TV Discussion Anyone else wish Pong Krell had survived Umbara?

I could not agree more. I wholeheartedly think that the war would have disillusioned him. I imagine that his feelings are similar to those expressed by Admrail Tarkin in the Citadel arc.

 

A thing I never liked about this arc was there was no really deep investigation on just how far his treachery went, with Dooku, he spent some time still as a Jedi sabotaging the temple's computer and who knows what else. I think Krell was mentioned brieflyagain in the Tano arc of season 5 but that was pretty much it.

One of the failures of the show imo was not utilizing Sora Bulq and Tol Skorr, I think they needed more capabale and powerful dark Jedi characters, Krell was a step in the right direction but too short a reign, and same with Opress. Another failure was introducing interesting and compelling characters and getting rid of them after a few appearances or reserving their appearances for a few episodes a season to stretch it.

 

I really wish that they had given a better reason to kill Krell than intel.

 

I think Pong krill served his purpose fine.

 

Oh, it's fine he died, just the reason behind his death was pathetic.

 

Is it just me or is the music in Carnage of Krell amazing? I especially love the music during the firing squad scene and the clones vs clones and realization scene.

 

No. Four episodes with Krell were four too many.

 

This.

 

Alas - if only Prong Krell was not immersed in the Dark Side of the Force ... and if he hadn't been so dogmatic and deliberately sadistic and cruel ... just imagine what his potential and his contribution to the Republic could have been like eh?

 

Well - he did have that vision about what would happen to the Republic - something Master Yoda too didn't have the ability for and the fact how Prong Krell had a desire to join and work for Count Dooku ... surely then a Light Side Force user and Jedi for the matter by default wouldn't want that eh?

 

It probably wouldve been interesting if they made Ashoka anti-Clone a kinda against the reformation of the Republic, but she seems best buds with three Clones who have kinda cult fan following and the creators like them and its unclear what her arcs contained in the unfinished seasons of TCW but she appears still shifting towards Republic which in some ways makes her season 5 arc rather pointless cept to save her from Order 66.

 

Well, it's undeniably clear by Carnage of Krell that he's full on dark side crazy. In light of sending clones to kill each other, it's clear that he had probably been full on dark side crazy all along, at least from the beginning of the arc.

He's not dogmatic. That doesn't make any sense. He's a Jedi, and does the complete opposite of Jedi dogma. Jedi dogma would insist on him showing compassion to the clones, not creating a ruse designed to make them kill each other for the lulz. He's going his own way, and dogma is more about the establishment.

He is deliberately sadistic and cruel, and I would never want to lose that aspect of his character. Or, at least the appearance of sadistic cruelty.

The idea of him defecting to Dooku or whatever is less interesting.

The idea I like is him as The General. Not a dark Jedi, not a traitor in the waiting, not insane. Just an honest Jedi General. One who has adapted to his environment, the war. One who has become completely ruthless in his approach to the war and his use of clones as assets. Who doesn't care if clones get killed, that's their purpose and so be it. He's got a war to win.

A Jedi turned General, and all the moral complications involved. Like sacrifice. Wanton violence. Brutality. Senseless death and destruction. All that stuff. And everything that does to a person. A Jedi can literally feel death through the Force, it must be excruciatingly difficult for them to get through a war.

We didn't really see this with the Jedi in TCW. They were pretty static in that sense. They didn't lose their compassion. They were always super nice and all buddy buddy with the clones. They didn't sacrifice anyone unless they absolutely had to. They'd go out of their way to save everyone and anyone, even when maybe a General wouldn't. That doesn't really reflect their dire situation. I mean, it's okay, it's fine, but it would be cool to see a Jedi character who did start to lose grip on his compassion, getting bitter. Really start to break down. Who saw the clones as numbers coming off a factory line, assets to be expended in exchange for victory. Maybe even eventually growing to hate them or resent them. But you'd have to explain that logically, and it'd have to be good. I don't know why. It seems more like he'd hate the people who made them, rather than the clones themselves. Instead of just flat out hatred, maybe cold, impersonal indifference would be better. Not wanting to get attached to them. So he calls them by their numbers. Doesn't want to get personal. Just wants them to obey their orders, fight and die already, like the rest. Then order in the next batch. They're disposable.

Where I'm going with this, I don't know. Not sure how that would end. Probably with Order 66. It would be a more realistic example of a Jedi General, one worthy of nuanced discussion and criticism, yet also some sort of sympathy. It would be something different, at least.

 

More likely the war simply made Krell crazy as it did Barriss. Plus the temple was being bombarded by ancient Sith power that has slowly clouding and twisting the Jedi from the inside out for 1,000 years, it was a slow death and one they were not aware of but the Sith were. The Jedi were not properly trained for this kinda conflict, their training is passive and pacifist in nature much like the Republic. More and more the Jedi found themselves acting against their principals and teachings, the more they found themselves moved away from the goodside, the Lightside. They're using their knowledge and power and manipulating the lightside for war and war is death and destruction and their unknowingly serving the Dark Lord and are themselves agents of evil. The Jedi were losing the ability to use the Force, as were too dark and moved far away from the Lightside and have been active participants in shifting the scale towards the Darkside. Problem for the Jedi they were not trained in to use the Darkside, so they continued using the Lightside but it was not working properly for them as they were all corrupted and not attuned to it as they thought.

 

If this were the case, it would only be a matter of time before some bold and heroic figure likeminded to Captain Rex would have done the sane thing Rex did. But if he simply saw clones as the most expendable currency, why did he turn the clone against each other? Seems like he did just 'cuz he could.

 

Wish Pong Krell survived? No.Wished he survived long enough to have a 1 on 1 with Grievous? Yes.

 

Okay, let me go to the back of my lines so I can try the most stupid and high-casualty tactic I can conjure up, and then run away before anyone notices. Afterwards, I'll blame the failure on the incompetence of my clones. Fair?

Okay.

 

A battle between him and K'Kruhk would've been nice, rather than shot dead by a clone.

 

Okay, I'll have to back up and explain, because I'm not sure you understood that what I said had nothing to do with what happened in TCW.

First, this idea I like, him as The General, that's not the Krell we got. At all. It's not him. It's a fantasy of mine. So what actually happened on the show isn't relevant to what I was saying, to the comment you quoted.

I don't see why Rex would do what he did in this fantasy scenario of mine. In my scenario, Krell is a competent general, though cold, instead of the maniac gleefully killing clones on purpose that TCW went with. Rex did what he did because not only were clones dying, they weren't winning. They were dying for no gain. That's the key. If Krell was actually using sound (if bloody) tactics, I don't think Rex or the rest of them have the same problem following his orders. IIRC, when Krell first got there, some of the clones respected him based on his reputation. I think it was Fives who didn't like the number of casualties Krell had racked up, but IIRC Krell was also known for victories.

Hell, Rex was still pretty hesitant (though token) all the way up until Krell intentionally sent the clones to kill each other. In my fantasy (and that's what it is, a total fantasy not supported by TCW), "The General" would never, ever do that. Because he's not insane and he's not a traitor.

I'm not sure why Rex, or someone like him, would suddenly start refusing to follow orders and do their own thing (remember, in this scenario I've cooked up, the clones are winning, though at a high price). Real life soldiers don't even do this. We know real life soldiers will go into the meat grinder. Why wouldn't any clone? They already have. Plus, well, Rex (or someone like him) would have to survive long enough to get sick of it. Ridiculously, the clones started disobeying Krell in TCW almost immediately. It wasn't after months of terrible, demoralizing leadership, it was after hours of leadership that wasn't even that bad (at first). Seriously, they became insubordinate after less than one day. How absurd is this? Clone morale can't handle a single bad day?

If some clone was lucky enough to survive a long period of time under this fantasy General, and started to resent it and get disobedient...he can always be shipped off to another unit. Or brought up on charges. Legally. Or, if it's just one clone, he can be singled out as a bad example.

Another major reason the clones were able to stand up to Krell is because many of them had been together a long time, had very strong bonds, and supported each other. And they were used to different leadership, that of General Skywalker. Under this fantasy General of mine, this may not be the case. (or it may be) If it's just one clone, he may not have the support he needs to challenge the system.

Maybe, eventually, this fantasy General would have caused the clones to turn on him. I doubt it. Even if it did happen, I think it would have turned out differently. I don't think this fantasy General would turn full dark side and go on a killing spree of his own men. I don't think it would be necessary for him to be shot in the back by a clone (not until Order 66, at least). Relieved of command, maybe. Brought before the Jedi Council. Hell, maybe the clones finally standing up to him would cause The General to see the clones as more than just factory made cannon fodder. Redemption is possible if he's able to see how he was wrong. Could be an interesting ending. Maybe more interesting than Krell's ending.


The actual Krell as shown in TCW turned the clones against each other because he thought it was hilarious, because he was dark side insane. That's not my idea of The General.

Krell is a hilarious character, definitely my favorite TCW original character, second only to Ventress overall. But I think he could have been more, while retaining his hilarious attitude.

 

I see. I misunderstood

 

No problem.

There's a bit of dissonance on my part, because even I could see how this fantasy General I'm describing could turn into the actual Pong Krell we got. I suppose it could happen, with the way the dark side sometimes works in Star Wars. It just seems stupid as hell. Too far, too extreme. Completely lacking in subtlety.

Carnage of Krell, while amusing, is completely ridiculous. Even putting aside the enormous idiot ball Krell was holding because he was taking dark side pills.....the ending of the Umbara arc is more like something you would see in the KOTOR games. What Krell did was like taking the most ridiculous dark side options in KOTOR, like where you rob a poor, old, helpless lady and then Force throw her off a cliff for absolutely no reason. That's the equivalent of Krell's actions. While funny, in a completely juvenile manner, as an unimportant side quest in a video game, it's not much of an ending to an actual attempt at a story.

We don't really see this in the movies, I don't think.

Anakin has his reasons. He doesn't slaughter the younglings for laughs. He doesn't slaughter the Tuskens for laughs.

We don't see Dooku personally do anything quite as maniacal (in the movies), and I think he has his reasons for what he does.

Even Palpatine, despite all his hysterical evil laughter, has a genuine goal that isn't just insanity. And his methods can be seen as necessary for what he wants to accomplish. Yeah, he preys on young Anakin and plunges the galaxy into war, but it's not just for laughs (though I'm sure he finds it amusing), he's trying to take over the galaxy, and he's using rather intelligent (though immoral/amoral) methods to do it.

Yeah, Krell could have been driven completely insane by the war and the dark side, but it wasn't a very satisfying ending for me.

I can see how other people just see him as a bad guy who is mean to clones and deserves to be killed, and are very satisfied with that. Clearly, TCW didn't intend anything more with him.

From my point of view, the clones are the bad guys of the show, and from that perspective, Krell could be seen as a bit of a hero.

Just rambling incoherently. I haven't done this in this forum for a long time, and it feels good. Most of you newer people probably don't understand where I'm coming from, and that's very understandable, so just ignore me if it's a problem.