Is Attack of the Clones the ANTI-Phantom Menace?

In its review of Attack of the Clones, EMPIRE hailed it as the "Anti Phantom Menace." In their context this was praise, but it seems to me a lot of the problems people have with Attack of the Clones could be that Lucas's second instalement could almost have been a fan-film. Honestly, aside from the love story (which couldn't be taken out for obvious reasons) look what Lucas gave us; Bounty Hunters. Boba Fett. Jango Fett. DRASTICALLY reduced Jar Jar Binks. Jar Jar Binks being responsible for The Empire. The Clone Wars. Stormtroopers. Tattoine and The Homestead. Sandpeople. 1000s if Jedi fighting. A "car chase" through Coruscant. Yoda fighting. The Imperial March. And he chose to make the film in a much more abstract way.

So, given that he made a movie that was so differant to what Phantom Menace had been, why did so many people still dislike it?

Could it be because originally, before TPM was lambasted by the media, Lucas had intended Attack of the Clones to be substantially differant to how it ended up being and the feeling that this isn't how Episode II was supposed to be, somehow permeates its way into the overall narrative of the film? Is it a case of trying too hard to please the audiance and to make a movie that WASN'T The Phantom Menace, and because he tried so hard the audiance just didn't buy it?

BTW, it goes without saying that I've always loved Attack of the Clones and still rank it as my third favourite movie, so this is definatly NOT a bashing post. I'm just interested as to WHY Lucas made AOTC so differant in almost everyway to TPM, yet overall it still wasn't very well recieved (certainly not as much as I think it should be)

 

On seeing AOTC in theatres, I never got the impression that it was the anti-TPM. I enjoyed both movies very much, and thought they flowed well together. I think this is one of those things that people latch onto in hindsight. At the time both TPM and AOTC had fairly decent reviews by the majority of critics, using Rotten Tomatoes as a reference. Some people are bound to be dissatisifed with the prequels, because it's not exactly what they expected. The span of time between trilogies is unheard of, and so many people had preconceived notions that they never managed to get rid of.

 

I don't see it - I like them both for what they are.

 

i think it is in alot of ways, i think Lucas did try to give some fans what the wanted too see, Jango Fett, for example.

 

I love TPM and AotC. I never thought of it this way. It seems as if Lucas listened to the Ultimate Fanboy's opinions on the film, and he still gets bashed like crazy for Fett and Yoda w/ a lightsaber. Poor guy can never win.

 

The problems that I hear mentioned about AotC is solely based around the "love story".

I'm yet to hear a fan or critic say, "Jango Fett and Boba Fett were stupid." Or, "That battle with the clones and hundreds of Jedi was cheesy as hell." Or, "When Yoda came to save the day at the end, I walked out of the theatre."

In a lot of ways it seems that Lucas might have listened to fan feedback from TPM. The bad thing was, AotC had to involve the love story and I'm sorry to say that is not Lucas' forte.

Personally I loved both TPM and AotC. They are both Star Wars and they fit together well.

Thats the thing about DVDs. Just skip the scenes that are "hot garbage" and its all good.

 

You should've been here when the AOTC board was active. It's still around for reading, if you're interested




AOTC - bashed for everything
/LM

 

Perhaps you haven't heard enough of the critics. Read some of the posts in the Basher's Sanctuary and I gurantee you'll see some complaining how Yoda with a lightsaber is stupid because Yoda doesn't use a lightsaber and how Jango is some fanboy character.

 

After seeing it for the first time, I definitely thought something like "Wow, I didn't expect it ('it' being the general tone of the film) to be like this." But that wasn't a bad thing. Episode I was so light-hearted on the surface that I didn't expect Episode II's feel to be so much darker and so much more (in my opinion) similar and connected to the original trilogy. But I also had the same reaction after seeing Episode III - much more strongly, in fact. For example, as I reflected on it, I realized how amazing it was that Yoda and Darth Sidious were dueling in the same chamber in which Queen Amidala made her diplomatic plea in Episode I, and how I never thought back in 1999 that something like that would happen. The story took many twists and turns I did not expect, but I didn't see them as shortcomings in any way. The only time I ever felt like Lucas was trying to give the fans some sort of shout out was when the Death Star was shown under construction at the end of Episode III. There were a few elements in the films that I didn't think would have been made as much of a focus or as dramatic if the saga had been made in chronological order, but that was the only thing I ever felt was a bit excessive as far as referencing the original movies or trying to give the fans what they wanted goes.

 

After my first viewings of TPM and AoTC respectively, I was totally in awe. Sure I annoyed by Jar-Jar, the Pod Race and the AoTC love story, but they were small parts of otherwise great movies. I admit that TPM was not one of my favorites, but I think AoTC was fantastic. I still remember being shocked back than about hearing people constantly talking about how terrible the acting was. There had to be a love story. Maybe it was bad, but it was what, 15 minutes of screen time total? It's crazy how people will remember one thing they don't like about a movie and constantly use it to bash the movies.

That said, I don't think AoTC was the ANTI-Phantom Menace. The Stories had Similar Elements. - Amidala is in danger and must be protected. Top Ranking Jedi tries to learn the secret of why she is in trouble (Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan). Said Jedi meets up with "mysterious" strangers on the way (Anakin Skywalker, Jango Fett). Top Ranking Jedi ends up in a battle. Amidala, the one in danger, runs back into the dangerous situation. Two Jedi battle a Sith Lord near the end. Jedi have a small discussion about implications of the events of the movie at the end. No Jar-Jar = Anti-TPM? Is that what we are looking at?

Carnage

 

In its review of Attack of the Clones, EMPIRE hailed it as the "Anti Phantom Menace." In their context this was praise, but it seems to me a lot of the problems people have with Attack of the Clones could be that Lucas's second instalement could almost have been a fan-film.

Perhaps he made AOTC the way he did to be the anti-TPM, but I don't think so. ROTS had to be a dark movie, there was no getting around that. AOTC had to advanced the story of the clone war, again, there was no getting around that. As such, he couldn't spend another movie on Jake Lloyd and JJB, he had to bring in an older Anakin, clones and the likes and bring the tone of the movie down a notch. Had he not, ROTS would have been very much out of place.


I'm yet to hear a fan or critic say, "Jango Fett and Boba Fett were stupid." Or, "That battle with the clones and hundreds of Jedi was cheesy as hell." Or, "When Yoda came to save the day at the end, I walked out of the theatre."

Yes, people had problems with these thing. I loath the Yoda duel, myself.

 

I could agree that AotC IS the ANTI-Phantom Menace. I don't mean that in a demeaning way either. I loved TPM. I prefer TPM to AotC. Heck I prefer TPM to ANH. It ties with ESB as my favorite of the saga so I can honestly say that I would never bash the movie in a million years.

When I say that AotC is the ANTI-Phantom Menace I mean it this way:

TPM is a movie that GL clearly WANTED to make. It's full of things that interest him. His ponderings on symbyosis and the Force midichlorians and how all living beings actions effect the quality of each others lives. His crazy sense of humor and love of Buster Keeton being displayed through the irrepressible Jar Jar Bink. His sense of childhood innonocense as portrayed by the wonderful Jake Lloyd. His breakneck no-holds-barred race to an ending. It all gelled and worked wonderfully in TPM. The movie was clearly a labor of love and it showed. That movie had spark and spirit and flow.

I feel that spark and spirit and flow as well as the love wasn't as present in AotC. I think that GL's return to the director's seat was a big deal to him and he was really hurt by the backlash of a really vocal minority. I think he had an outline for a AotC that he really wanted to make and that he was too afraid of a second rejection to really make that movie. Instead he chickened it out and filled it with stuff that he thought we would like and that really cut into the movies spirit. It felt like a movie he felt obligated to do rather than a movie he wanted to do. He was clearly not having fun and so I didn't enjoy it as much.

I'm not saying that AotC is a bad movie. Far from it. It just wasn't GL's movie. It was our movie. I go to Star Wars to take a gander at GL's vision. If I want to see my vision on the screen I'll make my own damn movies. GL is the thinker of thoughts and the dreamer of dreams but come AotC he stopped thinking and he stopped dreaming and he started acting like a scribe listening to our whims and trying to project them onto the screen.

There's an AotC that we'll never see. An AotC that GL never had the courage to make. And that's a shame. That's a damn shame. AotC was a gift to the fans from GL and many of us were too damn ungrateful to thank him.

So yeah Attack of the Clones was the ANTI-Phantom Menace and I don't think I'll ever forgive the fanbase for it.

 

If you don't mind me digressing, I clearly remember that you didn't like Yoda fighting, but I don't know if I've ever heard your opinion on Yoda's duel in ROTS. Would you mind sharing?


Mace Windy,
windy, windier, windiest!

 

I don't know, Lucas has never really seemed to care what other people (including the fans) thought before.

He wanted a way to explain the clones, tie them into the Stormtroopers, and also bring Boba Fett into the picture. He couldn't have Boba fighting, so why not his dad/brother?

He had to have the love story, and it was probably a good time to start the Clone Wars, so why not have 100s of Jedi fighting and dying?

Dooku was a great ambiguous character whom I wish Lucas had created or at least mentioned for TPM.

Jar-Jar was inevitably going to have less screen time. Mace Windu was inevitably going to have more.

We can argue about Yoda fighting, but I think it's pretty clear what Lucas had in mind for ROTS all along, and he wanted to make sure it was going to work, so he did a "test run" for AOTC.

And in terms of the Coruscant car chase, there's some sort of chase in every SW movie.

What was unexpected? The Archives, the Kamino/clones/Sifo-Dyas mystery, Dex's Diner, Dooku's ambiguity, the Jedi weakness.


TPM introduced the Republic and the themes important to the PT and the Saga.

AOTC introduced the conflict.

ROTS resolved the conflict and tied everything into the OT.

 

Star Wars - bashed for everything.

 

Really? If you go outside these boards and onto smaller sites, most of them hate TPM and AOTC equally.

Of course, they also lavish praise on crap like Final Fantasy.

 

That was the point I was making. People find ways to bash ANH and ESB.

 

Wait why would someone walk out of the theatre when Yoda walked in to save the day????

 

A lot of people thought Yoda and Sids were above using lightsabers. They were such wizards of the force that they didn't use them as normal Jedi/Sith. I dont know if thats the reason, I for one love the Yoda duel, I would of prefered Dooku to fight Mace but w/e.

 

To be fair a lot of fans criticize the prequels its not just gamers, kind of the way things are. I think that is fine, remember that it is natural to be able to offer opinions and criticisms on anything, especially if you love it, because it matters. The only thing that annoys me is SW bashing from people I do not feel every really loved SW, and so they miss things that are obvious to the rest of us. I think no matter what you thought of the duel (personally I thought that Yoda looked more natural in E3) I dont think many real fans did not have their hearts in their throats when Yoda snapped out his saber.

PS: And I think that any PT haters should think more about this. Even if it is not perfect, would you really want to sacrafice all those moments where Lucas did bring you what you wanted (assuming that he did or ever did not). I may not stand by every single moment of the PT, but I can't imagine SW now without Qui-Gon, Coruscant, The Storming of the Temple, Palapatine fighting Yoda in the Senate on the eve of the fall of Anakin...I mean wow. I think people really do forget this, they focus too much on things they did not like. But almost everyone has some criticisms, even really die hard PT fans I have met. I think it only seems odd and creates rifts because for many many people, the OT was in their minds above any reproach at all, possibly just because of what SW was. I think that old gaurd fans are unused to having to not love everything about SW, and get above the top irritated. That has been my hang up, but reading people's thoughts has helped remind me what I love about SW, and I am grateful for that.

 

I don't buy that AOTC is the anti-TPM. That's wishful thinking on the part of TPM's detractors. The films are different because each story required a different eye from Lucas and his collaborators (sp). Because Lucas was going for a unified story that spans six films, each one has to have it's own distinct separation. TPM was put together as a real family adventure. A time of peace. Innocence. This innocence starts to shift and weaken as we move into the Clone Wars and totally breaks down with the Jedi Purge. Then we go back to the days of high adventure, before returning to the dark feeling and ending on a light note.

Lucas had intended to use TPM as the set up and then move things foward with the two follow ups. Jar Jar's role was lessened because that's what the story dictated. The Jedi appeared en-masse because the story dictated it. Boba Fett was going to be part of the story, regardless. The Courscant chase follows the Speeder Bike Chase and the Asteroid Chase. Each one following under the heading of Lucas being inspired by chases from the classic cinema.

 

I think that's nonesense..Lucas made the films how he wanted them to be ..not the fans..well..maybe Jar-Jar

 

Is Attack of the Clones the ANTI-Phantom Menace?

Well possibly it is to some people, not to me. AOTC is a good movie and my biggest gripe is with the love story, well, the chesse of it anyway. However for all the good points I still would rate the film three out of five stars myself and I do put it at number 5 on my favourite list in the saga, just in front of TPM.

 

I think you've understood what I was trying to get at, but posted it in a better way than I did. Like you, I do get a sense that a lot of the stuff Lucas put into AOTC was primarily for us fans, and possibly not so much what he would have done has TPM be universally well recieved. For instance, would Jar Jar Binks have been toned down so much, had he been popular with everyone?

Mind you, I actually come to a differant conclussion overall to you. I much prefer AOTC to TPM, and I love the fan-film feeling of the movie. I just wish more people could see AOTC's greatness.

 

TPM feels the most like a MOTION PICTURE to me. It was shot on film, features the richest and most lavish of John Williams' prequel scores (in my opinion) and has the best blend of CG and practical effects/miniatures of all the prequel films (in my opinion). Because it is the first film in the newer trilogy, it is also the one least affected by public backlash; logically, there's no way Lucas had a chance to let the ensuing negativity compromise his filmmaking ideals and stortelling method. TPM is not a flawless work - but it is free of issues which I feel blighted Episodes II and III. I'm grateful for all of that. I definitely prefer TPM to AotC. But TPM and RotS are almost equal beasts in many ways (except for those areas outlined).

Is AotC the "anti-Phantom Menace"? Empire WOULD say that, wouldn't it? I have absolutely no respect for film magazines; they're assembled by 20-something nobodies who misplace their own Generation X tastes for actual film criticism. Screw them. But I respect how that comment has been woven into this thread to establish a particular line of discussion. So again... is AotC the "anti-Phantom Menace"? In some ways, I would have to say that it is. It feels like a very different film - and is a very different film - to TPM on a number of levels (some good, some bad). Fortunately, though Lucas might have compromised in a number of areas, he clearly didn't compromise on the love story - and that happens to be my favourite aspect of the film. I couldn't care less if every last person on the planet disagrees with me (fortunately, they don't- even if most don't care for it). I just knew Lucas was on to a winner the moment that Padme quietly turned to Anakin and said, "Don't grow up too quickly", while a delicate hint of "Across The Stars" played in the background. Beautiful. Just beautiful. And there was much more to come.