PT [II Controversial] Padme's Death & Anakin's Turn

ROTS seems to be the best of the PT by the general audience and (mostly) fans.

However, it has the most game changing moments that really set the divider.

As in the title, Padme's Death(Losing the will to live) And Anakin' Turn(Either too quick or not "Plausible").

This has been talked, and still being talked about. Many say that it was a good idea and poor execution, terrible idea etc.

Personally, I feel, this was a good establishment and choice. To have love and lust be Anakin's denominator, destroying his mind, and have Padme not be physically killed by Anakin. Having Padme die of emotionally by Anakin, was a good decision.

Now here are the main arguments:

Padme was a bad mother
Anakin turned to quick
Anakin's turn made no sense
Padme's death made no sense
Why did Padme give up her kids?

You get the idea.

I presume for this debate to get real heated but please, keep it tame. Fans or non-fans alike.

 

For me this is part of the reason why RotS is tragic and powerful as the turning point in the saga - because things you mistakenly thought you absolutely could rely on break, and you're forced to go back and realise that indeed, they could break, one just trusted out of goodwill that they wouldn't.

When I was away at university my mother encountered a few occurrences like this ("things you mistakenly thought you absolutely could rely on break, and you're forced to go back and realise that indeed, they could break, one just trusted out of goodwill that they wouldn't") and even hearing it from her secondhand over the phone, it was terrifying - I don't think I've ever completely gotten over the paranoia that it induced in me. The question that RotS sets the OT up for and makes OT more powerful by setting it up is, how does one get over such experiences and even more importantly, how is one to raise the next generation and let them have some of the naïveté of the past while trying to protect them from the same trap (or should one even attempt to protect them from the same trap if the price of it is that paranoia?).

 

Padme was not a bad mother, she loved her children, but with all the trauma she has faced the past few days, the destruction of all she loved, democracy, the Republic, and finally Anakin, I can't blame her for just letting go. Even before going to Mustafar she seemed rather depressed, rather defeated, but when Anakin outright attacked her that was the final straw I think. Even her declaring Anakin's Goodness seemed to be just a last gasp of hope. Her children were going to grow up under a tyrants regime and there was nothing she could do about it, her grief was palpable, she truly suffered and just couldn't fight anymore. It wasn't out of a lack of love for her children that she gave up, but a simple spiral of depression, and tragedy that pushed her too far. I thought it was truly sad, and beautiful that she went out the way she did as Vader was "Born"

And I got the impression that Polis Masa wasn't exactly a state of the art Medical station, with the Empire on the hunt for Jedi they couldn't exactly go to Coruscant and get the latest medical treatments, they just went to a place they new there were sympathies for the Jedi, as took what they could get.

Anakins turn made complete sense to me, he was faced with days of torment over Padme's possible death, and Palpatine gave him a hope, however slim, that she could be saved. Plus over the clone wars he began doubting about the Jedi's integrity, and when he was asked to spy on the chancellor, and act that is effectively treason it pushed his loyalties to their greatest test. Upon finding out the Palpatine was actually a SITH his loyalties were put to their ultimate test, choosing between his friendly grandfatherly figure who has looked over him for years and the strained family that has shown to never really trust him and he has faced conflict with time and again. He initially chooses the order informing master Windu of the Sith Lords identity. But master Windu again fails to trust him and orders him to stay behind. That is something he can not do, he fears loosing Padme, and believes Palpatine is the only one who can do it. He disobeys orders and goes to the Senate, only to uncover Master Windu ready to murder the Chancellor in Cold blood, in a hasty emotional decision he aids in master Windus death, and he believes it is to late, he just effectively KILLED a high councilor, he couldn't go back to the Jedi, they might blame him as far as he knows. So with no other choice, and his determination to save Padme he Sides becomes Darth Vader.

I believe Vader was born that night in the Chancellors office, it was Vader who attacked the temple, killed younglings, and slaughtered the separatist council, not Anakin. He did so in a dark side high, he was effectively on some pretty hard drugs, his rational was clouded by the sheer power of the dark side. It was Vader who attacked Padme, not Anakin, and it was Vader who dueled Obi-wan on the lava lakes of Mustafar. Anakin still lived in him, he showed himself to Padme, he cared for her and still loved her. But seeing Obi-wan brought Vader to the surface, and it was he who attacked. I believe Anakin "Died" In Palpatins medical station, when he heard of Padmes death was the final straw, any compassion and humanity he had left was destroyed.

Anakin didn't turn fast, it was a series of slow steady steps for thirteen years that led him to the dark side. I never felt it was needed to be explained beyond the films, which do it excellently as far as i'm concerned, but TCW and the new comics do show some additional steps of how Palpatine corrupted him. These were implied in the movies but shown in these other mediums too. His aiding in killing Master Windu was just the final straw, that led to his fall from grace.

All of this is poetic, and beautiful, I wouldn't change a thing honestly.

 

People actually have died from a broken heart and lost the will to live, so it does not bother me.

 

On Anakin's turn, I think it makes sense and while quick, was fine. He basically finds out that Padme is pregnant and soon will give birth, while also having nightmares that she will die in childbirth. So he probably feels he has very little time to find a way to help her, even if she doesn't need to be helped. He just couldn't stand to lose her like his mother, because he has a bit of a problem with attachments. Plus he distrusted the Jedi except maybe Obi-Wan so those things would have led him to make a quick and rash decision to either keep Palps alive and do what he thinks is right and learn how to keep Padme from dying or lose her forever.

 

Anakin's turn was hardly quick. It was a slow build for 10 years as the Jedi and Obi-an didn't trust him and "held him back", while kind,gently, FATHERLY Sheev was always there with a kind word, a shoulder to lean on, propping Anakin up. In the last 3 years the turn went into overdrive, with Anakin finally tapping into the dark side, having his worst fears realized with his mother's death, and giving into his passions with Padme. There was a GREAT line in the ROTS novelization. Unfortunately, there would have been no real way to incorporate it into the film, as it was internal monologue by Dooku, But it showed where Anakin was at the beginning of the film,as the 2 of them dueled. Something like " No wonder the boy was so powerful. His anger and fear raged like a furnace behind the barriers he put up. He was half-Sith already,and didn't even know it."

He was already full of anger,fear,hatred,and passion. He just kept it hidden, tried to control or banish it. Palpatine manipulated him to let free what was already there.

 

Anakin's turn was brisk, no doubt. I liked it. He was at the crossroads when he made his decision to cut off Mace's hand. It was either seal his wife's fate and stay with the Jedi, who he already had problems with OR save his wife and join the Sith. He had faced his mother's death and could not deal with another woman he loved dying so he made his quick and rash decision.

There are many theories about Padme's death. if she truly did die of a broken heart then it makes sense. Her energy was drained emotionally and physically. Being choked out by her husband after the realization of what he has become. And then having to give child birth to twins. People have truly died of a broken heart before, so it makes sense.

 

Here's how I look at it (breaking it down into a section for Padmé and one for Anakin):

For Padmé, the issue I have with those who criticize her is that I don't know what they honestly expect her to do in her situation that would be better for her children. Now, you can argue that Lucas should not have written her into that situation in the first place, but when it comes to criticizing Padmé's behavior and her love for her children within the film itself, I just do not understand what people wanted her to do. If she had survived, well, then what? Does she go and live in the lap of luxury in Alderaan with Leia while sending Luke off by himself to the remote and harsh Tatooine to live with two people she met once for a few hours? Meanwhile, we're going to hide Padmé - the wife of Darth Vader - in the home of her good friend and Senator Bail Organa (she and Bail, notably, share a pod when Palpatine declares himself Emperor). And then there's the little matter of Anakin - this is a man who committed genocide and overthrew a government (in part) to keep her alive and who can sense her presence through the Force (as seen in the Padmé's Ruminations scene). Is there any doubt that Anakin/Vader would have ripped apart the galaxy looking for her? What does Padmé do if Anakin threatens her nieces and nephews and other innocent people on Naboo? She'd have to turn herself in, at which point, Anakin would inevitably learn of the existence of at least one of the twins. By dying, though, everyone thought the twins died with her and thus no one was looking for them. And this presupposes that Padmé could have even prevented her death, which she may not have been able to. I just think that people who criticize her and call her weak or a terrible mother really don't at all consider the fact that she was left in an impossible situation.

In terms of Anakin, the idea that his fall is "too fast" or "made no sense" makes me laugh because look at what we have to compare it with: Luke's. Luke's temptation in ROTJ. We are supposed to believe, in ROTJ, that Luke - the utterly kind, generally level-headed, self-sacrificing guy - could fall. And he's being tempted by the Emperor - someone who he has been warned against, is fighting against, and whose motivations are utterly clear, and whose ideology Luke rejects wholesale. If Anakin's fall is too fast or unbelievable then the idea that Luke could fall is utterly preposterous.

Let's look at the facts:

-Anakin, quite simply, is incapable of standing by and doing nothing after his vision of Padmé's death. Doing nothing cost him his mother and so, as irrational as some people may find his behavior, Anakin can't simply let things unfold. He needs to act, to prepare himself, and this is made explicit in the film - "I won't lose you the way I lost my mother." Furthermore, this was established in AOTC, that Anakin wouldn't accept losing the people he loved "I will be the most powerful Jedi ever. I promise you. I will even learn to stop people from dying....I wasn't strong enough to save you, mom. But I promise, I won't fail again."
-Palpatine is the only person to propose any kind of solution. Some have criticized Anakin for siding with Palpatine when he says that together they can discover the secret to cheat death. But at that point, what other choice does he have? Who else is offering a solution to his visions? Moreover, let's not ignore that Anakin is now complicit in Mace Windu's murder.
-Some people have suggested that Anakin should have just taken Padmé to a doctor. This doesn't at all alleviate his fears, though, because Padmé being healthy in the here and now does not prevent the possibility of a catastrophic medical issue arising during childbirth.
-Anakin does not have any allegiance to democracy. We know from AOTC that he doesn't think the system works because people can never agree. ROTS makes this clear "Well that can only mean less deliberating and more action. Is that bad? It will make it easier for us to end this war."
-Anakin believes in the Empire "I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire." and believes it will be to the benefit of the people of the galaxy.
-By siding with Palpatine, Anakin can immediately end the war - he is able to get the information necessary not only to go to Mustafar and kill the Separatist leadership but also to deactivate the droid units, thus, in a single act ending the war. And Anakin himself points this out "I'm going there to end this war." And Palpatine feeds him this "Now, Lord Vader, go and bring peace to the Empire." We know that Anakin desperately does want to end the war and so being able to essentially cause it to come to a complete stop would be a huge motive for him (one that he articulates in ROTS, in fact).
-Anakin, by ROTS, doesn't care about being a Jedi. He says as much to Padmé - that he doesn't care if the Council knows he's married. He feels excluded from the Council and that they don't trust him and, for some of the Jedi, he's right - Mace Windu waits until Anakin leaves before discussing removing the Chancellor from office. He also explicitly says he doesn't trust Anakin. And the behavior of the Jedi, when they go to arrest Palpatine, seems no better than that of the Sith on board the Invisible Hand. "He's too dangerous to be left alive." is the argument used in both cases.
-Many people say that it's foolish for Anakin to side with Palpatine when he has been deceiving him but this ignores the fact that Palpatine, by revealing his deception, is also demonstrating just how powerful he is. He deceived the entire Jedi Council for years and orchestrated a war right under their noses. If there is anyone powerful enough to save Padmé, then it is Palpatine. Moreover, this criticism ignores the fact that Anakin intended to get the information he needed from Palpatine and then overthrow him (as he tells Padmé on Mustafar). Anakin's intention was to rule the galaxy with Padmé.

Combine all these factors together and it's clear, to me, why Anakin chose as he did.

If he sides with the Jedi, he will continue to live under what he perceives to be a broken system of government, will have to mop up the rest of the Clone Wars (killing the Separatist leaders) which could take considerable time and cost many innocent lives, he will continue to not be seen as an equal by the Jedi (and he doesn't really care about them all that much anyway) and is convinced his wife will die in childbirth (and perhaps his children).

If he sides with Palpatine, he can end the Clone Wars in a day, form an Empire (which he believes will make the galaxy better for everyone), overthrow Palpatine after he gets the info he needs and rule the galaxy, and he will be able to save his wife and children.

In Anakin's mind, he stands to gain everything he's ever wanted if he sides with Palpatine. If he sides with the Jedi, he risks losing everything he holds dear.

 

Agree on every damn point by point.

Thanks for the well thought response, very good one at that.

Considering how big the wall o text is, how long did it take you to write this?XD