. To me Lucas vision of Anakin is right on!! Myself I grew up with the original triology and I love the prequels just as much. In the end it's all a saga from a long time ago...

 

STARDOG-D-JEDI: I don't disagree with G.L's depiction of Anakin- who could? After all he created the character. As for Anakin being very powerful- here again we agree. My only issue is that some author's portray Anakin as a man who can't be beaten. I have issues with those who see him as the ultimate difference maker in any conflict. He is very powerful, but not the deciding factor in every battle he's involved in- just MO.


JD.

 

I don't portray as all-powerful. I portray him as a gifted Force user, who is a bit too sure of himself.

 

In one of my fics, Obi-Wan thinks of how the Jedi would NOT be very good soldiers in the conventional sense. They don't even wear protective armor! No long-range firepower. Trained to operate alone or in small teams, but not in squads, platoons, etc.

I've always thought Anakin was a great pilot not only because he was a powerful Jedi, but because he was a great pilot, force or no, a la Han or Wedge.

Anakin may have more "raw power" in the Force but raw power is not the only kind. He does not have the wisdom or experience of Yoda or the focus and discipline of Obi-Wan.

-Tim

 

Can but agree with you. And simple proof of that is the way Anakin is ridiculed by Count Dooku - not once, but twice.

Anyways, I'd take into account the fact that since Ep.I and Ep.II, the vision of the Jedi people have is a vision of people who are armies unto themselves, and even the deaths of a score of them at Geonosis doesn't change that view : it takes tens of thousands of droids to take some Jedi down, and even that way they take some more thousands of droids with them. Even Jango Fett, a legend himself, lasts less than fifteen seconds against Mace Windu... With imagery like that, no wonder the Jedi look all powerful in fics !

Anyways, I'd still agree with one point that what dissed above : it is conceivable that Anakin could leap a couple hundred of feet and land into the speeder.
Yes.
I'm not joking

Quite simply, we've seen since ANH than through the use of the Force, even an untrained Jedi can achieve unnatural accuracy, and even impossible accuracy. The speeder, from the POV of a trained Force-user, is an easy mark.
Then how could Anakin land without damage ? The Force again, and this time a focused application of telekenisis to slow one's fall and absorb most of the shock from the contact.

Why am I demonstrating that this jump is possible ? Precisely, to focus your attention one thing : the way Anakin uses the Force when he performs this feat is essentially subtle, and he isn't trying to do too many things at a time either : he's focused on landing on that speeder. If, for some reason, someone had been shooting him when he jumped, he'd be dead, either because dodging the blow means changing course somehow (he has no ground under his feet to stop him from being moved when deflecting the shot), and he falls, and dies. Or, he doesn't change course, and he suffers from the shot, can't control his fall, misses or doesn't miss the speeder but certainly dies too.

So my two cents : those who portray Jedi characters, no matter what their power level, should keep in mind two things :

1) The best uses of the Force are subtle and/or unexpected ones, and they're the ones who'll be most liked by readers.
2) Always keep track of what your Force-user does, and when. Jedi do amazing things, but time is still time, and even Jedi can only do a limited number of things in a given amount of time. And yes, their lightsabers can't block three simultaneous shots that aren't aligned

 

It's interesting to observe how Palpatine is successful.

Maul was a great fighter, a badass with a lightsaber. Instead of destroying the Jedi, he managed to break even - kill one Jedi, and then be killed himself. It may SEEM like the Jedi almost won the Battle of Naboo, but in reality all they did keep Maul busy long enough for Queen Amidala's force to get to the Viceroy - and Anakin's destruction of the droid control ship saved many Gungans, but remember what Amidala said - and that she was proved right: if she could capture the Viceroy as a hostage the situation could have been resolved. The other actions by the pilots, the Gungan army, and the Jedi were secondary, intended to draw off the enemy forces so Padme's group could do their job.

Yet Palpatine does not once use the Force overtly onscreen in the first two episodes of the PT. Which is probably precisely one of the reasons why he is successful. Power as sheer strength (whether Force or physical) is only one type of power, and is only as effective as the mind and will directing it. And in warfare as other things, outmaneuvering the enemy is often more effective than a frontal assault.

As for Jango - he puts up a very good fight against Obi-Wan - managing to escape, and more than hold his own as a pilot - and kills a Jedi in the Arena before meeting his fate.

-Tim

 

Obi-wan activated his lightsaber with a snap hiss. The bounty hunters were all around him, weapons loaded. Without warning, they opened fire. Obi-Wan leapt into the air, deflecting blaster bolts as he went. With a wave of his left hand, he sent twenty bounty hunters hurtling to the ground.

His leap carried him behind those bounty hunters still standing. he cut them down very quickly and easily, because he is a Jedi, and the rest fled in fear because - again - he is a Jedi

LMAO MJ....Thanks, I needed that.

I see Anakin portrayed as an overall more emotional character more often than not in fan fics. Granted, that they are mostly AU, but to me this misses the mark. Anakin is quick to use anger. He is moody, not emotional. He is constantly conflicted. GL has said that Anakin was essentially a good person that made bad choices vs. Luke who chose wisely.

As far as the Jedi being super heroes...if the SW universe were real then yes they would be. And in that order, some would be better than others. Mace and Yoda should be stronger through age/experience/knowledge. A master should be more skilled than a padawan (Something Anakin did not agree with in EPII) and with Vader being the last of the Jedi in EPIV, his power is more myth and legend thanks mostly to his outfit. I mean c'mon, if he were real...I would cross three counties over to make sure I was not on the same side of the street as him. His outfit scares people alone. Anyone witnessing him using the dark side would be freaked out even more...

 

I haven't had a chance to read all of this thread yet. I'm interested though because I had brought up basically the same question last month. It's nice to see someone else having that same feeling of "Wait a minute - if Anakin really is that powerful how come the story ain't a whole lot shorter?" or something like that anyway.

I agree wholeheartedly about the overuse of the Force as a "get out of jail free" card. There is a lot of discontinuity in what we have in the films even that adds to the confusion if you ask me. When I get a chance I am going to watch all the existing films and try and make some logical notes about what Jedi do and do not seem to be able to do.

'Course I missed the Clone Wars cartoons (I'm still irritated about that - wish I had had tivo then - wish I had it now for that matter) so I have no idea what might be in there that might apply.

KD

 

I think that Jedi Knights/Padawans/Learners/whatever are ALL portrayed as being far too powerful.


IMO this is one of the biggest dangers of writing fanfic with "supernatural" characters.

Certainly the Jedi possess extraordinary powers, but they are far from invincible. Let's not forget that when young Anakin said that no one can kill a Jedi, Qui-Gon points out that he is wrong. And I know I saw Jango Fett give Obi-Wan a good butt-whoopin and kill one of the Council members during the Battle of Geonosis.


Something for fanficcers to keep in mind is to have their Jedi characters attempt to first think their way through a situation rather than use the Force to get them through. Just because they have powers doesn't mean they shouldn't rely on their smarts.

 

Interesting thoughts put forth while I was away- yippie!

Moving on, I really don't see Jedi as superheroes in their universe. I look at them more like masters of martial arts here. They can do incredible things, amazing things that we can hardly conceive of, but still not superman'esque. I've studied martial arts for a long time, and seen plenty of things that just blew me away, but still within the realm of reason.

I agree with those who say that Anakin's raw power doesn't really tell the whole story- so true. As Barris Offee said in "The Approaching Storm." "Potential that goes unrealized is potential that might as well not exist in the first place." <--TAS page 111, in case anyone is curious.

As for Anakin the pilot, I agree that is a separate skill from his Force talents. He would have been a gifted pilot wether or not he became a Jedi IMO.

Emotional or moody? I'm not sure I can clearly define the difference at the moment, but I'll have to think it over. Yes, he's a good man who makes some awful choices, no doubt about that.

Perhaps my original idea of fan fic writers making him all powerful was incorrect to a degree- based on responses. Still, I've seen plenty of instances in fan fic where I thought his powers were blown out of proportion. And beyond that, it seems to be a general feeling running through the SW fans in general that disturbs me.

I also have to agree with what was said about the context of Vader in the OT. Between the armor and the utter lack of other openly active Force users in the galaxy, Vader would seem mythic. I mentioned much the same thing in my opening remarks on this subject.

Again I would have to agree that a Jedi can do one remarkable feat at a time, but multi-tasking and Force use don't go hand in hand. I also find the idea of a rapid succession of amazing feats just plain silly. Having Anakin fall twenty stories and land via the Force is fine, but to have him jump ten stories a moment later is just nuts, again IMO. As I said already, perhaps this does not happen as often as it seems to me in fan fic. However, more than just fan fic, the general tone of those who discuss Anakin/Vader seems to put him on a level that doesn't stand up to his canon achievements.

I sight the duel in ROTJ as a prime example of not just Vader but the overstatement of all Jedi. What exactly did Vader/Anakin's betrayal mean to the ultimate outcome of the battle? The shield would still have come down even if the Emperor had survived. Perhaps Palpatine would have escaped to fight on, but aside from saving Anakin, what did the duel do to the battle that took place around it? Again, I'm not trying to diminish Anakin's importance or the Jedi's for that matter. But there does be a tendancy to intertwine the personal aspects of SW with the larger issues. G.L says in his DVD commentary at the end of AOTC, that the SW saga is essentially two fold.<--my interpretation. That Anakin's rise and fall mirrors the Republic's struggle. The two elements certainly mix and effect one another, but there are other key factors as well that play a huge part in what happens to the galaxy. Sidious's manipulations both pre and post Anakin's arrival being chief among these things.

Alright now it's time to post and go re-read to see if I need to edit this lol!


JD.

 

In case anyone has any other thoughts to add...UP!


JD.

 

Hmmm People do tend to focus on the flash a lot when concerning the Jedi. Not really fanfic writers but just casual fans of the SW stories.

I myself have never seen the Jedi as invincible. Gifted with the Force sure but not unstoppable. The Clone Wars does a good example of showing this. Jedi can't block everything and even a small squad of men with blasters could overcome them as Jedi are not able to block every shot. It really didn't take that many Bots at the Arena to do a good number on the Jedi. It was the fact that they survived that long that makes them seem so powerful to me. ^_^

TCW grinded the Jedi up. Sure Anakin helped hunt them down but I bet he had help from soldiers and other such trackers, traps, distractions, traitors, etc etc. Lightsaber doesn't do much good when some hole blasts the transport you where hiding on.

 

The thing about the Jedi in the prequels that bugs me is that they're all pretty much the same. There are two exceptions: Yoda and Windu.

The rest all use about the same style on-screen, from that I can see. Leap, slash, duck, block, leg sweep, up, down, fast punch, fierce punch, A, B, start, select...

Whoops.

Which is why I like the lore on the movies more than I like the movies themselves. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan used Form IV (the acrobatic stuff); when Qui-Gon was killed, Obi-Wan adapted Form III (defensive). Anakin, as far as we can tell, stuck with Form V (offensive) throughout his entire career, from Padawan to Sith Lord, though we see glimmers of Form VI (two sabers--at least, I think that's Form VI) in his battle with Dooku, who by the way uses Form II (duelist). Mace Windu (Form VII) kicks ass and takes names, and that's the way it oughta me. Yoda is the epitome of Form IV, using his size as a strength, not a weakness.

Yet the way the battles were oriented on film, you don't really see that.

When you're writing Jedi, you should make them powerful, yes, but when he draws his lightsaber he should be powerful within the confines of his style. Now, in the case of Mace Windu (because a master of Form VII is virtually unbeatable) or Yoda (for his utter mastery of his style), make him able to take on all comers, fine and well and good. But while Mace Windu is reputed to have stared down a dozen elite mercenaries, hand on his lightsaber, and with a single sentence ("It's your decision") convinced them to surrender, Count Dooku would not be able to do the same. (Though Christopher Lee could certainly be just as intimidating as Sam Jackson.) The reason is because anyone who knows of Count Dooku knows that his preferred style of lightsaber combat is duelling--and that Form II, while it is remarkably advantageous against lightsaber-wielding opponents, is not nearly so good against blasters. This wouldn't stop Dooku from unleashing a dark Force storm in all directions and knocking the mercs off their feet...

In any case, the stuff I've written features Anakin, post-Vader, as being a ground-pounder, style-wise. He's hard to knock down, and he's tremendously strong, but he's not as quick or light on his feet as he used to be. And it suits his style well.

 

JDH3...Perhaps my original idea of fan fic writers making him all powerful was incorrect to a degree- based on responses. Still, I've seen plenty of instances in fan fic where I thought his powers were blown out of proportion. And beyond that, it seems to be a general feeling running through the SW fans in general that disturbs me.


Perhaps you should ask the authors of those fics...

Why somebody writes Anakin/Vader as an almighty type, i couldn't guess. But I bet the person that wrote it could.

Honestly..I haven't seen much of this, but I also haven't read a ton of stories here...yet.

 

Interesting observations made while I was away. I would agree that the styles employed by various Jedi are not highlighted as much as they are written about- most annoying.

As for asking individual authors...I suppose, but a healthy discussion is never a bad thing- even if it does prove me wrong a time or two lol!


JD.

 

After the first few posts, you couldn't dare and come defend a story or a style clearly overstating Anakin's power in this thread without looking ridiculous. You're not totally wrong, it's them who are being wisely cowardly

 

That's another thing I don't like about the EU - it's not just fanfic. With uber-Jedi you have to wonder what's the point of regular soldiers at all, and it's much more interesting IMHO to see a battle won by good strategy or just plain grit than a few people waving their hands and annihiliating the enemy.

-Tim

 

Yes, that was quite the problem with the Bantam line of books (Tim Zahn is an exception ) ; the NJO did a good job at correcting that view, though

 

My only real gripe is the tendency to put Anakin in any impossible situation and have him survive- virtually unharmed to boot. I mean let's face it this is a guy who looses so badly to his mentor that minus his armor he's a corpse. Not too mention loosing an arm to Dooku- heck even Luke manages to get past his defenses on Bespin. Granted he was only fighting to subdue him, but still I don't think getting hit was part of the program lol!


JD.

 

... and might explain the chopped hand, which gives the boy a lesson not to mess with his betters

 

Boy, and here I thought my old man knew how to lay down the law!


JD.