CT The battle of Endor

If the Emperor hadn't died and the Death Star II been destroyed at Endor, do you think that the Rebel fleet would have escaped or been totally destroyed by the Imperial Fleet?

They were totally hemmed in by the DS, the Star Destroyers, and the moon afterall. And according to the film and Timothy Zahn, only once Palpatine died did the Imperials fall apart.

My second question is: Was the entire Rebel fleet at Endor? It looks a little small to me, and they wasn't really expecting a fully operational DS and a rear guard imperial fleet.

Was the rumour about a rebel fleet massing at Sullust by Darth Vader in the film just that - a rumour planted by the Rebels, or was the Rebel fleet actually split into two fleets or more?

 

If Luke/Vader had not destroyed the Emperor, and if the Death Star hadnt been destroyed.. then yes, im sure the Rebels would have been destroyed for sure.

The Rebel fleet looks small, it might be that they split the fleet in two for strategical purposes; what if their intel on the Death Star and the Emperor was wrong? In other words a A trap . Maybe they felt they couldnt afford to take all the risk at once; if something happened to the first fleet, then at least they had a back-up that would ensure the continued survival of the resistence even if they failed that particular offensive.

 

Have you ever read the novelization?

Do you know if the Sullust fleet was real?

 

I was of the understanding that the "Rebel fleet massing near Sullust" was the Rebel fleet, that's where they assembled before launching into hyperspace towards Endor.

It's an odd exchange between Vader & Palpatine, it seems Palps is keeping Vader in the dark about his plans, that's why he tells him the Rebel fleet is "of no concern". Vader mightn't have been completely aware that the Rebels were about to attack.

 

It might be that Darth_Nub is right. I have read the novelization, but cant say i remember much of it, its been a while ago since i read it.

Think i have to watch the movie again, and with this in mind see how i interprete it..

 

No, the novel is pretty specific in Vader knowing that Endor is a trap. At the end of Vader's arrival on the Death Star he tells Jerrjerrod (paraphrased) "The time is coming near when we can finally crush the Rebellion in a final stroke."

Anyway, yeah, the Rebels were doomed if Vader hadn't killed the Emperor.

 

Even so, Palps treats Vader like a common subordinate, not his valuable right hand. Vader has information to offer, but the Emperor dismisses it as so much fluff, because he already knows, & takes the opportunity to put his dog in its place. "Go back to your ship & do what you're told. When you need to know something, I'll tell you."

Having been on the receiving end of such arrogant, obnoxious instructions from similarly colossal @#$holes in my professional life, I can see why Vader took the golden opportunity to toss his S.O.B. of a boss down a reactor shaft, dying son or not. I wish I'd had such an opportunity.

As far as the circumstances at Endor are concerned, it doesn't change anything. Vader's sources have let him know that the Rebel fleet is massing near Sullust. The Emperor's sources have done the same. Vader wants to know more specifics, Palps wants him to do what he's told, & tells him so. "Go to the command ship & await my orders. BOY."

 

Yeah, I know what you mean-I think the audience left TESB liking Vader at least a little (I know I really enjoy his storyline and acting in Empire, anyway) and seeing the Emperor treat him like a child irked everyone, I'd guess. Then again, the Emperor is obviously supposed to be completely reprehensible in ROTJ; the ego just drips off the wall with him and it's hard not to cheer when Vader tosses him.

 

According to the RotJ novel (pg 71), the Rebel fleet was so large that the human eye couldn't see one end from the other. So, I'm assuming that since we only saw snippets of the rebel fleet, we only saw a part of the imperial fleet, too.

And it was, and always will be, fun watching Ani kill Lord Vader then slam-dunk the emperor down the shaft in DSII. The end of the Sith was exactly like the begining of Order 66 (both had a grand master take a fall down a very large pit).

 

Darths Nub and Boba, you are so right that it's shocking that the the Sith Master treats his subordinate poorly. How shocking!! What a douche! Who knew?

Seriously, IIRC didn't Palpy tell Vader to remain on the command ship and Vader still visited Palpy on the DS? Perhaps that's why Palpy dismissed Vader so abruptly.

Also, the Rebel fleet was at Sullust. Palpy knew where they were and when they were coming. Hence the trap was laid and would have been successful except for the Chosen One.

 

If the Emperor had not died, and the Death Star was Destroyed, the rebels would been wiped out. Palpatines plan was to destroy the ships that came to the Death Star, then send his rear fleet to finish the rest of the rebel fleet at Sullust.

 

And it assembled in the Sullust star system (IIRC the "blue" planet mentioned was Sullust, at least in the ROJ Portfolio but now that doesn't really reflect in Star Wars Battlefront).

Up to this day I had always doubts whether we really saw the entire Imperial Starfleet assembled. I understood Solo's "There are a lot of command ships" remark as a hint that there were more Super Star Destroyers around and not just the Emperor's above the forest moon.

I believe the Empire left the other Super Star Destroyers in key locations but assembled most of its regular Star Destroyers near the forest moon of Endor (according to ESB "one fleet" of Star Destroyers only consisted of Executor and 5 regular ISDs, thus at Endor there were at least the regular ISDs of six fleets present).

Considering that the shot of the Rebel fleet retreating towards the forest moon showed many, many Rebel ships still functional after an exhausting batlle, suggested to me that we had - indeed - seen the entire Rebel fleet present.

And undoubtedly the Rebel fleet had one big advantage. By the time of ANH the Empire's battle strategy revolved around fighting capital ships, suggested by the Death Star's defences and the big gun's of the Devastator Class Star Destroyers.

Already in ESB and the new VFX model it's obvious that the new Avenger Class Star Destroyer design replaced the big lateral ship-to-ship broadside guns with anti-starfighter quad guns as a reaction to the "snubfighter threat".

The Imperial Star Destroyers at Endor were apparently of the latter kind, but the unexpected change of the Rebel's battle strategy would have actually made the old Devastator Class Star Destroyers the optimal ships for this kind of close-range battle.

Simply put: Had more of these old Star Destroyers taken part in the battle, I wonder whether the Rebel fleet would have lasted as long as it actually did.

 

IIRC, at one point GL said the Empire had 25,000 Star Destroyers. Most of them were spread throughout the galaxy trying to find the rebel fleet, but with that many available, they could easily sneak a few (dozen? hundred?) to Endor and still amass enough ships to have an overwhelming advantage.

As for the Alliance order of battle, I've always had the impression that they saw Endor as their one and only chance to win the whole war in one battle, therefore they committed everything they had to winning it. They even brought along the Gallofree transport ships, which seem to be utterly useless in battle (according to WEG RPG sourcebook stats).

 

I'm not aware of such statement. In ANH Solo said "The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the planet. It'd take a thousand ships with more firepower than I've..."
His statement always suggested to me that we were looking at less than 1,000 Star Destroyers.

The Rebel Transport ships were apparently used as "fireships" in the bombardment of the Death Star. The ROJ novelization describes crews setting their ships on a course and then abandoning these, probably using the cockpit pods near the aft of these ships.

Then one explanation I'm still looking for are all these heavily armed Rebel commandos running around in the Falcon's corridors during the battle in the deleted scenes. Did they intend to land on the Death Star and take the Emperor prisoner?