Books The Darth Bane trilogy

As someone who has read a fair few EU stories (but mainly those pre-ANH) I 1. really enjoyed all of the Bane novels 2. agree with what you say above. I thought Bane was fairly intelligent throughout most of the three novels, with the exception of some parts of ROT. And I also really enjoyed the references to KOTOR, really got me excited (well, until I read Revan!). I do tend to agree that there was nothing particularly detailed about the writing, but I didn't mind that, nor did I mind the fact that Bane was physically imposing. In fact, I think I much prefer Bane as the young, headstrong Sith as opposed to the older, more jaded scheming type.

For me, it felt easy to connect with the protagonist (an evil Sith) if you've gone through some of his backstory and details of his younger life.

 

IIRC in Path of Destruction Bane doesn't try to heal himself per se, he tries to "drink" the suffering of the locals to strengthen himself.

Agreed.

Beyond that, it just may be a case of apples and oranges. Plagueis is quite arrogant, and even though he considers healing to be simple, we should remember that his injury was not exactly life-threatening(by powerful Force user standards). Furthermore, he only heals himself partially, and several days later the wound is infested and shows signs of putrefaction.

Bane on the other hand had to deal with an incredibly lethal poison(in fact he senses Githany's decoy-poison and isn't worried, knowing he can purge it from his bloodstream). It's not the same as a simple flesh wound that you can patch up, it's toxins that are actively working to mess you up.

 

It's worth noting that the very next thing he says is: The light side is joy, everlasting and difficult to achieve.

Cheat Death ( applied to others ) is supposed to be dark, however.

 

Eh, the Bane books are just easy to laugh at, as they are not just simple but the epitome of childish crudity. They're not universally hated or placed among the worst of the EU, though.

In the JC Lit Reviews Specials, PoD gets a 7.32, RoT gets a 7.44 and DoE gets 7.87. Those are all decent, middle of the pack scores.

I rather enjoyed the trilogy myself, but I am fully aware of how tawdry they really are.

 

Why is that worth noting? Vader's joy wasn't everlasting.

If joy drives the dark side away, I'm wondering what the downside to Vaapad is in requiring the user to enjoy the fight. How is that passing through the penumbra of the dark side?

 

Path of Destruction was the best of the trilogy. I got it a bit later after it came out because I wasn't that interested in it and with the cancellation of Darth Plagueis it was a couple months later that I read it. What a great book the first time I read it. Very enjoyable.

 

There's also the fact that different people have different aptitudes for the Force. They'll either simply be more powerful from the get go, or have access to different skills. Again, I don't personally agree with the idea, but it has been shown to be a limitation that pretty much everyone suffers. The amount of Force Users we see who can use a variety of techniques are few and far between.

With Plagueis and Bane, as you said its like apples and oranges. One focuses more on being a warrior, and one's more of a scientist (And even Plagueis Master was a scientist at that.)

 

Where does he say that?

I tend to agree with Qui-Gon, who says otherwise ( and is consistent with the AOTC commentary ).

In Darth Plagueis, we are told that though Jedi can create a facsimile of Sith lightning ( Electric Judgment? ) they cannot wield true Sith lightning.

 

"From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn't owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It's an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood , too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will."

It's shortly before it's also revealed to us through Plagueis thoughts that he and Sidious performed a ritual to unbalance the Force.


Honestly, that entire business with Force Lightning in the novel was a load of garbage as far as i'm concerned.

 

This only indicates his belief that there were no powers beyond his reach, and he's a Sith. It doesn't say that a Force user of any alignment can access any ability, because it doesn't say that the same would hold true for a Jedi.

And he's not guaranteed to be correct in his beliefs; it works for me that the Sith of his time simply did not know there was a light side skill out there which could not be achieved by mere force of will alone.

 

Entire Quote:

"From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn't owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It's an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood , too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will."


True enough, i'm simply taking it to what I see as a logical belief to have. Seems clear to me that he believes a powerful enough Force User can do anything with the Force.

I also made it clear it's what I believe, and that it's contrasted by many others throughout the mythos, just as all ideas on the Force are. For me, more than just about any other idea, it lines up nicely with the view of the Force as infinite and unfathomable.

 

Of course, the quoted passage is specifically about the issue of "Sith sorcery" vs. dark side abilities in general, so it mostly seems to say that he feels he can do any dark side ability, through "sheer will" if necessary.

The Force can be infinite either way. As far as unfathomable is concerned, any idea predicated on trying to fathom the Force shouldn't exactly help to bolster its alleged unfathomability.

 

Eh, seems to talking just about the Force in general to me, and is only focusing on Sith Sorcery due to his disagreement with his Master.

 

Up until the last sentence, it's all about "Tenebrous was wrong when he said I wasn't cut out for Sith sorcery".

 

The past conversation with his Master leads to him revealing his present thoughts on the idea, yes.

Again, for me, the idea lines up best with the concept of the Force as being infinite and without any limitations. I even feel this way regarding Vader and his mechanical limbs, and agree with Palpatine's early thoughts that Vader could've overcome them if he'd accepted himself as he was. It also tends to be why the idea of there being levels of Force ability never really sits right with me.

 

But the Force as a whole is "infinite" even if there are side-exclusive powers.

When it comes to the issue of limitations, there is the point that SOTE made: the Force might not have limits, but Vader had limits. Arguably it can be said that any individual Force user would have limits.

 

I honestly didn't find them laughable or childish. Simplistic, yes, but not to the point of childish crudity. Honestly, KJA's works are more childish than these, and I daresay that Denning's are too (with the exception of SBS), but Denning's are in the way that they're a child's idea of an epic, dark story. Karpyshyn's, for all their simplicity, are better than that and Karpyshyn is a good storyteller, if a better game writer than author.

 

I actually enjoy Darth Bane's characterization in these books as Drew has hit on a very interesting sort of character. He's basically the antithesis of a typical Star Wars hero. He starts as a figure who cherishes friendship, love, and comes from a hard life only to achieve his destiny by forsaking all of the things he loves for raw power.

Darth Bane isn't a brute. Part of what I liked about his time in the Sith Academy was that he spent almost all of his time reading and self-study. He's un-educated but he rectifies that himself. He also proceeds to murder his love-interest, kill his friends, and slaughter everything for the selfish belief that the Dark Side should entirely be his.

To the only Sith.

It doesn't matter if his "dark side can be diluted" is true or not, what matters is it reflects HIS selfish beliefs that only HE and his chosen successor should be able to weld it. Much like Darth Malgus, the point of Darth Bane is he is monstrously driven by selfishness. Darth Bane would rather be ruler of a dead world where he's the only ruler than ruler of the galaxy with 1000 other Sith.

He's a very Milton-esque Satan.

 

I disagree, as I see that as limiting it. You're not required to agree, but that's how I see it.

SOTE is actually where I draw the basic idea from. The most important limitations that exist for any Force User are the ones they place on themselves. In Vader's case, his mental instability and inability to accept himself kept him from ever achieving his full potential.

 

Also, I think the idea that Darth Bane is the one who destroys the previous Sith because HE will turn against the others is a good thing. The Brotherhood is diluted like the Jedi Order. They know friendship, love, compassion, and espiritu du corps.

Bane reforms them by making them pure evil.

You can have a Sith Order which doesn't turn on itself, but that's diluting what it means to be a Sith. Darth Bane wants his Sith to be baby-eating psychopaths who will turn against their masters at the first sign of weakness.

 

What is limited is the toolbox available to each sect, not the Force itself. ( I guess we could say that Denning's ability to rewrite the rules is also limited. )

There's also midichlorian count; not everyone is Vader.

However, his full potential would probably have a practical upper limit even in the absence of his mental issues.

 

Yoda says the only difference is in his mind.

Every Force User can probably be God. It's just that Lightsiders wouldn't impose their will on the Force and Darksiders burn out before then.

 

I disagree, and again reiterate that the sides of the Force shouldn't matter.

Charlemagne19 summed it up nicely. Not surprising as many of us have talked about this before.

Besides basic requirement for using the Force at all, I only see Midichlorians as another limitation a user places on himself, and see in a similar light to the idea that a user needs to be hit by Force Lightning to actually use it.

 

The only difference between super-midichlorianated Luke levitating a rock and super-midichlorianated Luke levitating a ship, not the only difference between the potential of super-midichlorianated Luke and under-midichlorianated Joe Schmoe. After all, it's Luke who's there, by design, to hear the lesson in the first place, as opposed to just one of the random multitudes.

You'd have to rewrite the OT so that it doesn't place any importance on the Skywalkers.

A user does not place his own midichlorian count on himself ( unless he is powerful enough to raise his midichlorian count but for whatever reason chooses not to ).

 

It's largely an academic difference but it's a difference I think which means a lot.

Even in the OT, we also see Obi Wan (a Jedi without super midiclorianation) defeat Maul and Vader.