Discussions Is Darth Plagueis the strongest Sith in Bane's Order?

I'm curious really. From what was seen, his force powers and light saber skills seem to be vastly above any other seen in Bane's lineage, not to mention that Palpatine became one of the most powerful Sith Lords in existence due to his teachings, so just how powerful was Plagueis? Could he have been the strongest Sith Lord in Bane's Order? He is so powerful that Palpatine would not dare to challenge him in combat, and chose to merely kill him through his loss of foresight

 

Plagueis did not challenge his own master in conventional ways either.

To me Palpatine was clearly the most powerful, and he fought and killed both Jedi and Sith, head to head while outnumbered, to help support his claim.

 

I can't think of a Sith that has challenged their master to direct combat. This seems to be contrary to the Sith ways.

 

Palpatine is more powerful than Plagueis.

Maybe he wasn't by the time he murdered him, but he definitely became more powerful than his master.

 

Don't forget one important fact. Power is not always defined by fighting skills, and while Plagueis was an immensely powerful fighter, he had also apparently discovered a way to live forever and to keep others from dying shortly before his demise. Due to Palpatine hastily murdering him, he never learned this from Plagueis, and used Clone Bodies to survive later on, and ultimately fell due to it. Also at previous poster, the Sith are always defined by strength, and it is a law to defeat a master in open combat to gain the title, although most Sith don't follow it, Darth Zannah killed Bane in honorable combat.

 

I believe that had Palpatine challenged his master to a straight up fight (As the Rule of Two actually dictates one should) he would've lost. The problem is that this is decades before not only ROTJ, but DE as well. That's decades more experience for Sidious to learn and develop in the Force and Sith Sorcery, so at that point it becomes murky as to whether or not Sidious would lose. Yeah he had the Force Storm ability later on in life, his own invention. But then Plagueis had the ability to stave off death. Palpatine never found a way around that, and by that I mean directly countering it with the Force. (He tricked Plageuis and therefore negated the possibility of having to confront the skill at all.)

 

Palpatine became exceedingly powerful afterwards. Featwise, Plagueis is no where near him (at least after the novel), and there's nothing to suggest Plagueis would be able to challenge DE Sidious. And I don't know if he would've lost had he challenged Plagueis directly. Maybe, maybe not but we'll never know for sure.

 

I acknowledged that. He had the Force Storm ability, yet he never became powerful enough to counteract Plagueis Midichlorian ability. Based on that, and his reaction immediately following his Master's death, i'm inclined to believe he certainly would've lost had he challenged him years ago. Years later in DE its hard to say, as its not like he can use Force Storm in the midst of a battle when he's there. He never showed the ability to localize and diminish it to appear over an opponents head, suck the opponent into space, and be unharmed. What's more, it doesn't matter if his Master's able to keep himself from dying anyways, which is my point in noting the ability. Palpatine could kill Plagueis, and Plagueis could heal himself. Really it seems more like an eternal battle to me.

 

Except that Plagueis' midichlorian manipulation ability cannot be applied to combat situations and it's not strictly related to power, but to knowledge. I know knowledge is power in the Sith universe, but this specific piece of knowledge couldn't be applied to combat situations and it's the only thing Palpatine never achieved in comparison to his former master. Palpatine, on the other hand, is widely considered the most powerful Sith Lord to ever live. I doubt Plagueis was superior to him even by ROTS, let alone the OT and DE. I see maximun potential Palpatine defeating Plagueis on a duel.

On a straight face-to-face duel, Plagueis has never demonstrated to be able to utilize this ability to survive. His midichlorian manipulation makes him immortal in the sense that he can never die, not that he cannot be killed in conventional ways.

 

Can't be applied to combat situations? Says who?

I see you saying it would happen, talking about potential and Sidious growth in the Force, but doing nothing to make me thing so, therefore I stand by my earlier statements

I don't see why the ability wouldn't be usable in a duel. He can be wounded, and then heal said wounds, which is the reason Palpatine chose to kill him in the way he did, where he wouldn't know he was wounded and wouldn't be able to do anything about it. If he's aware he can simply heal the wounds and therefore keep himself from dying.

 

Sion writ-large?

I don't know enough about Plageuis to comment though.

 

As far as I recall from the novel, Plagueis never used his unique power in a combat situation; you're only assuming he's able to heal himself and fight simultaneously.

The 'Complete Visual Dictionary' states Sidious as the most powerful Sith ever, which was re-released in September 2012. It outdates the Plagueis novel. If that doesn't convince you...

Sidious annihilated about 50 stormtroopers with his mind.
Sidious slew Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin, who are stated as 'celebrated swordsmen' and two of 'the Order's finest' in mere seconds. He then proceeded to kill Fisto, who was one of the few Jedi who could hold his own against Grievous, only moments later.
Sidious single-handedly dominated Savage Oppress and Darth Maul simultaneously, both extremely skilled and powerful combatants.
Sidious' lighting is so powerful that when used at full power he is able to instantly destroy opponents, turning them into husks.
Sidious could produce storms powerful enough to destroy an entire planet.
Sidious is Yoda's equal as of RotS, who is stated as 'the most devastating foe the darkness had ever seen.' Post-RotS, he clearly surpasses Yoda.

That's not nearly the end of it... But it's already more than anything Plagueis has to his name in terms of Force power and combat abilities.

Whether he could defeat his master directly instead of cowardly at the time of his (Plagueis') death is debatable, but there is no question that he eventually and ultimately surpassed his master.

 

Yes i'm assuming that once he's learned and mastered an ability he can do it anytime he wants to.

Not saying Sidious isn't the most powerful Sith ever. I'm stating that doesn't make him a God that can therefore do anything, getting around his Master's ability being one of them. It's similar to Darth Nihilus or Darth Sion, where it's not necessarily about raw power, but needing to get around their specific ability.

 

I'm not saying Sidious is a God (though he's damn near close to being one), I'm saying he'd defeat his master in a duel.

Following all Star Wars logic ever seen, even the most powerful of the most powerful cannot heal themselves while simultaneously battling a powerful opponent... The burden of proof is on you. And in this case the powerful opponent is not only powerful, but extremely powerful. I doubt Plagueis is the exception, or else he would be invincible, which he wasn't.

 

Walls of text

Sometimes a little @thisperson can avoid the endless repetition of quotes

As for how I feel. If Plagueis could use his midichlorian altering abilities to save his own life, he should have.

In fairness we simply have so much more knowledge about Palpatine than we do his master that it isn't quite fair to list head to head accomplishments.

 

General Valerian I'm saying that he wouldn't based on not being able to get around his Master's Midichlorian Manipulation.

We've hardly ever seen duelists with healing abilities on Plagueis level. The closest example is probably Cade, and he can indeed use his ability whenever he wants. Not necessarily while locking blades with an opponent, but during a duel nonetheless in the times when he's not doing so. You're saying because we never saw Plagueis use the skill in battle that it therefore isn't applicable in battle, which makes no sense. No other type of Force ability has that restriction. The fact we didn't see it in battle is simply an unfortunate result of 1) Plagueis no longer having any opponents to battle after developing the skill and 2) the fact Sidious chose not to confront him in a duel.

I'm not saying Sidious isn't powerful. Being powerful however doesn't mean i'm going to say he can get around abilities he was never shown to be able to conquer. You have yet to prove he'd be able to, and have simply said Plagueis not having used it in battle negates the possibility of it even happening, which I don't find to be a satisfactory response, so i'll keep bringing it up.

 

DarthJenari

We've hardly ever seen duelists with the abilities on Palpatine's level... I'm saying that since we've never seen any SW character heal him or herself while simultaneously fighting a very powerful opponent we shouldn't assume Plagueis is capable of such. I mean, you're basically saying that because Sidious---the most powerful Sith Lord to ever live---cannot 'get around' his midichlorian ability, Plagueis is practically invincible in a fight. If there's anyone who can defeat him, it's Sidious. While he may not have mastered the ability to control midichlorians like his master, he mastered virtually every other ability to a higher degree than Plagueis.

And there are indeed Force abilities that require full concentration, and others that require time to charge up. You are the one who needs to prove Plagueis is capable of healing himself whilst fighting an opponent as powerful as Sidious, precisely because we have not seen anyone do it before. It makes sense to assume Plagueis is no exception.

 

We've hardly seen anyone with healing abilities at Plagueis level confront someone at Palpatine's level, yes this is true. In which case, it's simply a matter of whether one chooses to believe one way or the other. And yes, i'm saying that if one Force User has a certain ability like Plagueis (Nihilus and Sion are also examples) that in a fight they are basically invincible. And you're saying because Sidious is Sidious, he'd be able to get around it. That's no different than saying because Batman's Batman, he can figure out how to defeat any opponent.

Just pointed Cade out as an example of someone being able to use a healing ability in the midst of battle, and you haven't proven that Plagueis ability requires an intense amount of concentration. (This "prove" thing can go back and forth all day by the way.) You're again saying that because a certain battle hasn't happened, that it's impossible. Sorry, I don't buy that as true, especially given the rarity of the two elements needed for said battle. (2 powerful Force Users, one with a godlike healing ability) It doesn't swing one way or the other.mThe times he used it in his novel didn't seem to require such, where he went so far as to use it again and again on Venamis without issue.

 

1. How do we know that Palpatine lacked Plagueis's healing ability?
2. The Plagueis novel gave me the impression that Palpatine became more powerful during the Windu duel.

 

ROTS when he tells Anakin only Plagueis had mastered said ability, but that the two of them together would master it. And Palpatine's need for clones via Essence Transfer. The Midi-Chlorian Manipulation was created by Plagueis after he directly rejected Palpatine's method.

 

"taught his apprentice everything he knew"

 

Revealed to be a lie during the aftermath of Windu's murder, where Palpatine says only his master had ever had the ability, right after Anakin asked to learn the power, which should've been a warning sign to Anakin and is actuall incredibly funny.

 

DarthJenari

No, not saying that he beats him because he's Sidious, like Batman is Batman. I'm saying that since Sidious becomes more powerful than Plagueis in virtually every other area of combat aside from the midichlorian manipulation (which isn't combative), he could indeed defeat him. Nihilus and Sion's abilities are in no way similar to Plagueis'. Sion cannot be killed until he decides he no longer wants to live. Nihilus actually can be killed, but it is a rather unlikely event due to his uber Force drain. He could simply Force drain the hell out of anyone who opposed him, true, but it doesn't mean he cannot be killed conventionally. The Exile killed him conventionally, because he couldn't drain her. The only thing Plagueis has got to his name in terms of 'unique abilities' such as those, is midichlorian manipulation in order to heal himself. This is not similar to the latter's abilities. He can just heal himself, that's it. It's not something that makes him invincible. Palpatine stabs him in the heart with his lightsaber, and he's dead. He's not invincible.

Cade's not incinvible, is he? Even while using his healing ability in battle, he can be killed. Well, it's no different with Plagueis. Even if he can use it to a higher degree, he can still be killed and even moreso if you consider his opponent (in this case I'm saying ROTS or post-ROTS Sidious) outmatches him in every other area of the Force. There's a reason as to why Palpatine has been stated as the most powerful Sith Lord in the mythos. He won't be losing against his former master, it just doesn't make sense or else he wouldn't be the most powerful.

And I'm not saying that because it hasn't happened it's impossible, I'm simply making an argument for Sidious to emerge as the clear victor of this fight.

 

Either comment could be a lie in my opinion, but that's just me.

 

Darth Zannah did it to Darth Bane