JCC Pope watch MMXIII (MMXXV Edition)

That's a curious point of view in light of the church's political campaigns against legal abortion and condoms.

 

"I'm not trying to push my religion on anyone. But here, let me push political positions that either advance my religion or my religion's policies. It's totally different."

 

Have they tried to ban condoms? I just know the Church doesn't want to fund contraception, or want it to be publically-funded.

Abortion they believe is murder though, and that's not necessarily a strictly religious argument, there are atheists who argue that personhood begins at conception too.

 

Oh sure, there must be, but I've never heard of one. Hitchens believed in 'the unborn child' but he never campaigned against legal abortion and never believed in something as anachronistic, unfalsifiable and inherently stupid as 'ensoulment'. I doubt he thought a fertilised human egg had thoughts, feelings or a soul, because they're positions of faith.

It's not necessarily a religious argument in theory, but it literally is in practice.

Yes, the church has attempted to ban condoms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraception_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

 

Ghost, I'd ask you to name a prominent atheist who believes life begins at conception. It's a rare position for a non religious person.

 

It's a moral argument. Certainly you've heard an atheist make a moral argument before? They are so moral, after all...

 

You seem to have mixed the 'abortion is immoral' argument with the 'life begins at conception' argument. The former being the moral one and the latter being the one darth ghost brought up.

 

I don't feel like I've mixed anything up....

"Life begins at conception" is a fact given to us by Almighty Science.

Assuming that you throw Science out the window, any arguments for or against defining the new life as a "person" can be based on strictly moral considerations. Religious considerations need not be taken into account.

 

You've got to be kidding.

 

Sperm and ova maintain homeostasis. They're alive. Life begins before conception.

Just because it's life doesn't mean it's a person.

 

STOOOOOOOOOOOOOP

 

So all the spermatazoa that die off in your testicles go to limbo too? I mean, they may be "life" but they're not human life until they have brain function.

 

A fertilised egg is alive, like a fertilised cress seed is alive. I have no problems with that definition. The point I was making is that the Catholic belief in ensoulment is an ideological position of faith that is pushed on other people (via political pressure to criminalise abortion), contrary to the statement that the Catholic church has been against forcing ideology on people for 100 years made by Summer Dreamer.

I don't deny it's a moral argument, but communism makes moral arguments too.

 

This thread makes me lose IQ points.

 

Didn't know that.

Honestly, I can't name a single prominent atheist (except that Dawkins guy).

Catholics don't view it as an ideological position of faith, but as a scientific fact that the human person begins at conception and want the law to recognize that. Additionally, that's when they believe the soul is created. I could be wrong on that, but that's how I've always understood the position of pro-life Catholics. They don't see it as a religious matter, of pushing their religion on anyone.

 

The soul itself is not a scientific fact, it's a matter of faith. Whether the Catholic church sees it as a religious matter or not (they do though), it is an aspect of their own ideology that they try to push on other people through their shameful attacks on abortion. Ditto for their stance on women's rights, homosexuality, contraception, sexual health, poverty, etc. Their ideological bias is inflicted on others - probably with the noblest intentions - but resulting in misery for people.

Life, as OBZ said, begins before conception with the production of sperm and eggs. How sacred they are depends on faith alone, but you'd have to be pretty messed up to afford human rights to gametes. A sperm is not half a person, an egg is not a whole person.

 

Abortion is murder, V-2. Accept it.

 

Well, duh. I'm just saying that Pro-Life Catholics think science is on their side when it comes to abortion.

Yeah, of course they have an ideological agenda. But they don't see it as pushing their religion on anyone. Also, they (usually) believe in a healthy separation of church and state.

Whether zygotes and embryos and fetuses are recognized as legal persons or not is also a matter of law, not just faith.

 

Pffft.

 

much liek ur poasting

 

Ah but the argument was whether or not they push their ideologies on others. I think you've practically conceded that point by now.

I take issue with the notion that Catholics usually believe in separation of Church and State. I direct your attention to Vatican City and leave it at that.

Of course most material things are a matter of law, but the Catholic/pro-life position is not based on science but faith; even if some laypeople don't understand that, the church leaders, theologians and activists who cherry pick and misrepresent the scientific evidence to their flocks certainly do.