ST Andy Serkis (Supreme Leader Snoke) in Episode VII

His absence during two trilogies?

 

I know they've named him Snoke, but I'm trying to ignore that right now.

 

I don't see that as a stumbling block at all.


In making the decision on what villain to choose, the creators had to know that almost anything they choose could easily end up feeling like it's subpar compared to Palpatine. What better way do sidestep that problem than to make the villain Palpatine's old master? The guy who taught Palpatine everything he knew. It would also go a long way in connecting the entire saga together, from I through IX.


And there's already a built-in backstory about how he can cheat death. His knowledge was the primary factor in Anakin turning to the dark side in the first place.


I dunno, it might not be Plagueis but I can definitely see why the creators would think that angle is a good story-telling choice.

 

I know. After the subtle linguistic delicacies that were Count Dooku and General Grievous, Supreme Leader Snoke is just downright vulgar!

 

Good point. It'll just take some getting used to.

 

I like that concept. If Snoke is really old and has just been laying low, "underground" for decades, his look could echo those eye-less animals that literally live underground. He could have cool Zatoichi-esque fighting moves too.

 

Snoke isn't Plagueis because:

- Sidious killed him
- Sidious is confident that he killed him and Sith can sense each other
- There can be only two Sith at a time and they both died in ROTJ
- He has a different name
- Plagueis is too obscure of a reference, an unseen character in a scene designed to entice Anakin
- Episode 7 is far too informed by the OT that it's likely that PT references will be very few
- Plagueis is too associated with midichlorians. No way KK, JJ and LK go there.

 

Sidious said he killed him. At one point, Obi Wan said Vader murdered Luke's father. It's easy to write around those things, and SW does it a lot.

There can only be two known Sith at a time during ROTJ. Plagueis was strong enough to conceal his existence, even to other Sith.

Having multiple names would be in line with the saga: Palpatine/Sidious, Dooku/Tyrannus, etc. The Sith do that.


Not to be rude but this is really the only point I see as a real (ie. creators' perspective) obstacle:

 

One problem with Plagueis is that we know that Serkis' character is named Snoke. Why would Plagueis need to go by an alias? Who, out of all the characters around in the ST timeframe would even know who Plagueis was?

It's not as if Snoke is trying to conceal his malicious nature from anyone. From what we understand of TFA's story, he seems to be very openly committed to the Darkside cause, and probably responsible for any number of atrocities by the time the movie begins. Why wouldn't he just call himself Supreme Leader Plagueis?

 

Why did Darth Tyrannus need an alias? No one called him that but his master.

 

Same reason as anyone who uses an alias - to keep his identity a secret in case word of his activities reached the Jedi.

 

Jango Fett referred to him as Tyrannus when Obiwan was questioning him on Kamino

 

Snoke could be another Sith Lord (the original rumour was Darth Ruin), who managed to cheat death. Sidious, when telling Vader about the only Sith to cheat death, never actually refered to who that person was. We just assumed it was Plagueis8.

Note: I still have membership of thevillianwillbeplagueis club

 

Based on the rumors out there about his appearance and the rumors about The Ancient Fear being considered for the name of the film previously I think Snoke will turn out to be an original Sith pure blood that either the First order awakened somehow (most likely) or he was awoken by Kylo Ren on his own. And if that is the case he is definitely the big baddie and there won't be some other Sith Lord brought back. I think he is pretty much guaranteed to be a Sith with actors that appear in the movie saying they are playing a Sith General even though we know that means First Order General.

 

Thank you, couldn't remember what episode arc that was, or the species name.

I don't disagree with you at all. That said, when you're relying on second or third hand info, he could have been describing it as it was described to him.

Just though it was of interest that there was a race with a Cobra like head in TCW.

 

Snap

 

Recall the comment from Admiral Motti in ANH, 35 or so years prior toTFA: "Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient Jedi religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you enough clairvoyance to find the rebels' hidden fortress..."

The Jedi were all but a faded memory at the time of ANH. In the OT, no one knew the Emperor was secretly Darth Sidious and that, along with his apprentice Vader, was a Sith Lord - in fact, at the time of the OT, none of us knew they were both Sith. It was not until Episode I, TPM, that the term 'Sith' was introduced in the films. So following the OT story arc, Supreme Leader Snoke does not necessarily require a Sith or Darth designation . . . yet. Nor does Ren. That said, as JJ proved in the Star Trek reboot and Khan sequel, he is a tried and true stickler for canon. But the canon JJ follows may be decidedly more OT than PT, since that storyline is closest to the events in TFA.

I'd like to think in TFA that Luke still has a controlled element of the Dark Side still lurking within him. After all, his father was literally conceived by the Force. The Force has both light and dark aspects, and so it was with Luke's father Anakin, whose character arc followed a "Jedi - Sith - Jedi" path. Luke somehow overcame the fear, the anger and his own suffering, as well as the temptations offered by both his father and the Emperor. As the saying goes, "experience is the best teacher." Luke understands the Dark Side like no other Jedi, save for his late, redeemed father. If the Dark Side has awakened, Luke has felt it.

Serkis' "awakening" question in the first trailer might be a subtle clue to how his character, along with Luke's, will play out. "There has been an awakening. Have you felt it? The Dark Side, and the Light!". As others have discussed, we do not know Snoke's back-story. As with Luke, Snoke's past may somehow allow him to understand both sides of the Force, which could set up a very interesting chess match between Luke and Snoke as the trilogy progresses.

As the Star Wars films prove, the Force is always full of surprises.

 

Well, we know from ROTS that Plagueis could keep those he loved from dying, but there's no evidence he could cheat death himself at the hands of Sidious, and in the latest canon on the subject Tarkin, Sidious thinks Plagueis is dead.

So I don't see a good reason to believe Plagueis survived Sidious' attack. None of the new canon materials have suggested otherwise. He makes no appearance in TCW, Rebels, comics, or novels. If the Story Group wanted fans to believe he might be alive, there'd be some hints or evidence given. In Tarkin, for instance, they would have shown Sidious wondering if Plagueis might have survived, but they don't.

It was an interesting possibility at one time, but as things have progressed, there doesn't seem to be a shred of evidence that supports it.

 

To play devil's advocate - maybe the story group want the fans to believe he's dead?

EDIT: And maybe he is, but until we know who Snoke really is, leave me with my theories

 

Stories don't work that way. If you plan on using a character, you hint at it. You develop the possibility. You don't ignore the subject completely, or even have Sidious seem totally untroubled.

 

OK, you're the writer, not me.

But it would be a way to throw a curve ball into the mainstream movies to make the hardcore fans think he's dead and there's no chance of him appearing. Bit boring to have everything painted out for you with no surprises, even if it is just with hints.

 

Let's follow the logic of the curve ball metaphor. The batter still sees the pitcher on the mound, and for the curve ball to work, the pitcher first needs to establish the fastball.

In other words, for Plagueis to really function as you suggest, as a surprise, there would need to be some establishing hints or possibilities created. If not, it's not an actual surprise, but a complete shock out of left field, which is the worst kind of writing.

So Tarkin would have been the perfect opportunity for the Story Group to show Sidious uncertain about Plagueis's death, but they didn't do it. Why not?

Logic suggests they didn't because it's not a possibility they're going with.

 

I don't even follow or watch baseball

EDIT: Got a question, but I'm not sure if I'm derailing now.
How is a surprise fair or unfair?

My mum wants to throw a surprise party for my brother. If I hint at the birthday party for my brother it will lessen the surprise, maybe even ruin the surprise. If I say nothing at all the surprise will be greater, logically speaking.

So which logic would be correct?

 

Does that mean you don't understand the difference between a curve ball and a monster appearing from nowhere out of left field?

Basically, you seem to be arguing for a deus ex machina. All evidence points against Plagueis, and therefore he must pop up from nowhere for it to be a surprise.

Good storytelling demands some fairness at play for fans to be surprised and not shocked with irrational developments.

EDIT: StoneRiver I think I already answered your question of fairness by bringing up the deus ex machina.

But how does it relate to a surprise birthday party? Well, in general people grow up in a culture where a surprise birthday party either is or isn't a possibility. Say you grow up in Culture Z where the concept doesn't exist. How then would it be possible for someone to be surprised when they wouldn't even understand what was taking place? They'd be shocked and confused. That's not the effect you want with a Plagueis reveal.

Now in Culture A, where surprise parties are something people understand, then people can actually be surprised by them. They walk in and hear "Surprise" and it makes sense to them. It's not an irrational development.

You follow my logic now? If you want Plagueis to be an authentic surprise and not a confusing shock, then there should be some hints or possibility created that creates a sufficient context for viewers.

The latest info we have on Plagueis is Sidious thinking, yeah, he's dead. For anyone here to be able to reasonably consider Plagueis, I think you must wait for some kind of hints or development in the upcoming Journey to TFA content.