If Qui-Gon Jinn would have survived

If Qui-Gon Jinn would have survived the duel with Darth Maul, how would that have changed the way the council looked at Anakin?

Qui would have pressed to train him himself, and try to push Obi-Wan into Knighthood...which the council already once declined.

If the council would have allowed Anakin to be trained by somebody else, how would that have affected Qui-gon's relationship with the council?

Is it possible that he could have turned with Dooku?

 

Going to throw a bunch of ideas out here - let us see what comes out of them:

I think he would have trained him without the Council's premission, the movie leads us to believe he would do what he wants to do if he believes in it.

The Council saw danger in training the boy - so the transformation to Vader would be unavoidable. Qui-Gon training him would certainly delay the process, I feel, if for no other reason, Obi-Wan was the WRONG person to train Anakin.

The guy just finished his own training, and passed his own trials - for all I know Maul was considered a trial. He made a promise to a dying man he loved like a father - it clouded his judgment. But to save Obi-Wan from turning into Qui-Gon, the council let him do it.

I say, Yoda needed to train the boy, or actually, I say Mace should have snuck into his room and killed him. A life for the good of Millions of others, and a galaxy.

The boy's future was cloudy - and Qui-Gon living would not prevent that. But I think the Council would not have "allowed" the training. Which surely would lead Anakin to the dark side quicker.

Furthermore, Since Dooku was his former student, it may be that Qui-Gom would have joined up with Sidious and Dooku as well as Anakin.... But that is an extreme thing to say...


Madine out

 

Nice Retort, Madine.

It woudl be interesting to see hwo Anakin would have fared if he had a different teacher.

Mace woudl have probably been able to teach him more discipline, but his Vaapad may have overcome Anakin earlier in life.

Yoda has patience, but I honestly don't know if Anakin has ever truly accepted the wisdom of Yoda ever since the day Yoda said he could not be trained.

I tend to think that Ki-Adi-Mundi would have been the best master for Anakin...he's married, in only a Knight, but serves on teh council, and he is widely respected and known for his saber skills.

It seems as if Ki is more of a father figure, but also an intense figure on the council that could have helped Anakin to release his anger ridden side in a creative way, but not going outside of the council's judgements.

Maybe he just needed a council member to help him see why it is important not to kick against the pricks.

 

See, Mace would have been the IDEAL choice - Ki is too old (looks that way, anyway) and for a little boy, that may have a factor.

Mace would make him sorry for ever feeling anything.

I just see Anakin, as written in Rogue Planet, for example, just not being able to be controlled by Ki-Adi-Mundi.

I see Mace shutting that down!

And as a council member to train the boy, well the problem there is how often do they leave Coruscant?
Sure we see them do so in AOTC, but I got the impression that was a special circumstance, given that a droid factory was there, and a clone army was just found.

But I guess the Clone Wars cartoon negates that point a little - but it is still valid in this sense: That it seems Council members stick close to Coruscant - and the others train the padawans in teh field. What kind of field would there be on Coruscant as opposed to the border dispute Anakin and Obi-Wan go settle in The Approaching Storm, or this taxation of Trade Routes that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon go to hash out.

You see what I mean? I think they need field men to train padawans after the Youngling stage.

If Yoda got his hands on Anakin, the youngling stuff would have been stronger, and perhaps maybe made difference. The boy's skills were never in question - it was his mental state.

Yoda may have been able to help there a bit. Ki-Adi-Mundi, well, do not see that happening there....

Madine out

 

I concede that Mace would have been the best choice as he would rule with an iron fist.

Maybe that's what he needed? He was raised as a slave that had to learn through an iron fist, now, once he reaches a degree of freedom, he lives in an iron lung, or iron maiden of sorts.

Ironic how his freedom actually brings him back to slavery through Sidious. Maybe he wasn't ready for the freedom given him through Obi-Wan?

 

The slavery thing was no coincidence, George is not that subtle. Good of you to point that out.

Remember, also, even as a slave, Anakin was looking for ways "around the system". He built his own pod, his own droid. We was conniving behind Watto to help strangers, and he was building a device to find, and I got the impression of, to destroy the slave restraint in his body.

Which, perhaps, did not exist, which is why he could into find it. Could have been an "old wives tale", if you get my meaning.

Madine out

 

Never thought about that whole non existant explosive thing like that.

I always wondered what kept WAtto from turning it back on again. your'e probably right.

 

Yes, but a big plot point is that Anakin could take these experiences, learn from them, and find his own way to freedom, but he would rather create imagined prisons where there are none and follow the wrong path to wind up right back where he started.

It's really a toss up as to how Anakin would have fared under Qui Gon Jinn. I feel the Council would have taken Anakin in due to the presence of the Sith. Not only because they feared the uprising, but also because now that Anakin had been revealed, it would be too dangerous to release him out into the galaxy by himself where the Sith could grab him.

As for who would train Anakin...well, it certainly would not have been Obi Wan. I do think that Obi Wan and Anakin share alot of internal characteristics, but they ultimately fail to connect because they present two very different faces to the external world. And Obi Wan, while a very patient and competent teacher, is still fairly inexperienced. Qui Gon Jinn might work because there is an obvious attachment that Anakin has to him from the start, but the Council seemed hesitant to allow him to go ahead and train Anakin, and there was still Obi Wan to take care of.

And then there's Anakin himself. Most of AOTC's instabilities and issues stem from Anakin's own persona, IMO. Sure, alot of it it can be seen as something of a byproduct of the environment he's grown up in, but that doesn't erase the fact that it's his personal psychological reaction to it. No matter who the teacher is, Anakin's personality isn't going to be any different without drastic environmental and social changes. Really, the best bet would be to deal one on one with some of the more serious internal issues Anakin has, and more importantly, getting him the heck away from Palpatine's sphere of influence. Anakin's biggest problem is discipline - he needs somebody to pound that control into him, but also someone who is willing to recognize the problems of Anakin's past. He needs someone who is willing to realize that a slave boy from Tatooine is going to have a disturbingly casual approach toward murder and suffering and then force him to think otherwise, as well as deal with the repercussions of growing up with an emotional attachment to a parental figure.

This is where I think Mace Windu might have failed. I think his "iron fist" approach would have impacted Anakin well enough. He certainly could have controlled him a bit better. But, inevitably, I think he would have been *too* stern. Anakin requires a teacher to strike a precarious balance between strict but emotionally open, someone who can connect with him emotionally without fostering psychological dependence. I think what Anakin needed was a mixture of Qui Gon, Obi Wan, Mace Windu, and Yoda, and sadly, I don't think there was one Jedi master available with all of those traits.

In other words, I'm not sure what would have happened if Qui Gon had survived. I do think that Anakin would have been taken into the Jedi fold. But if most of what did happen remained the same - the Clone Wars, Padme, Shmi's absence and death, Palpatine - I think there still would have been a likely chance that Anakin would have wound up on the dark side, anyway.

 

whoa whoa whoa! let's not get ahead of ourselves. qui-gon would do something as drastic as training him without permission. i say anakin wouldn't have gotten trained, he would probably return to tantooine to pod race and free the slaves. he would probably still end up with padme

 

Nothing would be different. Anakin had a destined to full-fill and whether or not Qui-Gon was alive he still would have turned.

~ Crystal ~

 

whoa whoa whoa! let's not get ahead of ourselves. qui-gon would do something as drastic as training him without permission. i say anakin wouldn't have gotten trained, he would probably return to tantooine to pod race and free the slaves. he would probably still end up with padme

Do you honestly think the Jedi would pass up the chance of training the Chosen One? Anakin is revealed the same time the Sith make themselves known. It's too much of a gamble to let a child with that much power without guidance in the galaxy - especially if you're going to send him right back to his life on Tatooine, where he can foster more anger and resentment. Part of what drove the Jedi Council to take Anakin on was fear. Fear that the Sith were gaining power and they couldn't fight back. Fear of the possibility that the Sith already knew of Anakin's existence and were lurking nearby, ready to pounce and grab him up for their own uses. Fear of what would happen if Anakin was truly the Chosen One. Part of the reason why Anakin's training was flawed from the start is that it was motivated by the very emotions the Council warned *him* about.

Whether Qui Gon Jinn would train Anakin Skywalker is up for grabs, but I have no doubt in my mind that Anakin would have been taken on by the Council once the Sith had revealed themselves.

 

I think, had Jinn survived (and Kenobi as well), he would've been granted permission to train Anakin. They granted Obi-Wan Knighthood for defeating Maul, and would likely do so in that case as well. I think Jinn might have been able to curb some Anakin's excesses, be more of a moderating influence on him. I also wonder, given Qui-Gon's focus on the Living Force, that he might have taken Anakin's dreams about his mother as more thna just dreams and allowed him to go and find Shmi. Things may have been very different, IMHO>

 

ok ok, maybe with some persistance, the council would be convinced to allow him to be trained, but otherwise, he could wouldn't be trained. don't get me wrong- he IS the Chosen One, and he HAD to be trained but how is a different story. maybe a rogue jedi or dark jedi, he would become a jedi. eventually, the council would have let him become a jedi no doubt. but qui-gon would NOT train him without permission

 

Let's assume that both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon dismantled Darth Maul. Even still, Kenobi would be knighted. Anakin still did that great deed in space by blowing up the droid control ship, which is what got him trained any way.


Anakin was Qui-Gon's ward. Qui-Gon would be the one to train him. Qui-Gon would have granted Anakin permission to go free his mother since he already tried to free her but was denied.

I can see Qui-Gon being a little more strict with Anakin, but with a touch of elite wisdom to guide Anakin. Once they go to Geonosis, I can see Qui-Gon having told Anakin about the power of Count Dooku and how he was once his master. No matter what Qui-Gon and Anakin would have finished off Dooku.

Seeing that Qui-Gon cared for Shmi, he probably would have married her later on and encouraged Anakin to marry Padme if he so chose.

 

See, if Qui-Gon trained Anakin, which he said himself he would do without the Council's permission, he and Anakin would go back to Tatooine and free his mother, they would go back and free the slaves.

Seem Obi-Wan is 100 ide-hard follow the Jedi Order. He is bhook smart, if you will. Qui-Gon is more street smart. Qui-Gon says of Obi Wan in TPM, " He has much to learn of the living force, but he is capable" - and I take that to mean the way the world is, the life force of the galaxy and what makes it work. Obi-Wan has the skills, and the abilities, it is his way of thinking that contradicts Qui-Gon.

So, with Anakin under the guidance of Qui-Gon, they would and could go back to Tatooine at the first sign of the dreams that Anakin had. I remember that Anakin was not allowed to go to her, and the first time he is gone from Obi-Wan, and he has a dream, he goes to Tatooine.

If Obi-Wan understood the situation better, understood what emotions can do and what feelings can ravage on a person, if he were in touch with the living force, he would have gone back with Anakin, and freed his mother. Of course, Anakin would go to free her - he has no idea she was freed and married, etc.

Of course, Shmi has to die so that Vader would save Luke. But that is not what we are talking about here.

Madine out

 

If Qui-Gon had survived to train Anakin, things would have been a lot different. Palpatine would not have had such a relationship with Anakin, the boy would not have to seek guidance and understanding outside of the order with Jinn around. The ROTS novel has a great line by Obi Wan regarding Anakin, how he is loyal to people not principles; and who more loyal would Anakin be to than the person who secured his freedom and went to bat for him in front of the jc when no one else would?

 

Heck, I never knew Qui-Gon personally, but I'm very loyal to him.

I think Qui-Gon may have left the order over teh Anakin thing and joined Dooku. Imagine a spinoff group led by Dooku, Qui-Gon, and Anakin!

 

Well, since I am not reading the ROTS novel, nor do I want to know anything about ROTS, I will not really comment on the line farther, for fear of a rebuttal withe more ROTS info, but that line sort of spells out Anakin's character for those who cannot make consise sense of it all. And it is perfect. I may use that later in other discussions after the release of the movie.

Now, that is not a bad thing in real like. Perhaps part of the reason the Jedi "religion" is practically defunct at the beginning of ANH, is the arrogance that Yoda talked about in AOTC, and the inability to the ways to adapt to people's needs and wants.

Anakin would certainly had a relationship with Qui-Gon, and I am not so sure he would not have joined Dooku, as Dooku implied to Obi-Wan in AOTC. In fact, Qui-Gon was quite defiant of the ways and beliefs of the Council, how they did things. Perhaps Dooku felt the same way, and left. And Sidious provided promises of a better way.

Even young Anakin saw that the Republic was not working. (AOTC). Now, of course, it was being corrupted from within by Palpatine, but still - it was not working.

Now, who says that after Maul was killed, and say Qui-Gon did survive, that Qui-Gon would not be killed if he would not turn. See, Maul was Palpatine's instrument to eradicate the Jedi and take over the universe. Maul presumably would have started the war that Dooku did. But, Maul failed. The whole reason Dooku is with Sidious is because Maul is dead. It then became apparent that Anakin could be used as the instrument, that he was even more powerful than Dooku.

But If Maul was still killed and Qui-Gon not killed, I think he would be the person instead of Dooku, especially since Anakin would have been his student.

I realize this is grand conjecture, but certainly a realistic schenario, given what we know from the TPM.


Madine out

 

If they decided not to train Anakin, surely he would have been reunited with his mother. Palps knew of his existence and would have kidnapped him and trained him as a Sith from that point on.

 

I think if Qui-gon had survived, Anakin would have still be trained as a Jedi. Obi-wan had clearly put pressure on the Council at the end of the film to get Anakin trained. Since Qui-gon would have done the same, I find no reason to suggest that the decision would have been different had it been Qui-gon arguing, and not Obi-wan.

With regard to the mentor, I think Qui-gon would have been more equipped to deal with Anakin's hot-headedness. To say that he wouldn't have turned goes too far, but I definitely think there would have not been the resentment there such as that which Anakin had for Kenobi.

My final point is that I don't think Qui-gon would have joined Dooku. It was obvious that Dooku was using the Dark Side and accordingly Qui-gon would not have followed him. Plus, I doubt whether he would have fuelled the Separatist cause.

 

Qui-Gonn death was on purpose. He did not lose to Maul, he let Maul kill him. The whole thing was staged to get Anakin to be a Jedi. Read it for yourself:


The Force is the power that animates the Galaxy. In sentient beings it's evident in their imagination and actions. All life in the Galaxy represents The Force simply by the act of living. The power of life and death is The Force. The Force is the imagination - indivisible from energy and power - that built matter from energy and life from matter, and willed the Galaxy. It's an imagination so broad and unimaginably powerful that it has willed the entire Galaxy into being and all nearly all actions within the Galaxy - from a rain forest growing on Naboo, to the violent volcanoes on Lok, are carried out to the ever-flowing will of The Force.
Sentient beings are created by The Force as well. While nature is the face of The Force, sentience is its reflection. The ability to think, to reason, and to imagine is the essence of The Force. The Force is subjective. It creates and destroys with an even hand. The destructive power of Nature is balanced by the persistent power of peace. The volcano obliterates the land and covers it in death, yet life reclaims those grounds long before geology can repeat the destruction.

Sentient beings are a microcosm of The Force with their free will. They are free to define what is right and wrong, which ultimately makes those choices infinitely important, for they are the ones at the helm of their destiny, their very actions determine the nature of The Force and The Galaxy. Some of these sentients, chosen for reasons unknown and at random, are granted a special connection to the power of The Force through symbiont life forms in their cells called midichlorians. Whether midichlorians are antennae connected to the Force, or simply generators of The Force themselves, is unknown. Those who are strong with The Force have long recognized the two faces of creation: peace and destruction, and disciples of The Force adhere to one or more principles, mainly The Dark Side or Light Side of The Force.

Recognition of the opposing power of The Force rose with its disciples, and with that developed adherents of the two sides. Sentients unusually connected with The Force, through preference or discipline of their school, choose to draw their power and imitate either the Dark Side or the Light Side. Over time, students of the two powers became known as The Sith and The Jedi, respectively, and were antagonists.

Through a series of conflicts extending from prehistory, The Jedi proved victorious, wiping out The Sith. In the aftermath, some students of The Force, those rare independent minds capable of perception beyond instilled teaching, found the new peace in conflict with the will of The Force. If Sith and Jedi were reflections of The Force, the domination of one over the other, while being the natural propensity of both factions, was ultimately wrong. This view was heresay, and its proponents quickly rejected from the Jedi Order who never gained the status to spread their philosophy to others.

For these outcasts, life without an antagonist, while safe and comfortable, was ultimately decadent. The eradication of the enemy guaranteed the fragmentation of the Jedi Order, or an inevitable turnover from good to evil. The will of The Force dictated that an unopposed power of Light would eventually grow corrupt from within. Ancient sages, looking indirectly into the future, had long called for a 'Balance to The Force.' The true nature of this balance was unknown to those who directed the Jedi school, the members of the Jedi Council, who, after generations of domination after the fall of The Sith, lacked the imagination to appreciate the benefits of a rigorous lifestyle against an enemy in contrast to their unopposed domination of The Force. The Jedi had lost objectivity and were zealots; their order was doomed.

Objective Jedi who held views reaching beyond the teaching of The Order were rare. Potential students with a pr

 

Hmm, interesting. Just some points on your theory.

1) You're saying that Palpatine, Dooku and Qui-gon were all listening to the will of the force? So you're saying that the Sith follow the will of the Force?

2) Why would Palpatine set up a situation where his apprentice (Maul) would be killed by Jinn. In Episode I, surely that first duel where Maul reveals himself to the Jedi, is staged?

3) Given Qui-gon's character, affiliation with the Sith seem unlikely. Indeed, surely he made it more difficult for the Sith by telling the Council they had returned?

4) Even if Qui-gon had been seeking to reign in the power of the Jedi, do you really believe that he'd create a tool to slaughter 10,000 Jedi?

5) I've not read the books, but wasn't Dooku taken as an apprentice following Maul's demise? I thought he was the stop-gap replacement, as the Sith Master didn't have time to train a new apprentice.

6) Surely Palpatine's motives are solely for power. By arguing the bringing of balance, surely it diminishes the evil of the character, and indeed runs against it?

Just some thoughts

 

"""1) You're saying that Palpatine, Dooku and Qui-gon were all listening to the will of the force? So you're saying that the Sith follow the will of the Force?"""

No, Dooku and Qui-Gon were, Palpatine was just evil.

"""2) Why would Palpatine set up a situation where his apprentice (Maul) would be killed by Jinn. In Episode I, surely that first duel where Maul reveals himself to the Jedi, is staged?"""

I doubt Maul was informed. Qui-Gonn was a good swordsman. He fought Maul but didnt go for the kill. and Maul was not setup to die. In the article it says Qui-Gonn came up with the idea on the spot.

"""3) Given Qui-gon's character, affiliation with the Sith seem unlikely. Indeed, surely he made it more difficult for the Sith by telling the Council they had returned?"""

Qui-Gonn wasn't evil, he just saw the arrogance and complacencey in the Jedi order.

"""4) Even if Qui-gon had been seeking to reign in the power of the Jedi, do you really believe that he'd create a tool to slaughter 10,000 Jedi?"""

I doubt he knew the level Palpatine would go to.

"""5) I've not read the books, but wasn't Dooku taken as an apprentice following Maul's demise? I thought he was the stop-gap replacement, as the Sith Master didn't have time to train a new apprentice."""

I dont know, The EU isnt real.

"""6) Surely Palpatine's motives are solely for power. By arguing the bringing of balance, surely it diminishes the evil of the character, and indeed runs against it?"""

I think Qui-Gonn and Dooku were using Palpatine to get what they want. Like an animal they tried to wield to do good. (Like the Ring in LOTR)

 

No, Dooku and Qui-Gon were, Palpatine was just evil.

OK, that's plausible. But was it then the will of the force that Dooku became a Sith?

He fought Maul but didnt go for the kill. and Maul was not setup to die. In the article it says Qui-Gonn came up with the idea on the spot.

What idea? I didn't follow you there. To me it seems illogical that Jinn would be fighting part of the means by which they would bring balance.

he just saw the arrogance and complacencey in the Jedi order

I doubt he knew the level Palpatine would go to

Yes, I know he saw the complacency. But if what you're arguing is that the Force is out of balance because of the fact there are 2 Sith and 10,000 Jedi, Qui-gon must have know that the result of trying to bring balance would have been the resultant deaths.

I dont know, The EU isnt real

But then neither is your theory. The EU is just another explanation. Yes, I know I perhaps relied on it above (sorry!), but I'll modify my stance to say it's another explanation. Which would fit in with Yoda's statement about there always being two Sith. I find the EU explanation on this point more plausible

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As some other comments, I don't think Dooku was out to do good. From Episode II, he comes over as a political separatist who is out to increase his own power and standing. He has become a Sith Lord, which suggests that he joins Palpatine to become stronger ('I've become more powerful than any Jedi) and not because he adheres to the view that he needs to bring balance to the force. As Yoda says of a Sith, 'Lies, mistrust and deceit are his way now'.

My final point is on the will of the force itself. There is very little to go on with what this actually is. Indeed, in the films, it is only mentioned to Qui-gon by Anakin in Episode I. I think there is room as to what this acually means. If it is striking to balance the Sith and Jedi, how does Anakin's action really bring balance. At the end of Episode VI, you have one Force-user who is of the light side. How is that balance? Indeed, Yoda says 'Pass on what you have learned', encouraging Luke to train others in the ways of the Force. Surely if the balance is between Jedi and Sith, it then starts to go the same way with what Luke does with the Jedi of the Republic.

I'm not even going to try and speculate what the will of the force is, but just to point out some possible weaknesses in your theory

EDIT

Spelling and markup for easier reading!

 

Too full of unimportant bru-ha-ha that article you posted, so lets just point out one thing - the major hole in your theory -

Qui-Gon let himself die so Anakin can be trained...

Yeah, no way.

Obi-Wan let himself be killed for Luke to escape. All plot points in the movie did not add up to the sacrifice.

I do not buy it.

Madine out