PT Would it have been better to have Anakin and Obi-Wan friends from the start?

Like in Episode I, instead of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, we'd have Obi-Wan and Anakin? Maybe resort Qui Gon to another member of the Jedi Council who happens to be sort of a father figure to Obi-Wan. You know, someone who would always looks after him.

Anakin and Obi are like really good friends and stuff, Obi being the more reckless, naive Master who's always getting him and his partner Anakin into dangerous, thrilling adventures. It could be explained that they bonded because of this, Obi seeing a little of himself in Anakin.

So then, at the end, we'd have the old man killed because of Obi's recklessness, and he is forced to grow up or risk killing more people. Maybe he could start getting more strict with Anakin, fearing he could end him dead as well.

I feel that would give Anakins frustration with Obi in Episode II believable you know. Well, not like how we got in that movie, but maybe more passive. Like he begins to rebel, and starts befriending other people who understand him *wink, wink* Palpatine. They begin to disagree on some things, have a huge fight where Obi is forced to make a really hard decision, even though it being the right one, leaving Anakin bitter and angry at his old friend. Anakin could like leave the Council, and then boom: couple of days later, DARTH VADER.

Well, you know, not in the suit just yet. Also, they happens in Episode III (Anakins leaving, and emerging evil)

What do you think?

 

I think we had to have the Qui-Gonn story play out as it did though - the tragedy being that Qui-Gonn was the one who discovered Anakin and believed in him when the Council did not, but it took his death for them to accept Anakin (even reluctantly.) There is also the fact that it seems to me had Qui-Gonn lived, he would have taken on a more fatherly role than Obi-Wan could (being the different ages they are of course), Palpatine would never have got his hooks into Anakin, the whole thing could have been avoided.
Quite apart from which, Qui-Gonn's belief in living in the moment every moment as it comes was the one tendency Obi-Wan DIDN'T adopt to any noticeable degree - QG was the only Jedi we saw who didn't try and interpret the will of the Force as something to be anticipated and analysed, but simply to BE, where the Council would try and work out the potential future ramifications, Qui-Gonn would have done what felt right at that moment, and dealt with the consequences only in the moment they occurred. If the young Anakin could have learned that, the whole prophecy wouldn't have been such a weight on his shoulders (he would fulfil it simply by being himself, not trying to be some ideal hero) and he wouldn't have formed such attachments to the likes of Padme, I feel.

Your idea is good, and I'd definitely be interested in seeing a version that plays out that way as an alternative universe, but for the canon timeline Qui-Gonn is integral to Anakin's entire journey and should stay that way, for me.

 

I agree with you. The relationship dynamics between Qui-Gon, Anakin and Obi-Wan were very interesting to me.

 

Your intention by creating this post is clear : you want Anakin to be the perfect Chosen One, a little bit like Neo in fact. But it cannot do. If so, the Empire, Luke and all the OT has no sense.

 

Yes, I think it would have been better if the PT had started with Anakin and Obi Wan as friends, and Anakin being near the tail end of his Jedi training. I like the character of Qui Gon, but I would have just kept him as one of the great Jedi of the period, not Obi Wan's master or the one who discovered Anakin.

 

At least have more interaction between the two in TPM. Being introduced halfway through the movie and then not to be seen interacting again until the end of the movie is not good imo. So much wasted potential imo.

 

No, it was perfect the way it was shown and makes sense of the words Obi-Wan used to describe Anakin and Vader to Luke.

 

Good thoughts you have there, but it certainly wouldn't have worked. First off, Ani would be a completely different person- he wouldn't feel love, if he had grown up with Obi-Wan. Obi would have helped Ani shut out his feelings right away, and so Luke and Leia wouldn't be born.
Admin: I like your reasoning, but wouldn't that change the story waaay too much? It's a cool idea for a discussion, but most likely a long shot from success. But who knows, maybe the new movie will introduce some new characters that have the spoken relationship of this forum.

 

I'm going to say no, because that is what I had assumed we would have gotten- the way it played out was way more unexpected and interesting, IMO. I never thought that Anakin was pretty much Obi-Wan's inherited child/ little brother. I loved that aspect.

 

wasn't an early Lucas script like that ? with Obi the one who discovers Anakin etc. and QGJ more a secondary character ?

 

I definitely agree. Have Kenobi already the young,somewhat naive Master training Anakin who is already around 20 years old.

To Miss _Padme : I'd have this be the first time Anakin feels love. Having to help Padme (who would also have to be older), he grows to have affection for her, even the same thing with his obsession between Episodes I and II. He doesn't have to be the Chosen One - just a very powerful Jedi who suddenly and unexpectedly falls in love with a Queen who he and his Master were sent to help. And not knowing how to deal with these feelings, these wants, leads him down a dark path. Obi-Wan thought he could train him just as well as Yoda, to purge all feelings of want and greed, of fear and anger. He was wrong.

 

Would it have been better to have Anakin and Obi-Wan friends from the start?
They are friends from the start. You're supposed to watch Episode III first.

 

Not that much of the possibility, in my opinion, their relationship would've always
remained one of Master-Padawan, because Obi-Wan was by far the more strict
teacher to Anakin than Qui-Gon was to Obi-Wan... Qui-Gon was a bit of the rebel,
even in his advanced age, he was the one who thought that the rules of the Order
were not to be interpreted literally like Obi-Wan thought, and Qui-Gon would probably
have been more lenient towards Anakin's love towards Padme, considering the fact
that Qui-Gon almost have had passed to the Dark Side when Jedi Master Tahl, who
he loved, died...

 

Nope. The presence of Qui-Gon was important in the story.
And with him we can see Obi-Wan too as an apprentice.

 

I'll agree with the others who disagree with that assertion. In that I belive Qui-Gon's presence added some both interesting and unexpected shading to their relationship.

 

I like how Qui-Gon's death set-up the idea of Obi-Wan simply training Anakin to fulfill his master's dying wish. My only complaint is that this particular plot point wasn't paid off. I wish it had been brought up in AOTC or ROTS as a way of creating some dramatic tension between the two whereby Anakin might feel hurt for learning why his master is even training him and Obi-Wan might try to insist that despite this initial motivation, he's actually grown quite fond of Anakin. It could even be something that Palpatine might reveal to Anakin as a way to form a rift between him and Obi-Wan.

 

Qui-Gon is completely critical to the PT. Had he not existed, Anakin would've never joined the Order.

Let me elaborate: the Jedi Order had a very straight and narrow path they were fixed on, one that initially could not intertwine with the path that Anakin was on, this being due to the Order's unwillingness to go off script and defy the Code. They were simply immovable and inflexible, and no one would've ever considered brining in a child who was not indoctrinated from infancy - except for Qui-Gon. Qui Gon was the exception that wasn't as stuffy or stringent as his kin. His job was to merge the paths of the Order and Anakin together even if it meant breaking tradition and long upheld values, because "he is the Chosen One". Then, once Qui Gon's killed, the tragedy of these films is practically perpetuated, since Anakin required an unorthodox teaching and mentorship that the Jedi couldn't offer him, one that was personable and lenient in his eyes, rather than alienating and insensitive.

 

Obiwan and Anakin should have been shown to have bonded better and then have had some make-or-break incident (involving jealousy perhaps, or a decision made by Obiwan that Anakin couldn't understand) that lead to a break down of their relationship that spiraled into #vadergate #windugate #cullingofyounglingsgate and #order66gate.

I think that they should never have put Obiwan or Anakin on the council... Or at least not have made Obiwan a master.

 

I agree with this.

I liked Qui-Gon and would still keep him in the story as I do think he's essential. However Kenobi and Anakin needed much more interactions in the film and in the trilogy as a whole. ROTS is the only film were we saw them acting as friends but even then I personally feel we needed more IMO.

 

I agree with posters that say it's fine at it is. The Qui-Gon subtext was necessary, I feel. Also what is not often mentioned is that having Qui-Gon in there allows us to see just how not ready Obi-Wan is to train Anakin. Which is hugely important. And also why Obi-Wan decided to stick with and train Anakin above and beyond Yoda's wishes -- to fulfill Qui-Gon's request. Plus, all of this again goes back to the image people have of what Anakin was like, versus what he actually was. For me, it makes perfect sense that a young Darth Vader and Obi-Wan would have an at-first distant relationship, then rocky but connected, then affectionate, respectful, & ultimately tragic. I think it played out pretty darn well.

It hurts so much more knowing that Anakin and Obi-Wan earned their friendship with each other, and then it just was all pissed away at the end. Much more tragic. If they had just been instant friends, it would have held less weight (looking at you, TFA), and though it would have been likable it would have been harder to believe their fight, and even then we would expect them to become friends again afterwards (example: Sam and Frodo in ROTK). Which, of course, didn't happen until long after Kenobi's death. Much more interesting (and realistic, I think) the way it is.

 

I’ve actually skimmed one of the early drafts of THE PHANTOM MENACE, and while it keeps the same basic plotline of the final movie, it really does work so much better. The big difference is that Obi-Wan Kenobi is the main character of the film, and his actions drive the story. The Liam Neeson is still there, but he doesn’t show up until they get to the BLADE RUNNER city planet. He’s just sort of introduced as an old friend of Obi-Wan’s, and he’s actually quite skeptical about training Anakin, which Obi-Wan really pushes for in this version. As a result, it arguably has less impact when Darth Maul kills him at the end, but I think it would’ve served the overall story better. It also would’ve been so much more consistent with “When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot, but I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.” In this version, Obi-Wan comes off as more rebellious than he does in the final version. In fact, Obi-Wan has a lot of the same characteristics Neeson had in the final version, in the sense of being this rebellious hippie type who frequently defies and butts heads with the Council.

Most importantly, Obi-Wan is the one to discover Anakin in this version (the Neeson character hasn’t even been introduced yet in this version of the script). As I recall, Anakin is a bit older in this draft (about 14 or 15), which makes it a bit more believable, in my opinion. Anakin in this version is also much wiser and more mature than in the final film. The podrace is still there, and demonstrates to Obi-Wan “how strongly the Force was with him”, but more than that, Anakin’s maturity and insight beyond his years really compel him to train Anakin as a Jedi. In this version that the decision to train Anakin really isn’t about some vague prophecy that the audience never hears. We really see a bond form between the two characters in this version, and we really see them develop a mutual fondness and respect for each other, and it actually has a real tragic undercurrent lying right beneath the surface since the audience already knows how this will eventually end.

There are many other ways in which this initial draft is better than the final version as well. For example, while Jar Jar Binks is still childlike and a bit of a simpleton, he doesn’t come across anywhere near as obnoxious as he does in the final product. He’s actually somewhat sympathetic, and less of a slapstick buffoon and perpetual screwup. He’s just a bit naive, although he has a bit of innate wisdom that the characters initially overlook. He also talks like an actual person in this version, which probably would’ve reduced the criticism he got quite significantly.

Another improvement is that the bad guys, before invading, try subtly manipulating the planet’s population into revolting against the Queen’s “tyranny”, and pretend to be some sort of liberation army. In fact, many of the Queen’s subjects are shown to believe that the whole blockade crisis, and the resulting “chaos and starvation”, is largely her fault due to her refusal to negotiate with the green guys and the fact that she doesn’t take any action towards ending this crisis. There’s also a side plot where the Emperor wants the green guys to arrange an “unfortunate accident” for the Queen, but the green guys refuse to go along with it, because they believe that they need her alive in order to maintain control of the planet, and also to maintain the ruse of legitimacy. I really like this because it shows that they’re actually independent, competent beings, rather than the moronic, unthinking stooges of the final version. It also shows more racial animosity between the Goongas and the humans of the planet (for example, the Queen is very angry about Obi-Wan’s decision to bring Jar Jar on the blockade runner), which I think gives greater resonance to the ending when they put their differences aside at the end to defeat the occupation. It even gives Jar Jar a legitimate reason to go along with Obi-Wan on Tatooine instead of just keeping put on the ship (the Queen insists that he “take that thing that’s stinking up the ship” with him). Obi-Wan is also shown to suspect that there’s something more going on than what seems apparent, stating that he believes that the green guys are in cahoots with some higher-ups in the Republic.

Really, this initial draft was better than the final version in nearly every way except one. The only element of this draft that the final version actually improves on is that the Emperor’s plan is actually better fleshed out and makes more sense. In the early draft, it’s just sorta stated at the end of the film, “Oh, and the Emperor became President of the Republic”, whereas the final version does do a better job of actually showing that process. But aside from that, I actually think George Lucas’s initial draft was actually pretty good, and would’ve made a far better film than what we ended up with.

 

No, because then we would not have gotten to see HOW they became such good friends. It's one thing to hear of their shared grief for Qui-Gon, another to see the situation pan out in front of us

 

I think the way Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship was presented in the PT is possibly the best thing about the entire saga, for me. I love it because it's so different, and it has layers, and I find it compelling and fascinating and absolutely heartbreaking. They are thrown together under these crazy, tragic circumstances: they've both lost a "parent", they both have more or less no idea what they're doing, there's this already-present resentment/jealousy on Obi-Wan's part because he was basically getting thrown over for Anakin right before Qui-Gon died. And then we see them in this uncomfortable middle phase, where they have a mutual respect and regard for each other but Anakin is an awkward teenager who wants to be his own person and Obi-Wan is feeling somewhat unappreciated/disrespected, and finally we see them as two grown adults who have been through absolute hell together, with this very tight bond that would lead either of them to literally thrown down their lives for the other, and it's a bond that's utterly shattered in the most traumatic way.

I think their relationship in the PT makes their relationship in the OT even more tragic and interesting, too. It hues every single thing either of them say or do about the other with this extra tinge of "would have, should have, could have, might have been."

Lucas could have just shown us two bros bro-ing it up and Fighting The Bad Guys for 3 movies. But he didn't. I personally think it was the right choice.

 

I won't spell out a full counter-argument here, but I'd refer those interested in one to check out Cryogenic's worthwhile post here:

Overall, is the rough draft perhaps a bit tighter as a story? Perhaps. But I don't think the rough draft, as it stands, is as interesting or expansive in relation to itself, nor is it to the rest of the franchise, as the final film. Just my personal opinion.

 

For me, the final film is sort of this cluttered mess that never really comes together. I do think that if he’d stuck with that draft, and just polished it up a bit (like clarifying the Emperor’s role in all this), the final film would’ve been much better received.