Lit Are the Sand People the descendants of the Kumumgah?

I am not sure if this has been brought up before, but the following line from the Illustrated Star Wars Universe caught my eye on page 44, when discussing the Sand People:

"Handing their chants down from generation to generation, they remember the great and devastating space battles that laid waste much of Tatooine and stewed the desert with wrecked battleships."

That sure sounds like the Kumumgah to me, following Tatooine's fall at the hands of the Rakata...

Thoughts?

EDIT: crap, looks like this was already thought of. Move along, move along.

--Adm. Nick

 

I think the Kumumgah are the ancestors of both Sand People and Jawas. I may be wrong, but was that revealed in the KOTOR video game?

 

*waves hands* These aren't the Kumumgah you are looking for *waves hand*

I believe it was heavily implied if not outright stated but yeah I think thats correct. The Old Republic also has a carving that mentions multiple races of Kumugah lived though only the Sand People and Jawas survived in the end.

 

In the KOTOR 1 videogame in the sandpeople village their was a hint that Tatooine could be the homeworld of the Human race. When you're talking to the sandpeople chief he will tell you a story about Tatooine's past and if you choose the right answer then HK-47 will be saying something about Tatooine being the planet were Humans originated from.

But since Dawn of the Jedi, this isn't possible anymore, 'cause we see Humans being brought from Dathomir to Tython (~36000 BBY) before Tatooine with only Kumumgah living there is shown (~25,700 BBY).

 

It's still possible if humans and Kumumgah simply share a common ancestor. Humans somehow made their way to other planets, Kumumgah didn't.

 

Hmm, if Kumumah had multiple races, I suppose that could be the link, with humans an offshoot that migrated off world?

 

In 200,000 BBY there has been a battle between the Nations of Zhell and the Taung on the planet Notron, later renamed Coruscant. The Zhell are supposed to be the ancestors of the Humans. So then Zhell and Kumumgah must have originated on Tatooine and someone, maybe the Celestials has brought the Zhell from Tatooine to Coruscant.

 

The Zhell are described as being indigenous to Coruscant, while the Kumumgah had a chance to evolve on Tatooine before its glassing (DOTJ 1 shows Tatooine with oceans, and the KOTOR story from the Tuskens describes a temperate world). Also, Tuskens and humans can't interbreed (see A'Sharad Hett's backstory for more information), so we're probably talking about two different humanoid species.

Now, there is a mention in the Tusken Storyteller's tale in KOTOR that the Tuskens were outraged at the human settlers at Anchorhead, because they resembled the arrogant, machine-using ancestors of the Tuskens taken as slaves by the Rakata. Yet, KOTOR also establishes that humans were not taken as slaves by the Rakata (which DOTJ skirts around, given that Xesh looks fairly human ...).

If the Tuskens of Revan's time were derisive of the Kumumgah - who at least appear humanoid - then it's possible that selective breeding could have altered the appearance of Tuskens significantly beneath their robes so much that they don't appear Kumumgah (or humanlike) any longer.

And then there's the canonization of Jawas being rodents beneath their robes. If they're descendants of the Kumumgah, is it possible the Kumumgah are an example of parallel evolution - not simians, but sapient rodents who evolved that they appeared humanoid in DOTJ 1?

 

But the New Essential Chronology says

 

Hmm. This does fit with DOTJ - unless, at a later point, Xesh is revealed as Kiffar or something. Maybe the Rakatan droid on Dantooine only had limited knowledge, or damage after 20,000 years in storage.

 

Pretty sure that Tuskens and humans are not supposed to be related in modern continuity. Most sources seem to be pushing the idea that humans/Zhell are native to Coruscant, while everything seems to suggest that the Tuskens/Kumumgah are native to Tatooine. Plus according to Republic humans and Tuskens can't interbreed. I don't remember what HK-47's exact supposition is but I think it's been written off as wrong.

 

Maybe the Rakata have build the temple on Dantooine and it's guardian droid before they've enslaved the Humans (~30,000 BBY).

 

The idea that the Infinite Empire didn't enslave humans basically just comes from the fact that a droid on Dantooine didn't understand Basic nearly 27,000 years afters the fall of the Rakata. That's a lot of time for a language to change. I don't know overly much about the various languages but would humans be speaking something along the lines of Old High Galactic when the Rakata first came, while they were speaking Galactic Basic Standard by the time of KOTOR, which would be like comparing Latin to English.

 

Good point. I guess we could just assume the Selkath language didn't evolve half as quickly as whatever humans were speaking.

Anyway, as for HK (interpreting the Tusken storyteller), this is what he had to say:

Translation: It begins with the ancient times. They were not Sand People, for there was no sand. The land was green with life, and they walked without wrappings.
Translation: Though the land was beautiful, they lived apart from the land. They built their walls high, and saw beyond the horizon. They dared to reach to the stars
Translation: There are no words for how long ago this was. It was before the outsiders, before the abduction, before the cities fell. Before the Builders.
Translation: [Unintelligible]
Translation: His arrogant people touched the stars, and this sin drew the attention of the Builders. The Builders did not touch the stars; they lashed them to millstones.
Translation: Great demons of metal stripped the world of its riches, until all that was left was the green of the ground. The great cities were lifted away.
Translation: Those that had used the wealth were taken along with it; transgressors abducted to serve past the sky, seeding the stars with penitent, adaptable slaves.
Translation: [Unintelligible]
Translation: There came a time when the Builders were also judged for their crimes. After generations, a plague weakened them, and the time of the great war began.
Translation: The Builders faltered, and his people realized why they had been punished: so that they understood the crime, and would now strike down the greater offender.
Translation: They worked chaos in the machines so they destroyed themselves. The Builders fought back, laying waste to the green that had been misused with fire from above.
Translation: Soil became glass, grinding to sand, but the fight was long-planned, and his people were safe. Deep in cave-homes carved from valley wall, they were free.
Translation: [Unintelligible]

Editing: If I may, master, this section of his tale details several millennia of "the long walk," their nomadic wanderings as they accept their identity in a desert world. Rather than strain my circuits on his dialect, might we just assume there was much fighting over who has the biggest bantha and move to more recent things?

(SEVERAL HOURS LATER)

Translation: [Unintelligible]
Translation: The tribes spread far, distant from each other, but all as Sand People, and all cherished the land that remained. The sand would not be misused.
Translation: Then machines fell from the stars again. Outsiders, like you, that brazenly walked apart from the land. And greater still was the insult to come.
Translation: These outsiders reminded them of their past transgressions, of the time when they too walked apart from land. The outsiders - your kind - look like their ancient abducted.
Translation: So it is to the current suns, that the Sand People hate all outsiders and give them no footing. You come again, time after time, adaptable slaves to the machine.

 

I think that the Kumumgah being descendants of a human colony doesn't work so well, as they had a lot of time to evolve and grow into a prosperous culture and we know that Tusken Raiders are unable to breed with baseline humans. Also, while Tatooine was hinted at potentially being the human homeworld, more recent EU sources such as The Essential Atlas have resurrected the Marvel described homeworld of "Notron" and mentioned that it was most likely an older name for Coruscant. While the Kumumgah and humans may not be related, it is interesting to note that their appearance in Dawn of the Jedi makes them at least appear visually similar; bidepal, humanoid frames, builds, skin tones and facial structures. The only main differences seem to be flatter ears and noses, and the colouration of the eyes. So while humans and Kumumgah may or may not be related, it certainly makes sense that the Tuskens would view the arriving human colonists as bearing a close enough resemblance of their ancestors to remind them of the past.

 

Maybe being unable to breed with baseline humans is due to a minor shift in genetics? Certainly there is a good deal of variation in real life, in the amount of difference two species have to have between then, to be unable to breed together.

Or at least, unable to produce fertile offspring together.

Bottlenose dolphins and false killer whales are very different- yet they have produced fertile offspring called wholphins,

Lions and tigers are very similar- yet their offspring are normally sterile (with a few exceptions).

 

When in doubt, the Mother Machine did it.

 

What's the Mother Machine?

 

Doesn't the droid also say that it doesn't recognize Revan's species because it wasn't enslaved by the Rakata? I think there's more to it than just the language.

 

It says:

"But you are not of the slave species. Neither are you of the Builders. You are like the one who came before." and also "You are neither Builder nor slave. If you seek the secrets of the Star Forge you must first prove yourself worthy. Only then will the sealed door behind be opened."

However, one could infer that it only comes to that conclusion because their language isn't one in its slave species database. I'm certainly not convinced that was the original intention... but considering that every source since (beginning with the NEC) has insisted that humanity WERE among the Infinite Empire's slaves (possibly even KotOR, itself, though via a "humans are abducted pre-sandpeople" stance), it'll do as far as explanations go.

But, yeah, it's not like people went, "Well, hey, if the machine didn't understand Basic, I guess that means humanity weren't slaves!" We were told they weren't.

 

The Mother Machine is a Rakatan device in The Old Republic MMO. Its codex entry has the strange addition that it was responsible for creating quite a few of the sentient races in the galaxy, far, far away

 

Basic has been created in ~15,000 BBY. Before this the Republic has used Old Galactic Standard from ~25,000 to ~15,000 BBY. Before the Republic, there was "Ancient Basic", the poem "Dha Werda Verda" is written in it.

But with Dawn of the Jedi comes a little confusion. The Tythans and the Rakata both speak English (their texts are written in English), and English is Basic.

Maybe they speak Tythonese and Rakatan and those have been translated into English for us. But Xesh and the Je'daii are able to understand each other since they've first met. And you can't learn a new language in a few seconds. So it's clear that Xesh and the Je'daii on Tython both speak the same language.

Aurebesh has been in use by the Rakata ~25,700 BBY, too.

 

Well, maybe the Rakata and their agents are skilled in the same arts Revan was?

"You used the Force to draw the Rakata language from our minds, even as you planted Basic into our skulls so we could help you in your quest to escape this world."

Who's to say from where Revan learnt that skill, originally? Still, I don't recall seeing evidence of such a technique and, while it's hard to imagine that Xesh and the Je'daii would speak the same language... I think that's what we're meant to assume, yeah. I'm sure it'll be explained.